nycgps

iTrader: (1)

ASH8, do you have any of those "facepalm" pic that I can use? I need one. so many "expert" these days, I need to post one of those pics.

bse50

Rofl, i hope you're not referring to me for my 10a\12a comments
I was just contestualizing to that days and the (at the time) mandatory use of mineral oils because of said swelling problems

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

you? take a guess

that problem was long gone too. Mazda updated the seals, same thing for oil(and the additives)

so, do u have one of those facepalm pic that I can use ?

bse50

Yep, i know that they are long gone now but that's why almost every form of oil debate started. I guess that at times it is a good thing to remember that we're well past the 20th century!

Try this:

Or better suit, this:

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

LOL ! muhahahahahahahaha, omg u almost killed me ! LMAO !

bse50

Cheers!

Flashwing

Ash are you able to provide any facts other than throwing around a parts catalog?

twistedwankel

iTrader: (6)

http://www.upmpg.com/motor_oil_rate_gas.htm

Amsoil is pretty well respected and this is off their current website.

More info on this site than anyone really needs to know unless a chemical engineer?

SpIcEz

Nice sales pitch.

Oh and, its not like we don't know about affiliate programs and website retailer re-directing.

Good luck with that

DocBeech

iTrader: (1)

why do you need synthetic? its a great novelty but in an engine that burns the oil its also an expensive one. Whats wrong with Castrol GTX?

WTBRotary!

iTrader: (6)

^^^ Sigh... You seem to do alot of reading... Research...

DocBeech

iTrader: (1)

yeah I do, Just look at your engine. You have gone through three of them already. Im sure we want to follow your lead. Or look at the guys who ran mobil 1 and hurt their engines.

Until someone can show me they have found a synthetic oil that burns cleanly and will maintain the seals its out of the question at this point. Having used synthetics only two oil changes in my car, and at 80K+ miles my vehicle passed a compression test.

How did your engine hold up? How about the one before that? How many do you plan to blow before you realize all this crap your doing to your car is worthless?

Rotary Inspired

iTrader: (1)

I have been running Royal Purple for years in rotaries. No problems, ever. No deposits. I have torn down motors, some my own some of other peoples, that have been running RP for 60K + miles. I believe it helps the bearings and burns cleaner from what I have seen. I have never run less than 10-40 even in the RX8 I had. It's in my current FD. The funny thing is that Mazda states to use synthetic in race applications. Sorry if all this was a repost. I am not on here a ton and I am not reading 58 pages.

WTBRotary!

iTrader: (6)

I find it amusing how you have yet to actually ask me about what happened to them , and trying to discredit me, but heard from other members. If you like to get accurate information and learn something on what happened to my motors then by all means PM me and I will gladly toss you my phone number so I can tell you, or ill even toss you my email. I could give two ***** if people or you want to follow what I do, Its my car and I know what im putting into her. People that use conventional are missing out and thats their loss, I really dont care.

Putting in synthetic on your car at 80K miles wont do a dang thing and IMO should be obvious, the damage is done, you think your engine is going to just restore what conventional oil did not protect. You are wasting your money my friend, synthetic will do nothing for you at that mileage. Its a known fact that synthetics protect better than conventional.

Do your reseach and stop acting like you know it all and one of us has to prove something to you. Do us all a favor and go research. You joined here 4 months ago, you think being here that long and having a pink name makes you know what you're talking about? You have alot more to learn, this forum has been here more than a couple of years, chances are the question you just asked has been anwsered before.

The question you have asked has been anwsered before, go read all 58 pages of this and you will realize why people use Synthetics.

+1

I have yet to tear down any engines but its been an itch thats only getting stronger. I would of helped a local forum member here tear down his after his engine lost compression but I had work unfortunately.

DocBeech

iTrader: (1)

Yeah I know Maz Comp recommends it only for non highway race applications. I actually have ran the oil twice. The problem is that its not the same oil you can buy. Its extremely high in additives and zinc. Where you run into issues is with the catalytic convertor. I have had the chance to do some talking at events with guys, and the reason they are able to run an oil more rich in addititives is that they aren't running pollution controls. The additives will burn out the CAT in a very short time. This is the same problem you will run into especially with the RX8 since we are burning oil.

I first found out about destroying cats with race oil over 10 years ago when I burned out a CAT in a single track day event using off-road race only non highway oils. Litearlly in a single day I was able to burn through it.

I am waiting to see if a better synthetic comes out. Playing this round robin, round table crap doesn't help. Well I use this oil, well I use that oil. We all know about certain oils for sure not to use. Also running a high flow cat helps to prevent the early burn out a little. The real answer though requires you to not be running a cat, and using an oil high in additives. Either I am left running cat less, and risking the ticket with a race synthetic high in zinc, or running with a cat and just using castrol GTX.

Flashwing

DocBeech, before you start poking people as a means of proving your point you might want to expand your search a bit more before calling the science settled on synthetic motor oil use in the RX8.

I've used synthetic in my RENESIS for over 100,000 miles and the motor was doing fairly well till I blew it in a fit of stupidity.

The results of blueprinting the motor showed that all non-damaged parts are within Mazda's specifications and can easily be reused if so desired. Sure it's a single example but considering there is only 1 or 2 motor tear downs with over 100,000 miles on RX8club that were factory motors I'd say that carries considerable weight.

This thread alone is filled with tons of information as to the advantages that synthetic oil provides over mineral oil. The notion that the oil doesn't burn as complete doesn't make a whole lot of sense considering combustion chamber temperatures are much higher than the flash point of oil. By your logic, all internal combustion engines would have issues with oil building up carbon.

The majority of carbon buildup within the rotary engine is from gasoline which produces much more carbon than the injected oil.

That being said, it's not necessary to use synthetic to keep a rotary running. In fact, any of the API certified oils have been put through many tests to ensure they are quality products. It mostly comes down to how often you change your oil.

And finally, as if I haven't beat this horse to death enough, much of the engine failures are due to a LACK of oil rather than a type. This creates excessive seal wear which then translates into compression loss.

So you run race oil on the street? True race oils are designed for maybe 500 miles of use, extreme temperatures and high loads. It's not something designed for the kinds of long term use on the street. You would be better off switching back to Castrol.

ASH8

"throwing around"??..

For me and any Mazda Part dealer the "Facts" are their genuine Mazda EPC's, and Experience/Knowledge.

The Bible with ALL the Facts is the EPC.

The "Experience" side of the matter, I have well over 2 decades of Mazda Parts knowledge/sales.

It is not that difficult, however, you have to know "How" Mazda Part numbering system works and the "Model Code/Use" of the Part Number and the models the parts fits or is made for.

Unfortunately many young Parts guys have no clue "where" or which model "a" particular parts originates from as they have not grown up with earlier Mazda's.

As I have said before, ALL Mazda parts are made up of the following..

I will use 3 examples...

AAAA-BB-CCCc Part Number for layout.

0820-10-502B Bearing Stationary Gear
8871-15-521 Radiator Hose
N3R1-14-600 Pump Metering Oil

Middle Two Digits (BB) is the location of the Part on the Vehicle, 10 is Engine, 15 Cooling System, 14 Oil Pump and Filter.

Last 3 or 4 Digit/Alpha of Part Number (CCCc) is the actual Part Number, in some cases an A, B, or C etc at the end of part number designates a "modification" or slight change to that part.

First 4 Digit/Alpha section of the Part Number (AAAA) is the MODEL CODE of the part, in other words which model Mazda(s) does that part fit or ORIGINATE from.

0820 is from 1969 Mazda R100, 8871 is 1978 RX-7, N3R1 is 2009 (S2) RX-8.

So with experience you get to know all the Early Model Codes of Mazda Part Numbers..I will stick with Rotary Engines (cars) in examples..

0810, 0811, 0813 is Cosmo 110A
0820, 0821 is Mazda R100
0839,1881 is RX-2
0866,0870,1668,1907 is RX-3
1011,1015,1757,3648 is RX-4
3648,3452 is RX-5
8871 RX-7 (SA22C)
N326 RX-7 FC
N3A1 RX-7 FD
N3H1,N3H2,F151,F152 RX-8
N3R1,N3R2,F189,F190 RX-8 2009~ S2

There are a few others for Body Parts, Lights, Nuts and Bolts.

**********************************************


So take these 3 Examples...
0820-10-502B Bearing Stationary Gear
8871-15-521 Radiator Hose
N3R1-14-600 Pump Metering Oil

Stationary Gear Bearing originate from Mazda R100.
Radiator Hose (Lower) from 1st Gen RX-7
Pump Metering Oil from 2009 RX-8 (S2)

An EPC 'Hit List' search on a Series 1 RX-8 (mechanical parts) can show me 7 Parts that originated from the very first Cosmo (0810), including Rotary Engine Parts, Diff, Oil Pump, Transmission. 3 from R100 including Stationary Gear Bearings (4 port), and 17 from RX-2, Oil Pump, Trans.. TOTAL of around 27 parts from 1969 to 1973.

PLUS

19 parts from RX-4.

4 from RX-5

12 From 1st Gen RX-7

22 From FC RX-7

8 From FD RX-7

Then you add in the RX-8 (S1) Engine Specific parts of 35 (excluding manifolds, alternators, air pumps, starters).

Also 15 exclusive to the Series II RX-8 in engine like, Rotor Housings, all Irons, Front Cover, Oil Pan, gaskets.

I can compile a 'Hit List' of ALL the parts in a Series 1 RX-8 and where they originated from Model Code wise (obviously the majority are RX-8 Exclusive, like lights and panels, trim), but would take some time, screen shots are too large for here.

I am not sure what "facts" you require, and as I have said before, if you walked into ANY Mazda Parts Dealer and asked for set of Genuine Stationary Gear Bearings for a 2004 RX-8 Auto, this is what would be supplied, 0820-10-502B, the same part number for a R100, RX-2, RX-3, RX-4, RX-5, RX-7 (SA22C and NA FC).

If you wanted oil pump Rotors for a S1 RX-8, you would be supplied with N326-14-140, the same as an FC RX-7...Oil Pump Chain is the same N326-14-151.

If you wanted 4 inner and 4 outer Rotor Housing O Rings (Genuine), you would be suppled with N326-10-B71A and N326-10-B72, same as FC RX-7, FD RX-7

If you wanted a set of Oil Control Rings, N3Z1-11-S10A (4), same for 99.9% Rotaries.

By Pass Valve 3648-14-250, same as FC RX-7, RX-4,5.

When the Part Number is the same then the part inside is the same.

Edit:
Here is some Mazda Parts info just thrown together, note how the Bearings
are the same for the past 40 years in 10A R100, 10A and 12A RX-3, 13B FC RX-7, and 2003 RX-8 Auto.
Anyone wish to tell me these are not the same parts?

DocBeech

iTrader: (1)

I understand mazda screwed up by not having the apex seal oil injectors. Premixing is probably the better solution to fixing this. A clean burning two stroke oil, vs a synthetic that the consequences are unknown about. I especially wouldn't trust someone that has gone through multiple engines in a short amount of time. Just because you have the money to waste on something doesn't mean you are doing the right thing for the vehicle. Again the racing oils run higher in additives. Sure mazda recommends them for non road use, but most non road legal vehicles have components un affected by these oils and are running ehtanol free fuels. We don't have that advantage.

I still havn't seen anyone address the fact of oil seal swelling. Synthetics and conventional oils do not have the same affect on seals. Are your seals un touched because they don't swell to the full potential to allow for rubbing? What is the possible damage done by the difference in how synthetics affect seals? How about this tear down of an engine:

https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/check-out-cracked-corner-seals-208359/

Royal purple didn't seem to help him much.

The first time I got to be on a rotary vehicle was my dads suzuki RE5. My dad was and still is obsessed with bikes. All ages, and all kinds. He has bicycle chain driven bikes, shaft driven yamahas. The first bike taught me on was a 1984 yamaha 350. Even back in the 80's people were saying synthetic is bad for rotaries.

What about the issue that some synthetics are not known to burn as clean. Or how about metering. Were our engines designed to meter synthetic oil in the blue printing? Maybe you need more oil dumped in if you run a synthetic. These vairables also change based on where you live. Air pressure, temp, and the type of fuel you get change your oil needs. Here we get crap 10% ethanol. which is more drying on seals in engines than places who get ethanol free fuels.

ASH8

Todd as always is spot on with this one.

It is the "lack of oil" getting to the right places, namely Apex Seals and Corner.

We all know Mazda goofed (or was it Ford at the time??) by not continuing with a middle Oil Weeper on each Rotor Housing like they have done for the past 25 years since they have been "direct injecting" Engine oil for Apex seal lube.

That is why a few on here, particularly myself was saying YOU MUST Pre-Mix.

Almost everyone said crap to me.

Ask oneself why Mazda went back to Middle Weepers and an all new MOP set up that uses Engine Oil Pressure (again I was crapped on ).

I personally get fed up listening to Oil Debates...it is bullshit..

For the record I used Castrol GTX-3 (here), all mineral 15W40, my Mazda Japan printed owners manual says I can use it...hell even 20W50 is OK by them.

What I do is change the oil religiously every 5,000KMS or 3K Miles and do a double flush, and I renew Oil Filter (that is prob not as necessary).

Castrol is cheap, and I get to move out most of all the old oil....well it is better than one change in my book, and yes, I could use Synthetic, but in the end the cost with a double flush is the same.

IMO there are 2 most important Tasks that MUST be done.
Always make sure OIL level is checked and Full, NEVER let it get past below the 50% level on stick., and ALWAYS Pre-Mix.

OH and change engine Oil at least twice a year.

WTBRotary!

iTrader: (6)

Once again I do not care if you follow me or not. I offered you information on my past engines and what happened to them but you obviously have decided to not take it. Since you continue to try to tell me and everyone else I have no idea what im talking about because of the number of engines ive gone through I will take time to tell you what happened with them.

My first RX8 was used and had not been taken care of. Hardly ever redlined, once I got her I redlined it alot. As I was driving my mother one day she noticed it felt slow and very sluggish, I had not realized this and took it to Mazda. Received a call from Mazda a few days later after taking my car in, they stated my engine had "Excessive Carbon" and was going to be replaced. At that time ~2 years ago the remanufactured rotary engines were being reproduced horribly with remans going out of the door with out of spec seals everywhere, even leaking oil.

I received my engine about 2 weeks later and as I took it home the oil light popped up. I looked underneath the car and oil was dripping. I took the car back and was told I would need ANOTHER engine. The service manger apologized saying she had no idea why this is happening.

I got the car back about a week and a half later with yet another reman and on the drive home it felt pretty good and strong. A week after I had her the oil light popped on again and once again I looked underneath the car and found oil to be dripping again barely. I had no oil on the dipstick. Furious I take my car back the Mazda Dealer and complain. The service advisor had no new information at the time and I told her to make the payments on the car since I basically had not drove it the past month and a half. The next day I receive a call from the Tech who told me that the facility Mazda had hired how to remanufacture these engines was doing a VERY poor job and that Madza was opening a new facility in Virginia (If I recall correctly) and that Mazda had sent out people to make sure the new plant got the job done right.

I got my car back within 3 days after the call and that engine ran perfectly fine. No problems what so ever for the 15K miles I put on it before I sold her.

Are you satisfied now Doc? To get all of the information... I had NOTHING to do with those engines.

With my recent engine its still a mystery how I lost compression and apparently had "No Apex Seals" on Rotor #1 according to Regional Tech Specialist despite him not actually opening up my motor. In the next couple of weeks I am starting a thread on that after I get the diagnosis from Mazda on what really happened, read it. You might learn something. But from my research and from talking to Charles Hill (BHR) on the phone we both came to the conclusion that what probably happened is my coils were starting to go bad which led to unburnt fuel to enter my CAT and clog it thus causing me to lose compression.

We do have Apex seal oil injectors, we just dont have a middle one to further lubricate the middle of the apex seal. There is no hard evidence that premixing even works. Sure its a good idea and we hope that it works but there being a lack of evidence makes it null to me.

To take a excerpt from Street Rotary by Mark Warner, "Tests have shown nearly ideentical wear between engines that pre-mix and those that utilize the OEM oil-metering pump"

Now the Sohn Adapter is a different thing. Richard Sohn teamed up with Rotary Aviation, a aftermarket aircraft company, to make an adapter plate that mounts between the OEM oil-metering pump and the engine. This blocks off the oil flow from the pan to the OMP. Obviously the the advantage is to run a two stroke oil which burns cleaner.

Are you serious? Did you even read the post? Look at that Rotor bearing, its completely fine and can be reused ALL BECAUSE OF ROYAL PURPLE. The dedicated and knowledgeable forum members here who do rebuilds have stated numerous times that Rotor Bearings are in perfect condition and have very mininimal wear. Seals used to swell when they were composed of a different material back in the 70's and 80's which is why, below, people said syntheics were bad for rotaries. Since then the seals used are made of a different material and do not swell, this was fixed ALONG time ago.


Seals back then were composed of a different material and synthetics were not compatible. If you did your reseach you SHOULD know this.

Do you really think the the flow characteristics are completely different from conventional and synthetics that our OMP doesnt work as efficiently using synthetics? Wow... Maybe you dont even know what your talking about... Can you please state your information on how ethanol drying out our seals? Where did you find this information, please show us the source.

This REALLY rubbed me the wrong way. You offended me the first time we met calling me rich and wealthy and I gave you the benefit of the doubt thinking you had no idea what you were saying and to quote you from the first time we met "He can just buy another one". You sir have NO right to call me that, you do NOT even know me. Do not assume you know my morals/values as a person or try to connect me with the negative connotation of wealthy people. Manners go along way, you might want to consider that since no one has showed much interest so far in the December meet you posted up. I find it amusing because of the fact that I am young and because I had to borrow my parents car to come to the local install meet you think I am some snobby rich kid. I came to the install meet to offer my help and knowledge on what I know about the car, sadly I was not wearing my car clothes to get down and dirty with y'all. Did it even occur to you that I owe money on my car? That I have a car payment? If I recall correctly when I first met you I shook your hand and you took one look at me and the car I got out of and judged me.

Yes I am shaken up by this, If anything I have probably gone a overboard but that does not change the fact the I still think I deserve a apology to say the least as you continue to offend me.


Ash is correct, oil debates make all of us very tired. He uses Castrol, cool, its oil some people use synthetics, some dont, jesus as long as you have oil in the car and keep it topped off you will be fine. Ash believes in pre-mixing, I myself think its a pain in the *** and unnecessary and with no hard evidience that it works ill pass. I do believe the Sohn Adapter works though and I plan to get one here shortly as I have a opportunity to make this engine I just received to last a long time. The only con is its a reman, but remans are made alot better than they were before. We will see how I do...

Cobra Driver

I'm new to this Renesis motor and don't feel qualified at all to make any statements re: this machines specifics or inner workings, but when it comes to oil we can keep that separate and theres only one answer for me there.

A point I haven't heard yet brought up is, "what do they do in aviation?"

Seems like thats a model for mechanical wear and tear with rotation speeds in excess of 60k RPM, with constant temperatures ranging anywhere from 400-900 Celsius (depending on your engine type) not Farenheit for hours at a time, where reliability and safety is paramount and frequent engine maintenance/replacement expense is extremely cost prohibitive.

So what do we use? Mobil Synthetic

If it's good enough for my turbine it's more than enuff for my 3K rpm street machine. Every piece of equipment I own has synthetic, from the lawn mower to the John Deere. The '98 Ram's got 248K and runnin like a baby. Now when it comes to the Renesis, I have alot of work to do on this one, but u guys do say 5-6 oil changes for a break-in period. That should do nicely.

Excellent site and great info here, u guys rock

CD

WTBRotary!

iTrader: (6)

^^^ Glad to have you with us Cobra, and welcome.

Flashwing

The motor had apex seal failure. No oil on the planet would be able to save the motor when that happens. Why the seal failed is anyone's guess. Without any idea of the conditions of the motor at the time, fuel quality, air/fuel etc. we can only guess.

To point and say the fact that the motor was using royal purple and conclude it's the reason for the failure is like having a dead guy beat with a baseball bat and saying he died because he wore Levi jeans instead of dockers.

Plenty of motors have failed using conventional motor oil as well.


Edit:

Seems WTBRotary! has laid out the facts of the issue. Sounds to me like he gets his information from a reliable source.

WTBRotary!

iTrader: (6)

+ 1,000,000

Thank you Todd... That made me feel SO much better...

oh and lets not forget about that near perfect Rotor Bearing...

DocBeech

iTrader: (1)

I'm sure they installed your engine with no apex seals in it, and it had nothing to do with them being damaged or destroyed along the way.

I am also certain that you can't say that royal purple saved his bearings. I was in no way even talking about bearings. I am talking about the damage to his seals, and even the engine housing.

lol I didn't have to know your morals and values other people were happy enough to warn me before you got there. So your saying that you intentionally came to a car install meet, but didn't intentionally dress to work on a car? Well now that makes sense.

Before you even got there I was warned how many cars you have gone through, but I have also been told by more than one person, at more than one meet that you do look down on some people, and that you have been harrasing and degrading to other people. So I took that knowledge and treated you like ****. When more than one person tells me things that aren't so nice about how you have treated them, at more than one meet it seems well deserved.

Also keep in mind you were over heard bragging about how many engines you have gone through, and what you have managed to do to cars in the past. Don't come in here talking about your moral standings when people pre warn me before you show up about the ways you have treated other people.

We were at a gas station and you were talking down about the people that lived in anna. You were talking bad about the type of fuel they might have in the pumps. It was ethanol free 93 octane non blended fuel. Yet all you had to say about the place were nasty things.

Oh I forgot to add heres the link for you: http://www.fuel-testers.com/list_e10_engine_damage.html