Cumulative Synthetic Oil Discussion
#801
The only "true" synthetic oils are those in the API Group V. Most of the easy oils to point out with that grouping are any of the 0w oils.
There's a lot of truth there. I wish that Mazda would be upfront about their reasoning besides the usual "don't do it cause we say NO" crap. People might be more receptive to reasons rather than the pimp slap of dealerships.
In respect to dino oils, if they didn't work they wouldn't be around. The market would have forced these people out of business.
One of the main aspects of synthetic oil is it's resistance to heat which is why people often suggest using it for long term high speed driving. It's more resistant to breaking down under extreme temperatures. However, in the case of OMP injection it could prove to be an issue when being burned in combustion.
I've suggested it till the cows come home but I honestly believe that the sohn adapter is the best $100 you can spend for your RX8. I'm hoping soon we'll have some actual pictures of a rotary engine using nothing but 2 cycle injection on a turbo motor to show whether or not there are benefits.
The adapter also allows you to run whatever oil you want without having to worry about whether or not it will burn correctly.
I've decided to go with the 0w oils because I wanted as much oil flow at startup as possible. I daily drive my vehicle so there are lots of cold starts. With the hot Phoenix summers I need the 40w or 50w protection cause of heat and my lead foot.
In respect to dino oils, if they didn't work they wouldn't be around. The market would have forced these people out of business.
One of the main aspects of synthetic oil is it's resistance to heat which is why people often suggest using it for long term high speed driving. It's more resistant to breaking down under extreme temperatures. However, in the case of OMP injection it could prove to be an issue when being burned in combustion.
I've suggested it till the cows come home but I honestly believe that the sohn adapter is the best $100 you can spend for your RX8. I'm hoping soon we'll have some actual pictures of a rotary engine using nothing but 2 cycle injection on a turbo motor to show whether or not there are benefits.
The adapter also allows you to run whatever oil you want without having to worry about whether or not it will burn correctly.
I've decided to go with the 0w oils because I wanted as much oil flow at startup as possible. I daily drive my vehicle so there are lots of cold starts. With the hot Phoenix summers I need the 40w or 50w protection cause of heat and my lead foot.
#802
Registered
http://www.mazda.co.jp/service/parts...e_renesis.html
In case you speak Googlese:
SHINSERENESHISU is, RENESIS Akira Makoto Mazda is dedicated to oil. ベースオイルはPAO※を主成分としてエステルを配合した100%化学合成油であり、RENE SISに適し た性状のものを採用しています。 Base oil is a combination of PAO ※ ester as a main component is a 100% synthetic oil, RENESIS uses for the property.
粘度はスポーツカーのエンジンに求められる走行性能に適した0W-30に設定しています。
※PAO:Polyalpha-Olefin(ポリアルファオレフィン)の頭文字をとった化学合成物質 ※ PAO: Polyalpha-Olefin (polyalphaolefin) synthetic material taken from the initials of
エンジンの耐摩耗性とRE(ロータリーエンジン)スポーツカーとしての走りを両立させるREN ESIS用オ イルとして開発されたのがシンセレネシスです。 And engine wear resistance of RE (rotary engine) to run both as a sports car is the Renesis SHINSERENESHISU has been developed as an oil.
RENESISではカーボンデポジットの生成によるガスシール性能の悪化が懸念されるため、これまで合成油 の使用を推奨していませんでした。 Renesis to be hurt by gas sealing performance of carbon deposit formation, did not recommend the use of synthetic oil before.
シンセレネシスは、合成油としての高い耐摩耗性を発揮しながら、今までの合成油ではなしえなか ったカーボン デポジットの大幅な低減を実現していますので、RE(ロータリーエンジン)スポーツカーとして の走りをフル に発揮させながら、エンジンの耐久性を高めることができます。 SHINSERENESHISU, while demonstrating a high resistance to wear as a synthetic oil, so to achieve a major reduction in the carbon deposit had ever talking with synthetic oil, RE (rotary engine) sports car ran as while the full exercise can improve the durability of the engine.
#803
If you read that translation carefully, it says the oil is "PAO". A quick googling turned up this:
I also came across this tidbit:
The word Synthetic is confusing; it describes a process, not a material. For example, White sand is synthesized into glass, but glass is never called "synthetic sand". Most people think that all synthetic oils are made of the same base, This is wrong! For most of the USA, there are mainly two types of synthetic oils (or as we like to say, synthetics are designer oils).
The most common is a PAO, short for poly-alpha-olefine, or easier to understand, it is synthesized petroleum oil. It is refined in a special process, or in simple words "synthesized". It still starts out by being pumped out of the ground. PAO’s are better than regular petroleum oil for handling heat, oxidation, low temperature startups and higher film strength. Drawback: PAO and petroleum are dynamic types of oil, you have to build up oil pressure and have rotation before a film is produced. Better said, you have to hydroplane the engine parts like you hydroplane a car in the rain, to create a film (or in the case of water-skiing, you have to build speed for the skier to get up and plane on the water). PAO’s are not very expensive because they are made from crude oil and produced in large quantities. You can usually tell when PAO’s are the main ingredient used as the cost of the 100% synthetic oil is less than $7.00 per quart.
The other main type of synthetics are synthetic esters, (diester, polyolesters, polyesters and complex esters). Motul® uses esters in its products. Esters are mostly made of vegetables, minerals, and animal fatty acids. Motul’s® esters contain a lot of coconut derivatives. Esters are much more expensive because the ingredients all have to be collected from natural resources and synthesized (a very expensive process) in smaller quantities. Esters have all the advantages of a PAO but more of them. Esters can handle heat better than PAO’s and when burned, esters leave far less coking deposits. Esters are static types of oils and are attracted to metal parts with an electro-chemical bond. This means no more metal to metal start ups. This also means that a film is there before the oil pressure light goes out preventing premature wear of high-stressed parts like cam lobes. The film created is up to 5 times stronger then petroleum oil.
The number one reason to run an ester synthetic oil is bond. The electro-chemical bond is made because the ester molecule is polar. Sort of like a refrigerator magnet. It is attracted to metal and sticks.The PAO molecules are neutral and act like a piece of plastic placed on the fridge. They just fall off. All commercial jet plane flying, use an ester synthetic of some type and not a PAO. You need to run an ester of some sort for maximum protection.
There are some companies calling level 3 petroleum base stocks synthetic. This oil is a good Petro oil. But it is not what we call a synthetic. The end result is that some oils are labeled incorrectly and are very inexpensive.
The most common is a PAO, short for poly-alpha-olefine, or easier to understand, it is synthesized petroleum oil. It is refined in a special process, or in simple words "synthesized". It still starts out by being pumped out of the ground. PAO’s are better than regular petroleum oil for handling heat, oxidation, low temperature startups and higher film strength. Drawback: PAO and petroleum are dynamic types of oil, you have to build up oil pressure and have rotation before a film is produced. Better said, you have to hydroplane the engine parts like you hydroplane a car in the rain, to create a film (or in the case of water-skiing, you have to build speed for the skier to get up and plane on the water). PAO’s are not very expensive because they are made from crude oil and produced in large quantities. You can usually tell when PAO’s are the main ingredient used as the cost of the 100% synthetic oil is less than $7.00 per quart.
The other main type of synthetics are synthetic esters, (diester, polyolesters, polyesters and complex esters). Motul® uses esters in its products. Esters are mostly made of vegetables, minerals, and animal fatty acids. Motul’s® esters contain a lot of coconut derivatives. Esters are much more expensive because the ingredients all have to be collected from natural resources and synthesized (a very expensive process) in smaller quantities. Esters have all the advantages of a PAO but more of them. Esters can handle heat better than PAO’s and when burned, esters leave far less coking deposits. Esters are static types of oils and are attracted to metal parts with an electro-chemical bond. This means no more metal to metal start ups. This also means that a film is there before the oil pressure light goes out preventing premature wear of high-stressed parts like cam lobes. The film created is up to 5 times stronger then petroleum oil.
The number one reason to run an ester synthetic oil is bond. The electro-chemical bond is made because the ester molecule is polar. Sort of like a refrigerator magnet. It is attracted to metal and sticks.The PAO molecules are neutral and act like a piece of plastic placed on the fridge. They just fall off. All commercial jet plane flying, use an ester synthetic of some type and not a PAO. You need to run an ester of some sort for maximum protection.
There are some companies calling level 3 petroleum base stocks synthetic. This oil is a good Petro oil. But it is not what we call a synthetic. The end result is that some oils are labeled incorrectly and are very inexpensive.
I also came across this tidbit:
Until about 2000, these PAO base oils had an enormous advantage over mineral base oils in low temperature performance and in resistance to oxidation, which is critical in keeping the oil from forming acids. However, modern group-III oils can nearly match the performance of PAOs at about half the price. Because of this, PAO based oils are rapidly disappearing. There are new processes being investigated which may significantly cut the cost of producing PAOs, and make them an important component of oil again.
Last edited by BigMikeATL; 06-02-2009 at 04:11 PM.
#804
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Do-it-yourself experiment:
You will need
- a brown paper bag
- 1 teaspoon of non-synthetic motor oil
- 1 teaspoon of synthetic motor oil of equal viscosity
- tweezers
- Bic lighter
- fire extinguisher
Tear off 2 pieces of paper of equal size -- about the size of your thumbnail.
Soak one piece of paper in the non-synthetic oil
Soak the other piece of paper in the synthetic oil
Using tweezers. remove the first piece of paper from the oil and let any excess drip off. Then hold the paper over the flame of the lighter for 10 seconds, or until it catches fire, whichever comes first.
Repeat the previous step, with the oil soaked in synthetic oil.
Which samples combusted?
What are your conclusions?
The temperatures involved in this experiment are a few hundred degrees. The temperature of combustion in an engine is several times this. What do you think this implies regarding the "burnability" of synthetic motor oil?
You will need
- a brown paper bag
- 1 teaspoon of non-synthetic motor oil
- 1 teaspoon of synthetic motor oil of equal viscosity
- tweezers
- Bic lighter
- fire extinguisher
Tear off 2 pieces of paper of equal size -- about the size of your thumbnail.
Soak one piece of paper in the non-synthetic oil
Soak the other piece of paper in the synthetic oil
Using tweezers. remove the first piece of paper from the oil and let any excess drip off. Then hold the paper over the flame of the lighter for 10 seconds, or until it catches fire, whichever comes first.
Repeat the previous step, with the oil soaked in synthetic oil.
Which samples combusted?
What are your conclusions?
The temperatures involved in this experiment are a few hundred degrees. The temperature of combustion in an engine is several times this. What do you think this implies regarding the "burnability" of synthetic motor oil?
#805
Registered
Just thought I'd post an interesting tidbit on Idemitsu synthetic premix oil that I just learned this week. My friend Dave uses it mixed with gasoline in his weedeater. With any of the standard premix oils he used before that he bought from autoparts stores, Walmart, etc, the weedeater exhaust smoked as they typically do. However with the Idemitsu, there is none! Zero. I may have to look into it a bit more.
#806
Just thought I'd post an interesting tidbit on Idemitsu synthetic premix oil that I just learned this week. My friend Dave uses it mixed with gasoline in his weedeater. With any of the standard premix oils he used before that he bought from autoparts stores, Walmart, etc, the weedeater exhaust smoked as they typically do. However with the Idemitsu, there is none! Zero. I may have to look into it a bit more.
Ditto with Redline Racing two-stroke oil.
#807
Out of NYC
iTrader: (1)
Redline is Ester based (V)
I switched to Redline before, reason I went back to Royal Purple is ... pepboy's 10 bux off 30 discount
![Smilie](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/smile.gif)
IMO, Royal purple is good stuff. Its just that ...
For the same price(before discounts), Redline is much better
![Smilie](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Just thought I'd post an interesting tidbit on Idemitsu synthetic premix oil that I just learned this week. My friend Dave uses it mixed with gasoline in his weedeater. With any of the standard premix oils he used before that he bought from autoparts stores, Walmart, etc, the weedeater exhaust smoked as they typically do. However with the Idemitsu, there is none! Zero. I may have to look into it a bit more.
gives me no problems. use it all the time, 8 oz a per tank on my new(reman) engine.
#808
Super Moderator
Just thought I'd post an interesting tidbit on Idemitsu synthetic premix oil that I just learned this week. My friend Dave uses it mixed with gasoline in his weedeater. With any of the standard premix oils he used before that he bought from autoparts stores, Walmart, etc, the weedeater exhaust smoked as they typically do. However with the Idemitsu, there is none! Zero. I may have to look into it a bit more.
I also use the Saber Pro in my 2 Stroke Lawnmower at a ratio of 25:1, and I too get absolutely NO Smoke out the exhaust...NONE!
#809
Registered
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=592
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=611
#810
For example, I looked up the flash point for royal purple's various oils which are advertised to be synthetic.
Flash point is "The lowest temperature at which the vapor of a substance will catch on fire, even momentarily, if heat is applied."
Flash Point ˚F varies between 400 degrees and 460 degrees.
http://www.ro-quip.com/Technical_Doc...r%20Oil_ps.pdf
We know the combustion temperatures are much higher than that. Still, some oil must survive to explain why the rotary doesn't seize up due to a lack of lubrication.
Now, I'm not trying to make the case that sythetic based oils are by any means dangerous because they might not combust as well. I used symthetic oil for almost 50,000 miles before switching to 2 cycle oil injection.
I still advocate that using 2 cycle injection is a far superior method of lubrication than using 4 cycle oil which isn't meant to be combusted. The whole process can be done for less than $150 and even with MazdaManiac's OMP adjustments I go through maybe 1 quart every 1,000 miles.
I think people are going to find that their motor will be fine with whatever oil they go with.
Even going as far as the 5w-20 discussion, I'm finding that the argument of that oil being "thin" has less to do with the pouring rate at startup and more to do with the sheering strength at temperature. This is why I've decided to switch to a 0w-40 so there's plenty of flow at startup with protection at temperature.
Regular oil changes with weights that protect the bearings will yield a long life with your motor regardless of what oil you use.
BUT! That's a discussion for another thread.
#811
Registered
... The point being that because true synthetics are designed to handle high heat conditions better than standard oil it's going to be tougher to combust in a complete fashion without leaving deposits behind.
For example, I looked up the flash point for royal purple's various oils which are advertised to be synthetic.
Flash point is "The lowest temperature at which the vapor of a substance will catch on fire, even momentarily, if heat is applied."
Flash Point ˚F varies between 400 degrees and 460 degrees.
http://www.ro-quip.com/Technical_Doc...r%20Oil_ps.pdf ...
For example, I looked up the flash point for royal purple's various oils which are advertised to be synthetic.
Flash point is "The lowest temperature at which the vapor of a substance will catch on fire, even momentarily, if heat is applied."
Flash Point ˚F varies between 400 degrees and 460 degrees.
http://www.ro-quip.com/Technical_Doc...r%20Oil_ps.pdf ...
#812
Lubricious
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Exactly. And this is why I think the conventional vs. synthetic issue is either a non-issue or if it is an issue then it's a lot more complicated than the simple "needs to burn" explanation that's usually given. As you say, oil obviously survives on the housing for some period of time; it has to. And also, it burns away. It has to, in this engine, because there's nowhere else for it to go -- unlike older rotaries with peripheral ports. So, imagine this situation with fresh oil, and oil in all stages of decomposition, all mixed together at the same time -- this is the true operating condition.
That's an incredible number of variables when you consider all of the possible breakdown products and all of the allotropes of Carbon. Simple flashpoint (or the range of flashpoints in available motor oils) is probably of little relevance in this system. Rate of fresh oil injection is probably more important. Minimizing Carbon also seems like a good idea, and top of the line premixes which run "smokeless", used with an adaptor like you do, are probably a great idea, although the current injection method doesn't seem optimal, which leads to the issue of premixing with gas also. My opinion is that there's always Carbon so I go with the idea of a cleaning/solvent/light oil approach via MMO. But your ideas are certainly just as valid.
The dynamics of this system, in which the lubricating oil must stick around to the bitter end of complete destruction, has probably only ever been studied in detail by Mazda engineers or maybe not even then. The complexity of the situation may only be amenable to an empirical approach. Again I'd point out that it isn't a simple matter of combusting oil as in atomized oil/air combusion. It's a gradual breakdown of a surface film involving who-knows-how-many intermediate breakdown products. As far as any commercial oil product being optimized for those particular needs -- fughetabboudit. We're left with deriving options of our own based on principles and theory, from our position on the outside of the engine. It's quite likely that we're fortunate that the system is forgiving of our mistakes and experimentations
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Last edited by Nubo; 06-03-2009 at 09:11 AM.
#813
Lubricious
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![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
Interestingly, MMO runs fairly clean in the weed whacker at normal ratios -- definitely cleaner than the el-cheapo premix they sell for the purpose. I tend to mix in the tank by eye; meaning probably at least double, and then there is a bit of smoke until it warms up. By far the smokiest run was when I had nothing available and just used regular car motor oil. Kept the mosquitoes at bay!
#814
OK, it's my turn to chime in here....I have a 2008 40th and at 5000 miles I changed the oil with Amsoil Premium Protection 10w40. I have been premixing from 3000 miles to present with Amsoil Saber 2 cycle. The flash point argument is valid and that is the reason I went to synthetic...its going to burn, just like conventional oil and I have no doubt it protects much better that 20 weight conventional oil. Since the oil change my MPG average is the best it has been since I bought the car. I keep track of this and will report back later after a few more tanks.
#815
OK, so Ive been driving maybe a litttle on the rough side with my 8 and recently ive found ive been going through oil like goin through gas, in 1500 miles ive added 2.5 full quarts of basic valvoline 5w-20 can someone please research and just straight up decipher which is best to use after redline, again and again. Also synthetic oil... from what ive been hearing the reason against synthetic oils is that it wont burn off as completely as conventional motor oil, thus leaving a filament along the inside of the rotor housing eventually ... f'in your **** up is this true or are the comments of synthetic being able to hold up more readily to redline conditions and not screw your engine up true kind of a need to know thing wouldnt most of you say?
#816
Super Moderator
OK, so Ive been driving maybe a litttle on the rough side with my 8 and recently ive found ive been going through oil like goin through gas, in 1500 miles ive added 2.5 full quarts of basic valvoline 5w-20 can someone please research and just straight up decipher which is best to use after redline, again and again. Also synthetic oil... from what ive been hearing the reason against synthetic oils is that it wont burn off as completely as conventional motor oil, thus leaving a filament along the inside of the rotor housing eventually ... f'in your **** up is this true or are the comments of synthetic being able to hold up more readily to redline conditions and not screw your engine up true kind of a need to know thing wouldnt most of you say?
So they are not actually saying you can not use synthetics in the RENESIS, I can show you bulletins where they
strongly advise not to.
![](https://www.rx8club.com/attachments/rx-8-discussion-3/24688d1091389920-synthetics-picture-019.jpg)
Last edited by ASH8; 06-08-2009 at 01:51 AM.
#818
If you look at the rebuild photos of my engine (see sig) you will see the seals are perfectly fine after a billion years of synthetic.
I have no problem with synthetic and see no reason to avoid it unless you have a brand new car (break in period) or because it costs more than conventional.
I have no problem with synthetic and see no reason to avoid it unless you have a brand new car (break in period) or because it costs more than conventional.
#819
Guest
Posts: n/a
guys, sry I tried, but I cant go through 33 pages of arguments. It ll take u 30sec to write up an answer and it will save my 2h of reading. lol. I m about to buy new oil for my 2004 rx8. which one to go with!? 5w20 seems to thin for me. What else can I use safely!? I absolutely love my 8 so I want the best for my baby ![Wink](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)
Thx in advance
![Wink](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)
Thx in advance
#821
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exactly how does the whole adding oil to your gas work? do you still have to have oil in the engine like traditional way or leave that empty and just mix it with the gasoline? DETAILS PLEASE!! Sorry I sound like a tool but im new and learning. thanks
#822
Registered
The most popular premix is made for rotaries by Idemitsu:
http://www.idemitsu-usa.com/page_210.htm
Your RX-8 has an oil metering pump (OMP) that already injects a little oil into your combustion chambers so you probably only need 4-5 oz with each fill-up instead of 1/2 oz per gallon recommended above, which is for rotaries that don't have an OMP.
Some people also add a lubricious cleaner that will not harm the oil films inside your engine. Many of us use FP Plus by LCD Inc, which has cyclohexanone that emulsifies carbon into a colloidal graphite lubricant. If interested, look for a group buy soon on FP Plus.
There's lots of options, read all about them in this thread:
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/gas-oil-premix-thread-99636/
#823
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But, I'd almost have to agree with his surprise at your question....you must have oil in the car, unless you want the thing to die.
#824
Out of NYC
iTrader: (1)
guys, sry I tried, but I cant go through 33 pages of arguments. It ll take u 30sec to write up an answer and it will save my 2h of reading. lol. I m about to buy new oil for my 2004 rx8. which one to go with!? 5w20 seems to thin for me. What else can I use safely!? I absolutely love my 8 so I want the best for my baby ![Wink](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)
Thx in advance
![Wink](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)
Thx in advance
lower than that? use something like 5 or 10w40.