Cumulative Synthetic Oil Discussion
03-11-2010, 08:58 AM
#1201
Registered
A water separator is a simple device that takes advantage of the weight differences of each fluid and uses this as a means of separation. Water is lighter than oil (diesel fuel). Gasoline is lighter still. I don't see why it wouldn't work. It wouldn't at least hurt to try it.
03-11-2010, 09:37 PM
#1203
If I am not mistaken, the Original RX8 manuals('03 builds) stated 87 fuel could be used. Some owners experienced knock and they change the manual to say Premium recomended. 87 can be used with no problems, only some people experience knock using it. Now I have to look this up and try to find it. I'm pretty sure I'm not lying 
that is pretty much what i said.. even the inside of the gas door says premium recommended.. i have a early 04 build..
just make sure if you go from 94 to 87 you reset the ecu...
beers
03-14-2010, 12:02 PM
#1208
Intended acceleration
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"This vehicle is designed to use 91[(R+M)/2 method] or higher gasoline for best performance. If 91 is not available, gasoline from 87 to 90 can be used temporarily for emergency purposes, but this will slightly reduce performance. Fuel with gasoline from 87 to 90, driving in high temperature or low humidity conditions could cause engine knocking.
Fuel with a rating lower than 87 could cause the emission control system to lose effectiveness. It could also cause engine knocking and serious engine damage.
CAUTION Use only unleaded fuel (...)
Vehicle damage and drivability problems resulting from the use of the following may not be covered by the Mazda warranty.
* Gasohol containing more than 10% ethanol.
* Gasoline or gasohol containing methanol.
* Leaded fuel or leaded gasohol."
Fuel with a rating lower than 87 could cause the emission control system to lose effectiveness. It could also cause engine knocking and serious engine damage.
CAUTION Use only unleaded fuel (...)
Vehicle damage and drivability problems resulting from the use of the following may not be covered by the Mazda warranty.
* Gasohol containing more than 10% ethanol.
* Gasoline or gasohol containing methanol.
* Leaded fuel or leaded gasohol."
03-14-2010, 11:43 PM
#1210
wankel my wanker
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03-15-2010, 06:02 AM
#1212
FLAME ON!
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TSB: Using AMSOIL in Mazda RENESIS Rotary Engines
TSB: MO-2007-09-06
AMSOIL Technical Service Bulletin
Date: Rev. 1: 5/15/09
Product Description: AMSOIL SAE 0W-20 (ASM) and XL 5W-20 (XLM) Engine Oil
Subject: Using AMSOIL ASM and XLM in the Mazda RENESIS Rotary Engine
OBJECTIVE:
Provide information about the use of synthetic engine oil in the Mazda RENESIS rotary engine.
ISSUES:
According to Mazda Corporation Engineering bulletin #06010010 dated 10/27/2006, injecting synthetic engine oil into the combustion chamber of the RENESIS engine may lead to carbon buildup that adversely affects engine performance. Mazda conducted a case study with the use of synthetic engine oil in the rotary engine, finding it caused a large amount of viscous carbon buildup on the side housing. Mazda did not conclude that this carbon buildup contributed to adverse engine performance, but did state that if carbon buildup adheres near the spark plug hole, or to the seals in the combustion chamber, it may lead to adverse effects such as engine misfire or knocking.
At this time, AMSOIL does not have any test data to support this position. However, there is also no test data illustrating any long-term effects of using synthetic engine oil in the RENESIS engine.
Mazda Engineering did state that “not all synthetic oil is at a disadvantage in terms of carbon buildup, but use of untested, non-genuine oil should be avoided.”
TECHNICAL DISCUSSION:
Mazda has produced different versions of the rotary engine over the years. The design is comprised of a three-lobed rotor that rotates inside an oval-shaped chamber to create combustion. Because of this design, its lubricating requirements are slightly different than those of a typical piston design engine. To lubricate the rotor and seals, a metering oil pump injects a small amount of the engine oil into the rotor chamber. Numerous articles and technical discussion boards claim synthetic engine oils do not burn completely in the rotary engine, leading to the formation of carbon deposits. Although this claim comes from several sources, there is no scientific evidence to support it.
OIL PROPERTIES:
Two physical properties should be taken into account regarding the burning potential of engine oil:
1. Flash point: The temperature at which engine oil will briefly ignite, but not sustain a flame.
2. Fire point: The temperature at which engine oil will sustain a flame.
There is speculation that synthetic engine oils will not burn in an engine combustion chamber based on the assumption that synthetic oils handle higher temperatures better than conventional petroleum-based engine oils. For the RENESIS engine, Mazda recommends using SAE 5W-20 engine oil meeting API SM/SL and ILSAC specifications. The following is a comparison chart of the typical flash points of various SAE 5W-20 and SAE 0W-20 engine oils found in the marketplace:
FLASH POINT COMPARISON Celsius
AMSOIL 0W-20 (ASM) 228
AMSOIL XL 5W-20 (XLM) 226
Mazda 5W-20 221
Mobil Clean 5000 5W-20 200
Mobil 1 5W-30 228
Mobil 1 Supersyn 0W-20 236
Motorcraft 5W-20 220
Castrol GTX 5W-20 228
Valvoline Conventional 5W-20 220
Valvoline Durablend 5W-20 236
Valvoline Synpower 5W-30 221
Pennzoil Conventional 5W-20 229
Pennzoil Synthetic 5W-20 224
As seen in the chart, the flash points between the petroleum and synthetic engine oils are very similar, meaning each should burn at about the same temperature in the combustion chamber of the RENESIS engine.
CARBON DEPOSITS:
As noted in the Mazda bulletin, carbon formation in the RENESIS engine can lead to engine misfire and knocking. Carbon deposit formation may not be due to the type of base oil, but can also be related to the ash content of the oil additive package. Higher ash content oils can form more carbon deposits than lower ash content oils. In recent years, API and ILSAC have reduced the ash content in engine oil to below 0.80% (max) by weight to meet API SM, ILSAC GF-4 specifications. Because all SAE xW-20 engine oils are required to have low ash, there is less tendency for carbon formation when they are burned in the combustion chamber.
MAZDA RECOMMENDATION:
Mazda Engineering recommends the use of designated genuine engine oil and the following guidelines:
• Engine oil should be changed regularly.
• Only designated genuine oil be recommended to customers.
• Under severe conditions, oil should be changed at 5,000 km or every 6 months.
The Mazda owner’s manual for the RX8 models with the RENESIS engine calls for the use of SAE 5W-20 engine oil that meets API SM/SL and is ILSAC rated. However, it does not specify what type of oil to use or issue any warnings about the use of synthetic engine oil.
AMSOIL RECOMMENDATION:
AMSOIL recommends AMSOIL 0W-20 Synthetic Motor Oil (ASM) and 5W-20 XL Synthetic Motor Oil (XLM) for Mazda RENESIS engine applications. ASM and XLM are premium oils meeting API SM/SL requirements. AMSOIL recommends following Mazda recommended oil change intervals and closely monitoring engine performance.
Submitted By: DW Reviewed By: DP Approved By: Alan Amatuzio Approval Date: 5/28/09 Distribution: All
TSB: MO-2007-09-06
AMSOIL Technical Service Bulletin
Date: Rev. 1: 5/15/09
Product Description: AMSOIL SAE 0W-20 (ASM) and XL 5W-20 (XLM) Engine Oil
Subject: Using AMSOIL ASM and XLM in the Mazda RENESIS Rotary Engine
OBJECTIVE:
Provide information about the use of synthetic engine oil in the Mazda RENESIS rotary engine.
ISSUES:
According to Mazda Corporation Engineering bulletin #06010010 dated 10/27/2006, injecting synthetic engine oil into the combustion chamber of the RENESIS engine may lead to carbon buildup that adversely affects engine performance. Mazda conducted a case study with the use of synthetic engine oil in the rotary engine, finding it caused a large amount of viscous carbon buildup on the side housing. Mazda did not conclude that this carbon buildup contributed to adverse engine performance, but did state that if carbon buildup adheres near the spark plug hole, or to the seals in the combustion chamber, it may lead to adverse effects such as engine misfire or knocking.
At this time, AMSOIL does not have any test data to support this position. However, there is also no test data illustrating any long-term effects of using synthetic engine oil in the RENESIS engine.
Mazda Engineering did state that “not all synthetic oil is at a disadvantage in terms of carbon buildup, but use of untested, non-genuine oil should be avoided.”
TECHNICAL DISCUSSION:
Mazda has produced different versions of the rotary engine over the years. The design is comprised of a three-lobed rotor that rotates inside an oval-shaped chamber to create combustion. Because of this design, its lubricating requirements are slightly different than those of a typical piston design engine. To lubricate the rotor and seals, a metering oil pump injects a small amount of the engine oil into the rotor chamber. Numerous articles and technical discussion boards claim synthetic engine oils do not burn completely in the rotary engine, leading to the formation of carbon deposits. Although this claim comes from several sources, there is no scientific evidence to support it.
OIL PROPERTIES:
Two physical properties should be taken into account regarding the burning potential of engine oil:
1. Flash point: The temperature at which engine oil will briefly ignite, but not sustain a flame.
2. Fire point: The temperature at which engine oil will sustain a flame.
There is speculation that synthetic engine oils will not burn in an engine combustion chamber based on the assumption that synthetic oils handle higher temperatures better than conventional petroleum-based engine oils. For the RENESIS engine, Mazda recommends using SAE 5W-20 engine oil meeting API SM/SL and ILSAC specifications. The following is a comparison chart of the typical flash points of various SAE 5W-20 and SAE 0W-20 engine oils found in the marketplace:
FLASH POINT COMPARISON Celsius
AMSOIL 0W-20 (ASM) 228
AMSOIL XL 5W-20 (XLM) 226
Mazda 5W-20 221
Mobil Clean 5000 5W-20 200
Mobil 1 5W-30 228
Mobil 1 Supersyn 0W-20 236
Motorcraft 5W-20 220
Castrol GTX 5W-20 228
Valvoline Conventional 5W-20 220
Valvoline Durablend 5W-20 236
Valvoline Synpower 5W-30 221
Pennzoil Conventional 5W-20 229
Pennzoil Synthetic 5W-20 224
As seen in the chart, the flash points between the petroleum and synthetic engine oils are very similar, meaning each should burn at about the same temperature in the combustion chamber of the RENESIS engine.
CARBON DEPOSITS:
As noted in the Mazda bulletin, carbon formation in the RENESIS engine can lead to engine misfire and knocking. Carbon deposit formation may not be due to the type of base oil, but can also be related to the ash content of the oil additive package. Higher ash content oils can form more carbon deposits than lower ash content oils. In recent years, API and ILSAC have reduced the ash content in engine oil to below 0.80% (max) by weight to meet API SM, ILSAC GF-4 specifications. Because all SAE xW-20 engine oils are required to have low ash, there is less tendency for carbon formation when they are burned in the combustion chamber.
MAZDA RECOMMENDATION:
Mazda Engineering recommends the use of designated genuine engine oil and the following guidelines:
• Engine oil should be changed regularly.
• Only designated genuine oil be recommended to customers.
• Under severe conditions, oil should be changed at 5,000 km or every 6 months.
The Mazda owner’s manual for the RX8 models with the RENESIS engine calls for the use of SAE 5W-20 engine oil that meets API SM/SL and is ILSAC rated. However, it does not specify what type of oil to use or issue any warnings about the use of synthetic engine oil.
AMSOIL RECOMMENDATION:
AMSOIL recommends AMSOIL 0W-20 Synthetic Motor Oil (ASM) and 5W-20 XL Synthetic Motor Oil (XLM) for Mazda RENESIS engine applications. ASM and XLM are premium oils meeting API SM/SL requirements. AMSOIL recommends following Mazda recommended oil change intervals and closely monitoring engine performance.
Submitted By: DW Reviewed By: DP Approved By: Alan Amatuzio Approval Date: 5/28/09 Distribution: All
http://syntheticlubricants.ca/TSB/MO...y%20Engine.pdf
Last edited by @!!narotordo; 03-15-2010 at 06:05 AM.
03-15-2010, 10:25 AM
#1214
Pretty reasonable, although I don't think everyone will agree that a Sohn adapter is needed from an engine longevity standpoint if you want to run synthetic.
Here is one more point to make:
This, to me, is the best argument for dino oil. I've run Royal Purple in the past, but since I was changing oil at 3,000 miles or more frequently, I was not getting the main benefit of a synthetic, which is an extended OCI. So why pay the $$$?
Of course, track use and/or forced induction is another story.
Here is one more point to make:
Of course, track use and/or forced induction is another story.
03-15-2010, 01:47 PM
#1215
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
I often wonder, I have run the SOHN since my engine was installed and a catless midpipe, and I get a **** load of carbon on the tips a day or two after they are shined and perfectly clean. I think this is a good thing, I think the 2 stroke is doing its job and the carbon is exiting the engine.
Wishful thinking?
Wishful thinking?
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 03-15-2010 at 01:54 PM.
03-15-2010, 02:58 PM
#1217
I think that's mostly wishful thinking. In general, the vast majority of the carbon exits via the exhaust. This is true even for a car that has significant carbon buildup in the engine.
The fact that your car soots up the exhaust tips quicker than a car with a cat has more to do with the molecular makeup of the exhaust (which the cat alters) than anything else.
Also could have something to do with your driving habits.
The fact that your car soots up the exhaust tips quicker than a car with a cat has more to do with the molecular makeup of the exhaust (which the cat alters) than anything else.
Also could have something to do with your driving habits.
03-15-2010, 03:54 PM
#1218
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Yeah I know the stock tips get sooty (sic) too but when I was stock they would take months to get to a point that only takes a day or two now. Probably because of the lack of cat converter.
03-21-2010, 04:28 AM
#1220
FLAME ON!
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WOT! Just picked up some 5W-30 nippon eneos synthetic motor oil. 1 Quart, Pack of 6 was like $6 each. The 5W-20 was $8 each 
. So I got two six packs of the 5W-30 lol 
and the best part. Its going in tomorrow 
. So I got two six packs of the 5W-30 lol and the best part. Its going in tomorrow
04-07-2010, 05:53 PM
#1221
Lubricious
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Thought I'd share the lead story from Blackstone's April newsletter: "To all the oils I've loved before". Probably a good bit of wisdom here. 'course I'm stickin' with Mobil1 :D
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/newsletters.php?ID=63
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/newsletters.php?ID=63
04-08-2010, 06:46 AM
#1222
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I have for years raced motocross using 2 stroke engines. having had many engines apart I have found that the old mineral oil creates massive amounts of carbon deposits, the "new" synthetic oils in particular castrol tts burn very clean leaving much less carbon and keep engines in much better condition. with less oil needed as well. As for putting 2 stroke oil in your tank-its a well known way (in the 2stroke racing world) of altering the air/oil mixture more oil=leaner less oil= richer different viscosity = different flow rate
would the rx8 ecu compensate for this? or are engines run with 2 stroke oil in the tank running lean?
would the rx8 ecu compensate for this? or are engines run with 2 stroke oil in the tank running lean?
04-08-2010, 06:59 AM
#1223
Registered
The ecu has no way of knowing whether you put premix in the fuel tank. The factory set-up manages motor oil injection (from the sump, not a separate 2-stroke tank) into the rotor chambers based on criteria such as engine speed, load, etc. Premix in the fuel is just additional to this.
Last edited by PeteInLongBeach; 04-08-2010 at 07:03 AM.
04-09-2010, 05:35 AM
#1224
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Renesis is nothing like a 2 stroke engine. Putting in premix does nothing for it, everone just thinks like that because of herd mentality. Makes me laugh reading all the posts here about "Miracle" and "Magic" oils supposed to do this and that...just lighten your wallet is all they manage! Probably clog up a few things in the process. SOHN adapter....load of crap, only used in dry sump racing engines for obvious reasons (the pump don't work), completely useless for normal set up.
Likewise synthetics are no good for Renesis. How much eveidnce you guys want to see? Anyway, any old oil can be called "synthetic" in US so it don't really matter what you call it, it's pointless discussion.
The biggest enemy for Renesis engines is you, fiddling around with gadgets and oils that will implode your engine rapido.....see the evidence here. Guys with 3 engine replacements in under 40k still giving out advice!! ,,,give us a break!
Likewise synthetics are no good for Renesis. How much eveidnce you guys want to see? Anyway, any old oil can be called "synthetic" in US so it don't really matter what you call it, it's pointless discussion.
The biggest enemy for Renesis engines is you, fiddling around with gadgets and oils that will implode your engine rapido.....see the evidence here. Guys with 3 engine replacements in under 40k still giving out advice!! ,,,give us a break!
I have for years raced motocross using 2 stroke engines. having had many engines apart I have found that the old mineral oil creates massive amounts of carbon deposits, the "new" synthetic oils in particular castrol tts burn very clean leaving much less carbon and keep engines in much better condition. with less oil needed as well. As for putting 2 stroke oil in your tank-its a well known way (in the 2stroke racing world) of altering the air/oil mixture more oil=leaner less oil= richer different viscosity = different flow rate
would the rx8 ecu compensate for this? or are engines run with 2 stroke oil in the tank running lean?
would the rx8 ecu compensate for this? or are engines run with 2 stroke oil in the tank running lean?
Last edited by caramba; 04-09-2010 at 05:37 AM.
04-09-2010, 07:01 AM
#1225
Renesis is nothing like a 2 stroke engine. Putting in premix does nothing for it, everone just thinks like that because of herd mentality. Makes me laugh reading all the posts here about "Miracle" and "Magic" oils supposed to do this and that...just lighten your wallet is all they manage! Probably clog up a few things in the process. SOHN adapter....load of crap, only used in dry sump racing engines for obvious reasons (the pump don't work), completely useless for normal set up.
Likewise synthetics are no good for Renesis. How much eveidnce you guys want to see? Anyway, any old oil can be called "synthetic" in US so it don't really matter what you call it, it's pointless discussion.
The biggest enemy for Renesis engines is you, fiddling around with gadgets and oils that will implode your engine rapido.....see the evidence here. Guys with 3 engine replacements in under 40k still giving out advice!! ,,,give us a break!
Likewise synthetics are no good for Renesis. How much eveidnce you guys want to see? Anyway, any old oil can be called "synthetic" in US so it don't really matter what you call it, it's pointless discussion.
The biggest enemy for Renesis engines is you, fiddling around with gadgets and oils that will implode your engine rapido.....see the evidence here. Guys with 3 engine replacements in under 40k still giving out advice!! ,,,give us a break!
Not all oil can be called Synthetic in the US jackass.
get ur fact straight b4 u open ur worthless mouth again.