byez

Anyone used water instead of saefoam/mazda zoom? Any precautions with doing this on a rotary? Did you suck it through the vacuum lines or mist it through the intake manifold?

Thanks

Rote8

Does Water/Methanol count?

GaMEChld

For some reason, putting water in the inside of the engine seems wrong somehow. Maybe it would be an ineffective cleaning and pointless. Maybe it would do something bad. I don't know, but it doesn't sound right to me.

byez

http://www.files.thinksitout.com/Alt...f%20engine.pdf

If the water was sold in a can for $100, then would you trust it?

robrecht

It has been done for many years with great success in piston engines. You just have to be a little careful about avoiding hydrolock. I've done it on my Miata but not yet on a rotary. The theory behind it is quite simple. Since water doesn't burn and does not compress it has very effective bombastic force inside the cylinders in knocking off built up carbon deposits. I like to use seafoam for a piston soak, when it has a chance to soften up the carbon over time, but I'm not convinced it does as good a job as water when you just feed it into a running engine and it burns up immediately in tons of smoke.

My only hesitancy in doing this on a rotary is that I've heard that Mazda engineers express disapproval of traditional decarboning because they believe that it merely causes hard carbon deposits to break off and get lodged elsewhere in harmful places. This is what Sleepy-z has said in a couple of his threads. Of course there is a TSB for using Seafoam but note that it includes some soaking IIRC.

greg985

haha just b/c something cost alot doesnt mean it works no0b

byez

reading & comprehension "no0b"

GaMEChld

Interesting link you provided. However, rotary engines can be fickle sometimes. We already have flooding issues, which I hear is due to liquid gasoline in the engine diluting the oil film on the internals causing the engine to no longer seal properly while cranking it, so I just wonder if something similar might happen if using water. No clue. Anyone know the mechanics behind how that zoom-power engine cleaner or Seafoam works on the carbon deposits?

byez

I just purchased a used rx8 which had a "mature" owner, I really don't think he brought it up to redline that often. i am a bit worried about accumulated deposits.

I am just wondering which works best to remove carbon:
1. water/zoom/seafoam
2. redlining it above 7000 for a few minutes
3. running an injector cleaner through the gas tank

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

if i were you i would take it to a racetrack and thrash the living s**t out of it .
Fun too

robrecht

I would follow the TSB and use Zoom or Seafoam (same stuff) and let it soak for a while. Best to disconnect the cat first.

I would also run 3-4 ounces of FP+ in a tank and then use 1-2 oz each tank after that. FP+ has cyclohexanone in it, which is supposed to break down carbon into a graphite lubricant. Lots of us add it to our premix in every tank.

Definitely redline it every day. Track is a great idea just for the fun of it as well.

Chevron Techron is a good fuel injector cleaner but don't use it too much or too frequently as it may tend to break down your oil films. One guy here used it monthly and ended up needing to have his engine replaced. Not sure if that was the cause, of course, but everything else was 100% stock and I'm cautious--use it in my Miata but not in my rotary.

GaMEChld

I cleaned with the Chevron stuff once, then shortly after started treating with FP+ (a couple initial shock doses of 2-3 oz's followed by a steady dose of 1.5-2 oz per tank in premix). Will do my first zoom-power cleaning in the Spring or so, when I don't have to worry if my car will start in this cold weather.

Icemark

Unlike a piston engine, you can not Hydrolock a rotary engine. It was originally designed to be a pump, not an engine.



but back on subject:

I have cleaned out rotary engines for the last 20 years using water in the intake. On a warm/hot engine, simply find a vac line that feeds both intake runners (usually right after the throttle body plates) and hook that right up to a gallon of distilled/purified water with a 1/8 or 3/16 ID tube, and run the motor at 4000 rpm. When the gallon is gone, your motor will be sparkling clean.

Also great to do right before rebuilding because it makes cleaning everything on the rotor faces 1000 times easier.


.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

i ran a gallon through mine in 6 miles one time! i have a water meth system---car didnt even studder!
OD

GaMEChld

Ah, well thats useful to know guys. Good stuff.

byez

Any particular line to use on the RX8? Is disconnecting the cat necessary? Any precautions when performing this procedure?

I assume this is a two man job considering the e-throttle and the inability to play with the intake butterfly from under the hood.

I would also assume that an oil change after this procedure would be in your engine's best interest. Or would a hard run evaporate any moisture in the oil?

Rote8

Have you tried running straight distilled water?
The water doesn't cool the intake manifold like the methanol does, but it does make the engine run smooth.
I am now back to Boost-Juice and running 100ml before the S/C and 225ml after the I/C.

My RWHP has got to be taking a hit from that amount of water-methanol, but the car runs great.

I need to get to a dyno soon with my kit of injection nozzles, as cold as it is now, I will blow away the 300RWHP. (maybe hit 320)

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

yea i have done that--i have also added the HEET(methenol) bottles to distill water and ran that. Boost juice is the best. i am staying with the 100/60 nozzles for now.
On air temp measuring--make sure the temp probe is sticking past the adaptor as far as it can--otherwise the probe itself will not be subjected to the airflow itself and it will give you false readings.
OD

Icemark

The cat and exhaust will get very hot, but no reason to remove either.

I have not done it on a Reni yet, but I suppose you could run the line from the motor to the passengers compartment and have the water there so you could start the car, then dunk the tube into the gallon so that the engine sucks it out from there.

Red Devil

Rotary owners have done it for decades. Not a thing wrong with it.

If you're going to do it, be sure to do it BEFORE an oil change as you will experience some dilution into your oil system as a result. The guys at Pineapple basically recommend it at every oil change.

Nubo

They are solvents.

Water-decarboning works differently; the water turning to steam on contact with hot surface flakes off the carbon.

Nubo

Edit: I've since been edumacated and I agree with this message.

Renesis07

iTrader: (1)

wow, is there a DIY for this. Ive never used water to clean the engine but I would love to do this with my 8. If someone would PM me with detailed instructions, I would greatly appreciate it.

Icemark

I'll write one up and post it here

Icemark

Okay... if you say so.

You can't get enough water in a rotary to hydrolock it... is that better??? It will still move, and rotate...

Unlike a piston motor, which will get to the point where you can not continue the pistons upwards movement because the water is compressed to the point where it changes the viscosity. And you will not be able to open a intake or exhaust valve to release it. That is Hydro locked.

and it is a myth that should be covered in your high school physics class that water is not compressible.

Check this out...
The water that is at the bottom of the ocean is compressed by the weight of the water at the top, therefore the water near the ocean floor is denser than the water at the surface.

But here is some real science:

If you compressed water in some type of laboratory setting using a metallic sphere made of copper which was heated to extreme temperature to expand then dumped into a pool of water, the gap left open to fill the sphere with water would close over from the coolness of being dropped into a liquid cooler than the solid which would lead to the sphere shrinking and the water inside becoming compressed.

Whew.

So as water is compressed, density increases. The property is known as "bulk modulus". Water is compressible, but being a liquid it is nearly incompressible (which is where your statement comes from I guess). The amount it can be compressed is defined by the bulk modulus.

See this hyperphysics link: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/permot3.html

{edit} and this one: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...mpress.html#c1 {end edit}