Cumulative Synthetic Oil Discussion
09-16-2009, 11:09 PM
#951
Super Moderator
OH for GOD Sake....
Just to let you 'young" guys or noobs out there know, the engine parts (internal) and MOP are the same for ALL WORLD MARKETS....comprehenday...
Take, Australia they recommend a 5W30 Mineral, to get to a 5W rating they have to add synthetic as a blend, No Mineral ONLY oil can get there, so even Mazda Australia contradicts their statement of not Using Synthetic engine oils.
My 2009 Owners handbook (from Japan) say I can use ALL heat range and viscosity range oils depending on outside AIR TEMPERATURE.
As far as the Dino/Synthetic deadbate...I will pass...it is F**King BORING!
Just to let you 'young" guys or noobs out there know, the engine parts (internal) and MOP are the same for ALL WORLD MARKETS....comprehenday...
Take, Australia they recommend a 5W30 Mineral, to get to a 5W rating they have to add synthetic as a blend, No Mineral ONLY oil can get there, so even Mazda Australia contradicts their statement of not Using Synthetic engine oils.
My 2009 Owners handbook (from Japan) say I can use ALL heat range and viscosity range oils depending on outside AIR TEMPERATURE.
As far as the Dino/Synthetic deadbate...I will pass...it is F**King BORING!
09-16-2009, 11:16 PM
#952
Super Moderator
OH, Engine 'Flooding" has NOTHING to do with the 'type' of Engine Oil you use...NOTHING.
Engine Flooding is because too much Petroleum, Petrol, Gas is in the chamber which basically WETS the internal chambers, rotors and Spark Plugs, so air fuel ratio's are out of wack...to put it in SIMPLE Terms., and your plugs won't ignite the unburned gas because there is too much there.
The issue of Flooding has virtually been eliminated with the later models, as fuel/air ratio's have changed during cold start up, BUT, it always pays to make sure your car has some warmth in the engine before turn off, I usually wait until the Temp Needle starts to move before I turn engine off...to date No problems...touch Wood.
Engine Flooding is because too much Petroleum, Petrol, Gas is in the chamber which basically WETS the internal chambers, rotors and Spark Plugs, so air fuel ratio's are out of wack...to put it in SIMPLE Terms., and your plugs won't ignite the unburned gas because there is too much there.
The issue of Flooding has virtually been eliminated with the later models, as fuel/air ratio's have changed during cold start up, BUT, it always pays to make sure your car has some warmth in the engine before turn off, I usually wait until the Temp Needle starts to move before I turn engine off...to date No problems...touch Wood.
Last edited by ASH8; 09-16-2009 at 11:20 PM.
09-16-2009, 11:46 PM
#953
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Starting performance
As the wise ASH8 presumes...at the end of the day, too much gas in a still- cold engine is more than likely the problem. But, I don't want to use up my chits with Mazda NA on why synth causes start problems. They make it loud and clear. That's good enough for me.
geez; even the devious, deceptive Mazda says to wait a little before you turn off a cold engine, and the first illuminated red bar which goes off at approx. 150 degrees f is just a gimmick, right nycgps?
By the way, how about translating the Japanese writing on that poster you put up, or, is one picture worth a thousand words. I thought that was a Chinese proverb, so it's not applicable to Japanese related stuff.
Also, just for the record nycgps, what kind of "snake oil" were you running when your engine vaporized???
geez; even the devious, deceptive Mazda says to wait a little before you turn off a cold engine, and the first illuminated red bar which goes off at approx. 150 degrees f is just a gimmick, right nycgps?
By the way, how about translating the Japanese writing on that poster you put up, or, is one picture worth a thousand words. I thought that was a Chinese proverb, so it's not applicable to Japanese related stuff.
Also, just for the record nycgps, what kind of "snake oil" were you running when your engine vaporized???
Last edited by rxrocks; 09-16-2009 at 11:51 PM.
09-16-2009, 11:52 PM
#954
^ok you said what you wanted; as well as Ash8 and nycgps
none of this back and forth is going to change each others minds on the subject
in the end, people will do what they want to do; and what they believe is right
so can we please end this thread? I think it's run its course.
none of this back and forth is going to change each others minds on the subject
in the end, people will do what they want to do; and what they believe is right
so can we please end this thread? I think it's run its course.
09-16-2009, 11:58 PM
#955
By the way, how about translating the Japanese writing on that poster you put up, or, is one picture worth a thousand words. I thought that was a Chinese proverb, so it's not applicable to Japanese related stuff.
Also, just for the record nycgps, what kind of "snake oil" were you running when your engine vaporized???
Also, just for the record nycgps, what kind of "snake oil" were you running when your engine vaporized???
you dont even know how this car and engine works. so dont even try. its just gonna make yourself look like an idiot. which you already did.
If you cant read those Japanese, too bad. Let me give you a hint :
"Synthe-Renesis, Mazda's Official Renesis engine oil, With 100% Full Synthetic PAO based stock ..."
You dodge my question AGAIN : if Synthetic is really as evil as you & Mazda NA saids, hmm, then Mazda Japan must be smoking crack to sell a Full Synthetic oil for Renesis ! oh wait, I thought it was Mazda Japan who created the engine? HMMMM
Stop arguing, you lost the battle before it start.
Last edited by nycgps; 09-17-2009 at 12:09 AM.
09-17-2009, 12:11 AM
#956
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What type oil do u use, and how has it affected your engine's lifespan, so far?
Now, in all seriousness and in an effort to compare outcomes when using either synth or dino, what we need is a simple, crudely scientific survey of what everyone uses, including premix and weights other than 5W-20, and, what, if anything happened to their engine under those conditions.
Only then, will some kind of pattern show up to lets us know what works and what doesn't. Leave out usage relating to racing. I've said it a dozen times. Synth is fine for racing. I'm talking about street legal cars, starting with the oldest ones out there.
Only then, will some kind of pattern show up to lets us know what works and what doesn't. Leave out usage relating to racing. I've said it a dozen times. Synth is fine for racing. I'm talking about street legal cars, starting with the oldest ones out there.
09-17-2009, 12:26 AM
#958
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There were tons of engine problems with with ur "o-holy 5w20". Mazda totally messed up. they know it. Center of the Apex getting unusual wear.
you dont even know how this car and engine works. so dont even try. its just gonna make yourself look like an idiot. which you already did.
If you cant read those Japanese, too bad. Let me give you a hint :
"Synthe-Renesis, Mazda's Official Renesis engine oil, With 100% Full Synthetic PAO based stock ..."
You dodge my question AGAIN : if Synthetic is really as evil as you & Mazda NA saids, hmm, then Mazda Japan must be smoking crack to sell a Full Synthetic oil for Renesis ! oh wait, I thought it was Mazda Japan who created the engine? HMMMM
Stop arguing, you lost the battle before it start.
you dont even know how this car and engine works. so dont even try. its just gonna make yourself look like an idiot. which you already did.
If you cant read those Japanese, too bad. Let me give you a hint :
"Synthe-Renesis, Mazda's Official Renesis engine oil, With 100% Full Synthetic PAO based stock ..."
You dodge my question AGAIN : if Synthetic is really as evil as you & Mazda NA saids, hmm, then Mazda Japan must be smoking crack to sell a Full Synthetic oil for Renesis ! oh wait, I thought it was Mazda Japan who created the engine? HMMMM
Stop arguing, you lost the battle before it start.
If you look back at ASH8 post about the new Series 2 cars,
you'll see that many, many, things were changed in the oiling system and the seals, including oil ports in the seals themselves if I'm not mistaken. See attached post link.
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=161665
The only thing that wasn't changed was the "recommendation" to use 5W-20 up to 100 degrees outsied air temp. They probably assume that at higher temps, people would know to go to5W-30.
BTW, you're now at over 12,000 posts. Consider that knitting club that I suggested earlier. You need to get a life.
09-17-2009, 12:33 AM
#959
If you look back at ASH8 post about the new Series 2 cars,
you'll see that many, many, things were changed in the oiling system and the seals, including oil ports in the seals themselves if I'm not mistaken. See attached post link.
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=161665
The only thing that wasn't changed was the "recommendation" to use 5W-20 up to 100 degrees outsied air temp. They probably assume that at higher temps, people would know to go to5W-30.
BTW, you're now at over 12,000 posts. Consider that knitting club that I suggested earlier. You need to get a life.
you'll see that many, many, things were changed in the oiling system and the seals, including oil ports in the seals themselves if I'm not mistaken. See attached post link.
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=161665
The only thing that wasn't changed was the "recommendation" to use 5W-20 up to 100 degrees outsied air temp. They probably assume that at higher temps, people would know to go to5W-30.
BTW, you're now at over 12,000 posts. Consider that knitting club that I suggested earlier. You need to get a life.
Wow ... seriously. WOW !
since when the did the word "recommended" means "required" ???
5w20 is for BEST Fuel Economy, period. sure it works. but is it ideal ? engine protection ? nope.
Have you seen a "opened up" Renesis in person? I know I did, quite a few. and guess what I saw ? 90% of them use "your godly" 5w20 oil, they all got the same kind of wear around the same location. Wanna guess where ? you probably can't, u dont even know how many parts this engine got
what kind of life you have? you cant even get ur facts straight. I feel kind of sorry for you.
Last edited by nycgps; 09-17-2009 at 12:37 AM.
09-17-2009, 01:20 AM
#960
You STILL dodge my question.
of course you're bored. cuz you have no answer to it. all you got is full of ****.
oh Im so afraid of your 09 manual. and their "recommendation"
Unless you perform all work at Mazda dealer, you can take that recommendation and stick it up your a$$
in case u ask why? cuz thats what Mazda recommends too ~
of course you're bored. cuz you have no answer to it. all you got is full of ****.
oh Im so afraid of your 09 manual. and their "recommendation"
Unless you perform all work at Mazda dealer, you can take that recommendation and stick it up your a$$
in case u ask why? cuz thats what Mazda recommends too ~
09-17-2009, 02:00 AM
#961
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You STILL dodge my question.
of course you're bored. cuz you have no answer to it. all you got is full of ****.
oh Im so afraid of your 09 manual. and their "recommendation"
Unless you perform all work at Mazda dealer, you can take that recommendation and stick it up your a$$
in case u ask why? cuz thats what Mazda recommends too ~
of course you're bored. cuz you have no answer to it. all you got is full of ****.
oh Im so afraid of your 09 manual. and their "recommendation"
Unless you perform all work at Mazda dealer, you can take that recommendation and stick it up your a$$
in case u ask why? cuz thats what Mazda recommends too ~
09-17-2009, 02:15 AM
#962
Super Moderator
rxrocks, because you mention something about a thread I started I have to correct you.
Yes, Mazda did very slight changes to the Internal Apex Seals, Springs, etc, over the life span of the 04-07 Approx, 2008 RX-8's the last year or so of Series I has the Exact Same Internal Parts as the Series II (09-10), the fundamental change involving the two engines was EXTERNAL not Internal, that is the EMOP and extra Oiling Nozzle for the middle of Apex Seal.
ALL the Internal PARTS are Interchangeable FORWARD (new for old, not old for new), in other-words ALL internal Parts from an 09-10 is used and will fit ALL 04-08 Series I, in fact Mazda's NAO re-man plant would be using the very latest parts from the 09 in their rebuilds.
Unfortunately, (sorry to say this AGAIN Guys as some think I am being "Superior or Insulting" their Series I RX-8's...and I am NOT), BUT, the main fault is not being addressed and that is no middle Apex Seal lubrication, in other-words they are using your existing MOP setup, so the same issues will happen again down the track, UNLESS, you start to PRE-MIX.
I AM NOT TRYING TO GET OFFSIDE WITH ANY MEMBER.....OK..and I am not Yelling, just trying to make it CLEAR!
Yes, Mazda did very slight changes to the Internal Apex Seals, Springs, etc, over the life span of the 04-07 Approx, 2008 RX-8's the last year or so of Series I has the Exact Same Internal Parts as the Series II (09-10), the fundamental change involving the two engines was EXTERNAL not Internal, that is the EMOP and extra Oiling Nozzle for the middle of Apex Seal.
ALL the Internal PARTS are Interchangeable FORWARD (new for old, not old for new), in other-words ALL internal Parts from an 09-10 is used and will fit ALL 04-08 Series I, in fact Mazda's NAO re-man plant would be using the very latest parts from the 09 in their rebuilds.
Unfortunately, (sorry to say this AGAIN Guys as some think I am being "Superior or Insulting" their Series I RX-8's...and I am NOT), BUT, the main fault is not being addressed and that is no middle Apex Seal lubrication, in other-words they are using your existing MOP setup, so the same issues will happen again down the track, UNLESS, you start to PRE-MIX.
I AM NOT TRYING TO GET OFFSIDE WITH ANY MEMBER.....OK..and I am not Yelling, just trying to make it CLEAR!
Last edited by ASH8; 09-17-2009 at 02:18 AM.
09-17-2009, 02:25 AM
#963
wow,
just caught up a bit. starting to care less. but..
oil change frequency is the key.
if you have a 04 flash is life... after that is is just a bit of common sense.. this is a usa statement. (btw, ash8 has more info than we get in the usa for years!)
read learn.
the 5 20 was for the epa and for emissions..
dead dinasour or syn. i dont care.. they both work well..
but after 115k miles.. well i think 15 40 is a good place to be.
HEY, but what do i know? not like i read much here..
beers
just caught up a bit. starting to care less. but..
oil change frequency is the key.
if you have a 04 flash is life... after that is is just a bit of common sense.. this is a usa statement. (btw, ash8 has more info than we get in the usa for years!)
read learn.
the 5 20 was for the epa and for emissions..
dead dinasour or syn. i dont care.. they both work well..
but after 115k miles.. well i think 15 40 is a good place to be.
HEY, but what do i know? not like i read much here..
beers
Last edited by swoope; 09-17-2009 at 02:27 AM.
09-17-2009, 02:28 AM
#964
Super Moderator
On Ya SWOOPE...
Spot on mate, I like a 15 40 too..
But each to their own...just change your oil more often...as Scott says!
Beers!
Spot on mate, I like a 15 40 too..
But each to their own...just change your oil more often...as Scott says!
Beers!
09-17-2009, 07:29 AM
#965
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I made a big mistake and I'm recanting what i said about 5W-20
In several of my previous posts, I said that Mazda recommends (as per the current owner's manual) the use of 5W-20 up to 100f. degrees outside air temp.
Well, turns out I was wrong!
I sincerely apologize to all for spreading misinformation. Upon closer inspection of the graph in the manual, it turns out that 5W-20 is only good to 120f. degrees.
Those living in areas in areas where the temps can exceed 120f. degerees should consider using the next higher weight of oil.
Soorry!
Well, turns out I was wrong!
I sincerely apologize to all for spreading misinformation. Upon closer inspection of the graph in the manual, it turns out that 5W-20 is only good to 120f. degrees.Those living in areas in areas where the temps can exceed 120f. degerees should consider using the next higher weight of oil.
Soorry!
09-17-2009, 07:46 AM
#966
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nyc- you can get your point across without being so hostile, seriously, this is a forum on engine oil. For the record, 10w40 synthetic + 2cycle premix for me because I have heard from creditable sources that synthetic is fine in a roatary. If an owner wants to use conventional oil, fine, who cares? Your rant does nothing for your credibility....so if you want to spread the word of using synthetics...be a bit more diplomatic. I know you are passionate about the RX8, I am too, I think all of us who read this forum love the car...can't we all just get along?
To settle this debate - use the oil you feel comfortable with, and just enjoy the car!
To settle this debate - use the oil you feel comfortable with, and just enjoy the car!
09-17-2009, 09:06 AM
#967
nyc- you can get your point across without being so hostile, seriously, this is a forum on engine oil. For the record, 10w40 synthetic + 2cycle premix for me because I have heard from creditable sources that synthetic is fine in a roatary. If an owner wants to use conventional oil, fine, who cares? Your rant does nothing for your credibility....so if you want to spread the word of using synthetics...be a bit more diplomatic. I know you are passionate about the RX8, I am too, I think all of us who read this forum love the car...can't we all just get along?
To settle this debate - use the oil you feel comfortable with, and just enjoy the car!
To settle this debate - use the oil you feel comfortable with, and just enjoy the car!
I dont really cared about Dino vs Synthetic use. you can use whatever you want.
Its just very funny that some people love to ignore facts COMPLETELY, starts talking **** with nothing to back them up.
Look at him, he STILL dodge my question, I mean its ok, cuz he is nothing but full of crap anyway.
09-17-2009, 02:58 PM
#968
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The “09” Series 2 manual states:
CAUTION ! Do not use either synthetic or semi-synthetic motor oil. Otherwise engine starting performance could worsen.
...
I just think that the people who design/manufacture and test their engine, just might, know at least a little about what they’re talking about.
CAUTION ! Do not use either synthetic or semi-synthetic motor oil. Otherwise engine starting performance could worsen.
...
I just think that the people who design/manufacture and test their engine, just might, know at least a little about what they’re talking about.
Mazda is schizophrenic on the synthetic issue. Sometimes it's a recommendation, sometimes not, they give all kinds of hedgy explanations about "not having tested all synthetics".... Which begs the question, have they tested all non-synthetics? In my opinion, this question has achieved cult status within Mazda, just as here. Which leads to curiosity on the part of enthusiasts, who send letters to MNAO. They get tired of it, and it's easier to to say NO. Just like it's easier to install a fake oil pressure gauge. Is that best for the car? No, it's best for Mazda.
Anway, the "warning" is about as innocuous as it gets. "...engine starting performance could worsen". Kinda puts the fear of God into you, lol. One can logically infer that operating performance and engine life is unaffected. Now, my engine is still starting fine after over 40,000 miles on synthetic oil (and a few thousand on non-synth). Maybe tomorrow it will die. Or engine starting performance could worsen. If so, it will have lasted longer than many who used the mythical 5W20 non-synthetic (5W20 has to be at least semi-synthetic). Given the average life of these engines, imho engine oil is the least of its problems, unless you pre-mix (another Mazda-forbidden practice). So, probably not important, but it is interesting. Which is why this thread will never die.
09-17-2009, 04:26 PM
#969
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Yep, I'm not certain syn vs. dino makes any difference if your change your oil like clock work an frequently. I did (still do) change my oil like clock work at 3k and two engines have failed (one with syn, one with Dino). I believe, wait no, I know, the center apex seals are not getting lubricated enough and it is the prime culprit in failures, not oil choice. Is synthetic better than Dino in terms of durability?
I will eat my words and now say yes for the most part while also stating that I believe some good Dino oils are almost as good as lower end synthetics.
But in the end, if that center part of the seal does not get lubricated then the engine will fail prematurely. This is why on my new engine I run a good synthetic, premix, and will be injecting clean premix as well via the OMP (when SOHN is installed this weekend).
If that doesn't work then I will fly to Australia for a vacation and while I am there, I will steal ASH's third oil injector,
I will eat my words and now say yes for the most part while also stating that I believe some good Dino oils are almost as good as lower end synthetics.
But in the end, if that center part of the seal does not get lubricated then the engine will fail prematurely. This is why on my new engine I run a good synthetic, premix, and will be injecting clean premix as well via the OMP (when SOHN is installed this weekend).
If that doesn't work then I will fly to Australia for a vacation and while I am there, I will steal ASH's third oil injector,
09-17-2009, 04:27 PM
#970
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It's very simple.
The vast majority of mineral oils are designed using the same base stock oil and thus Mazda has a firm grasp on how those oils are going to work with the motor. The only real differences in mineral oils are the additive packages which vary by manufacturer.
Synthetics are not all created the same. You have synthetics that could be a Group III, IV, or V base stock. Throw in various different additive packages and you have too many combinations for Mazda to test for warranty purposes. It was easier to simply say NO to synthetic oils than to encourage the practice and risk a serious warranty situation.
Mazda has to create designs that work within the boundries of reality, budgets, environmental and political laws. As a result their suggestions are not always based on what is best for the life of the vehicle but what balances their warranty concerns, quality, performance within a budget.
Because owners are not bound by the same limitations we can make adjustments (at our own risk) which are in the best interests of the car.
The vast majority of mineral oils are designed using the same base stock oil and thus Mazda has a firm grasp on how those oils are going to work with the motor. The only real differences in mineral oils are the additive packages which vary by manufacturer.
Synthetics are not all created the same. You have synthetics that could be a Group III, IV, or V base stock. Throw in various different additive packages and you have too many combinations for Mazda to test for warranty purposes. It was easier to simply say NO to synthetic oils than to encourage the practice and risk a serious warranty situation.
Mazda has to create designs that work within the boundries of reality, budgets, environmental and political laws. As a result their suggestions are not always based on what is best for the life of the vehicle but what balances their warranty concerns, quality, performance within a budget.
Because owners are not bound by the same limitations we can make adjustments (at our own risk) which are in the best interests of the car.
09-17-2009, 04:39 PM
#971
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I started using synthetics in rotaries before the RX-8 was even a known concept. No problems and remember I use it in the pre-Renesis engines that are supposedly worst to use it in!
As far as oil weight is concerned, the 3rd generation RX-7 owners manual states 10W30.
As far as oil weight is concerned, the 3rd generation RX-7 owners manual states 10W30.
09-17-2009, 04:55 PM
#973
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09-17-2009, 05:34 PM
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Do synthetic diesel oils have the same heavy detergent load and anti-foaming agents as dino diesel? I know that the 15W-40 has been proven to hold viscosity without breaking down fast like 10-40 and lower, but is that due to these additional characteristics of the diesel oil? Are these components possibly bad for a rotary engine in the long run (besides the extra wear from cold starts due to the heavier weight)?
09-17-2009, 05:56 PM
#975
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Do synthetic diesel oils have the same heavy detergent load and anti-foaming agents as dino diesel? I know that the 15W-40 has been proven to hold viscosity without breaking down fast like 10-40 and lower, but is that due to these additional characteristics of the diesel oil? Are these components possibly bad for a rotary engine in the long run (besides the extra wear from cold starts due to the heavier weight)?