Long story short...

My engine failed compression tests today. Both rotors.

Of all the horror stories, I never thought it would happen to me because I know how meticulous I am with maintenance and how informed I am of the quirks of the Renesis. I don't drive like my *** is on fire, I can't afford the speeding tickets or loss of gas mileage. But I definitely don't drive like a granny and fully understand the need for this engine to function best at higher rpm's. My service records are complete and flawless. I also have all records from the previous owner, who never missed an oil change or flash update or recall service.

What worries me is that they requested maintenance records because when they drained the oil, they think it drained out a quart too much. The oil level was fine, a little toward full end but still within range on the dipstick, immediately after the last oil change (~1500 miles ago). I checked it along with my tire pressure after leaving there and arriving home just to make sure everything was ok, since it wasn't done at the dealer but with a shop that I have used for a few years and trust. In addition, a Mazda Full Circle complimentary check was done 2 weeks ago when I took it in for the squeaky throw-out bearing and nothing unusual was noted on any fluids at all.

Is it possible (since I know my oil level was fine and routinely uses the same amount of oil) that the overage would be from gas being dumped into the oil from the flooding? My dad suggested this but I have never read anything like this and he is a great mechanic but not experienced with rotaries. Totally makes sense to me, and would explain the smoking. I would like to ask them if the oil smelled like gas. It has probably been disposed of by now.

I just hope Mazda Corp does the right thing and lives up to it's warranty and doesn't try to pin the engine cost on me because of the extra oil volume. I am literally sick over this... I love my car and I just want it fixed properly and I don't feel I am to blame at all.

Also, I still maintain that the service advisor and manager are genuinely trying to keep me satisfied and get my car back to normal.

I just hate waiting in limbo. Make me wanna hurl.

 

just read the thread - sorry to hear it is terminal .

The excess oil is a worry but can't see how gas would get in there . Hope they replace it for free for you .

 

Thanks... I just honestly don't think it was overfilled at any point.

 

that was part of the recall.. it would not fail from an overfill..

all it would do is push oil into the intake... sounds like they did not preform all the tests for the recall... missed the drive then idle then drive again.

glad we figured it out.. my new motor runs better than the old one that ran very well...

pm me if you need any documents to help your case..

beers

 

Thanks... I will. And glad to know that you have had good luck with your new engine. I will hope for the same.

 

you need to get us acopy of the compression test results so we can adequately diagnose the results.

but prior to that- the still not idling and dying etc right after a coil adn spark plug replacement sounds suspicious to me. i t leads me to think in a completly different direction. they may have not replaced the coils correctly causing iginiton problems which is causing the stumbling /dieing idle. there is also a possibilty that the eccentric shaft profile stored in the memory is incorrect and needs to be reset. that is what abbid was hoping would fix itself with the 20 break stomp thing. basically it remembers the order the coils/plugs are supposed to be fired in. here is a picture



that gear looking thing with the sensor on the side tells the computer where the engine is at in its rotation. the pcm keeps a "snapshot" of this gear in its memory so when it starts it knows if/when it needs to fire the coils and plugs. after certain repairs this snapshot can be wrong and needs to be reset. you have to disconnect the battery and do the 20 brake stomp as described by swoope and abbid. when you previously did ht e20 stomp reset did your oil guage on the dash sweep from left to right?

what is the model year of your car? if you posted it before i seem to have missed it. i gather its not a 2006 tho?

another thing- did they replace your starter? hard to start when warm is often a symptom of a bad starter. a bad starter could be causing a drain on the whole electrical system.

dont worry about how much oil they got out when they changed it. it just means they got some out of the oil cooler lines

last thought- can you get a proper compression test result if the eshaft profile needs reset? or if the coils are not installed properly?

did they do a compression test or did they do the new vacuum test that is part of the recall?

 

It's an 04 manual, just under 37k miles.

I was told "failed compression test. You need a new engine." I don't remember any vacuum test being mentioned at all. I don't have a copy of the compression test results, but I was shown the numbers that were written down and of course, they meant nothing to me, not knowing what figures would have been normal. But i was told they were failure numbers in one rotor, and borderline but still low on the other rotor.

I also initially thought maybe the coils or spark plugs were not put in correctly. and no, I specifically asked about a new starter as I had read about the 9V starters being retrofitted. He said they all used 12V starters and that mine was not replaced. I also wonder... you know I had mentioned how much more responsive and "zippy" it was after the initial repair, why didn't it feel like that after the 4 new plugs and wires, and flash, were put in 2 months ago with the recall? Would a new battery make that big of a difference?

About the foot tap reset... no, the oil guage didn't sweep. I tried it once before I started the car and after it died I attempted it again. I just decided to take it back to the dealer... and when I did, I asked if all the cpu's were reset, they said yes. I'm of the opinion that they take what I say with a grain of salt and that I'm a girl and what do I know.

I would certainly hope that the first thing they did after bringing it back the 2nd time was double check the previous work. I don't think these guys are complete idiots but everything you have brought up here makes sense to me. I do know there is some amount of 'moronity' going on there, as my brand new Kumho Ecsta's got marked as being in the yellow... they have about 1500 miles on them, bought the same day as my last oil change. (I was getting ready to go out of town for the holiday.) If they can half-*** one thing they can half-*** another no matter how simple or complicated, IMO. And why would they, with raised eyebrows, tell me that it drained out too much oil? It would either drain out 4 qts level, or up to like 6 1/2 if they totally drained all in the coolers, right? "...drained out 6 quarts. should only hold 5..." None of that makes sense.... My dad threw out the idea that maybe when it flooded, that some gas got into the oil. Possible? It would account for some mysterious volume and definitely wouldn't be good for the engine.

As of about an hour ago, the dealer had not heard from Mazda and were going to call them at the end of the day.

Thanks for your information, it helps a lot.

 

You know, that part bothers me, because the diagnosis of low compression (while still possibly valid) doesn't fit the symptoms. Unless we're to believe that your newly-zippy car suffered a sudden loss of compression at the stoplight. Sounds more to me like a plug or plug wire came loose or a coil/plug failure. Oh well, getting a new engine will take care of that.

Given that they put the car on a lift -- they should get fairly consistent results when draining the oil, as opposed to someone who maybe parks on unlevel ground or jacks up one side higher on one change than the previous one. That being said, it's far from proof that your crankcase was overfilled. That would have to come from a dipstick reading, not from measuring the drain from a car which after all, only allows partial oil changes. This is ironic because any post on the forum about the engine being overfilled is invariably at the hands of dealerships who seem to have a penchant for overfilling the rx-8 after oil changes

As for gas in the oil, maybe someone will correct me but, the reason why rotaries are difficult to unflood is that the combustion chamber doesn't "drain" into the crankcase. So I wouldn't think flooding would increase your oil volume too much. Some gas can make it though, since we saw a degree of fuel dilution in oil samples from the early flashes when things were running unbelievably rich. That was on the order of 1 or 2 percent though. Hard for me to imagine a quart of gas getting in there. And any drive of moderate length would vaporize a good portion of the fuel out of the oil and it would go through the breather and get combusted.

 

besides which there is no way that over filled oil could cause a bad compression reading. so the whole oil thing is a smoke screen the dealer is putting up. that oil bit is a non issue- dont let them make it one. your issue is a stumbling idle /car dieing. they say its compression that is the problem. but they can get a bad compression reading from TOO LITTLE OIL and weak battery or weak starter. thats one of the reasons the recall has them do a vacuum check with the new "black box" instead of a compression check.

find out if they did compression or a vacuum test per the recall instructions.

if it was compression get the numbers for us- they should be numbers like 7.1/7.3/7.2 at 250rpms . with numbers for front and rear rotor and comparisons between the highest and lowest chamber in each rotor and comparing the difference between front and rear.

 

sounds alot like my past problems.2004 6sp m.w/35700 miles.had a new tranny put in at 16,000 and told them i know they say it's normal but i did not think so about the throw out bearing noise a little too loud for my taste so about 20,000 miles later the bearing(i was told by dealer)blew up and took out the clutch and pressure plate.this was replaced under warrenty in which i was glad about because there had been a history with my car as far as trans problems.i don't granny drive but i do drive it like i own it!(no burn outs or drag racing at all) my dealer (browns mazda) were tops in the repairs and understanding that i keep my own records and repairs i do myself on record.they are pretty good about taking care of my problems and informs mazda corp. about other issues.had the recall done and only flooded the car one time but jumped started it and took it to the dealer who put in fresh battery,plugs and a new starter..since then no worriies and loving it!! i hope the dealer in your town takes care of your problems and good luck!!

 

Here's the latest:

Mazda authorized the full engine replacement. I can only assume that all possibilities and proper resets had been done for that to be ok'd. I asked if it were going to be a brand new engine or rebuilt... he said the only refurbished part was the rotor housing, I'm assuming the "block" of the motor, and everything else would be new.

They are also going to have a look at the clutch once they get started. May as well, everything else will be out of the way.

It will take about a week (christmas delay) for the motor to get there, then supposedly a few days after that it should be done. If all goes smoothly, I might get it back before the first of the year. But no rush, I just want it done properly.

So far I have managed to keep myself educated, keep you guys on your toes, and worry myself to death. I hope it runs great when I get it back, but if not, I will definitely know what to do!

I will update of course when I get it back, and thanks to all of you guys...

 

so it had to be a vacuum check- thats the only way they will do a replacment now. hmmm itd be nice to find the real cause of the issue....

 

Subscribing. Glad to hear your dealer is taking care of you. There are some other folks out here with rebuilds/replacements that have not been satisfied with the performance afterwards. Zoom, any suggestions as to what she can ask for to determine the performance or quality of build on her new engine when they deliver it to her?

 

I don't intend to veer off course here or hijack the thread but I just took my own 2004 GT in for excessive oil consumption after the latest recall/emissions reflash, like 1 qt. after about 900 miles and a few ocassions of high-rpm misfiring. After three years of dealing with my dealership and the fact that I have a ton of mods on my car, only now do they wish to seriously point out that putting mods on my car may cause warranty issues. So, I spent about 30 minutes giving them my entire history with my car, the nitrous system and how it rocked until the "N" flash was installed, the Magnusson-Moss Act, my involvement with this forum, and that I did all my mods myself. I also pointed out that I have never attempted to hide the fact I have modded my car nor have I tried to avoid my own responsibilities regarding said mods and the performance of the car. All of this was done in a pleasant and jovial manner and my dealer is still cool about it all but I get the feeling that things are getting serious with the '04 models. At the end of our discussion I think I was successful in imparting to the service advisor and his boss that I am not an idiot who is trying to "get over" on Mazda. I just want my car running as it is supposed to, like it did 2 years ago, so I can continue my progress with the nitrous project. BTW, I have never overfilled nor filled the oil neck too quickly resulting in the oil in the duct and soaking the air filter. The vent tube on the filler neck end is dry. It is wet with oil on the flex duct side and the exhaust smells like I spilled oil on the engine at some point. I have also never flooded my car nor had any of the transmission problems seemingly common to us(I don't suggest using RP or Red Line lubes or any other type of "clinging" lubes, either. They cause the synchros to take too long to spool up when shifting. I use B+M synthetic gear oil in the trans). The only thing I can think of that may have been wrong with Oz's car, and this has been touched upon by Abbid, would be a bad e-shaft sensor that, somehow, did not cause an MIL. Improper ignition timing from this would result in low vacuum figures but not low compression as the sensor is disconnected during comp. checks so as to disable the fuel and ignition systems.

 

Thanks again, you guys, for your interest and help here...

I am also a little nervous about the refurbished engine, as I have read posts on here about people who have had 2 or 3 replacements and still had problems. Although I have also read about some that are running better than ever since their new engine.

Also, I have not talked directly to the Mazda rep about any of this... should I just get in contact with that person? One thing that really bothers me is when I asked how the engine replacement would affect my warranty he said it wouldn't change at all... well what happens if this engine craps out? I only have 23k more miles left of the original 60k warranty, and at the rate that I drive, that will run out in one year.

Zoom... should I just march up there like I own the place and ask for the paperwork with all the test results? We are talking about a high-volume dealership, here... one of only 2 in the metro area. I would assume they would be well experienced...? Also, I would expect that Mazda would make sure that ALL possibilities were explored before giving the ok on a full replacement.

At any rate, we can all assume that I have never had to deal with anything like this before. I feel like I'm at the mercy of the dealership and all I can do is trust them to take care of it and hope for the best.

I don't know, you guys... what should I do?

 

This is getting completely ridiculous. Apologies in advance here, but I feel the need to vent.

I was told my car was ready-AGAIN-and went to pick it up, after turning in my 2nd rental, and got all my paperwork and was told the tech put 20 miles on it. I said, did you drive it personally? He said no. Ok... fine. I go outside and start it and it had a long crank and after it started, it died. Started again, it died again. At this point I am ready to decapitate someone and I wasn't even going to ATTEMPT to drive it. In fact, since it wouldn't idle and died on me twice, I didn't even take my foot off the clutch.

WHAT ARE THEY THINKING??? I'M NOT GOING TO NOTICE THAT MY CAR IS STILL F'D IN THE A?

So when I told the service advisor, he immediately went to find the tech, who had already left for the day. There was another tech there so the advisor went out to pull it into the garage. It died on him several times, he probably moved it 50 ft. So I'm talking to the tech that was left, an older guy, seemed experienced, and I asked him about the tech's experience level that has been doing the work. I was assured that he had done these several times, although immediately when he popped the hood he found a hose that wasn't routed properly or something. This tech said that the problems they are having with my car are unlike any other... the service advisor brought up the oil being over-filled again and this time he said it was 2.5 quarts and that's what my paperwork says. That is IMPOSSIBLE. I drove that car for 2 weeks after the last oil change, checked it immediately after it was done, I even looked at my air filter the weekend that this happened and there was no oil on it like I have read happens with an overfill. Where did that 2.5 quarts come from? Their imagination? Maybe the tech that is doing this ****-poor work doesn't know how much oil it holds?

I told them I have been doing extensive research on the problems with my car and trying to make sense out of it, not pretending to have knowledge of a mechanic, but still nothing makes sense. He said in cases like this, mazda will send out engineers to look at the car themselves.

They had just replaced the ENTIRE engine. How could it still have the same symptoms? By process of elimination, I have to assume that they dropped in a new engine and that wasn't even the problem to begin with. What is left, besides error? I asked about the reset again but it was just sort of blown off and was told that this was something that they have never seen before.

Is it time for me to call MNAO?

 

Wow. Which dealer is this?

 

It sounds like the dealer doesn't have much experience with the RX8 and doesn't have a qualified mechanic to diagnose the rotary properly. What is their plan to try and diagnose and fix the next problem? They should get a rotary qualified tech to go over the engine with a fine tooth comb and make sure everything is hooked up and working properly(ignition, fuel system, pcm). If they aren't going to do more than say "we'll get an engineer from japan" I would ask on your local forum what other dealer in the area may have more experience with rotaries and has handled an engine swap successfully. I would have it towed (at their expense) to the new dealer and get them to give it a shot.

 

Unfortunately, there just are not many reputable dealers in the immediate area.

 

That would mean towing it either to Tulsa or the Dallas area... I just don't think they would go for that. But, the fact is, they gutted my car apparently for no reason. And as nice as they have been to me, I feel like I'm going to have to take this to another level to be sure things are going to get done properly. If that means taking it somewhere else, then I will, but I'm sure it will not be a simple task to convince them to agree.

I will be talking to someone from Mazda, I'll just have to wait until Tuesday. This would all have to happen during the holidays. This just sucks. Do I just call the customer service number from the mazda website? Or can someone pm me a number to call?

 

This is what is so mysterious to me, in a nutshell: Before I took it in, it smoked and spewed and coughed and would hardly idle, if cold. After it warmed up, it ran fine, no CEL or anything.

After the coils, plugs and battery were replaced (which totally made sense from what happened, assuming I had flooded it) it not only had the same symptoms as before, but now worse, and add in a rough idle and CEL (probably misfires) while driving.

Then the new engine is put in and still the same symptoms, although I don't know about the CEL while driving. Once the guy got it started it was still smoking, too. How could this be?????????

Swoopes, I think it was, mentioned maybe the fuel pump. That is something that would not have been touched, I'm assuming... so would that cause this type of problem? Maybe something about the way it stalled out caused it to go screwy? How many people have had a fuel pump go bad and would recognize the symptoms? I know I know do a search! If it were that, I would think it would just die. And stay dead. I'll search.

The two things that make the most sense to me are 1)something is still not right about the coils/plugs, aka technician error, or 2) the timing is off or something, computers still need to be reset.

 

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/contactMazda.action

beers

 

I'm not as experienced as some here but I know you need 2 things to make the engine turn: fuel and fire (now really 3 with the PCM). If the ignition has been replaced then the fuel system and computer are the only other things. Your PCM may be malfunctioning or as you hypothesized your fuel pump or other part of the fuel system may be faulty. They should be able to test these things independently. I'd ask them if they are going to check those two systems and and to give you details on the tests and results. If they don't give you any concrete plan you should start pushing them to either fix your car or find someone who can.

 

Yes, I agree. My gut says it's the pcm although, as I keep saying, I have no knowledge besides what I've read. I think either the tech didn't do the compression test right, or like Zoom suggested, if the pcm is malfunctioning or needs to be reset, can you really get an accurate compression reading? Also, I asked them if they checked the cat. The tech said yes. But after doing some reading on here last night, if they didn't actually take off the cat and look at it, it could still be plugged up. What other way would they have checked it?

Regarding the fuel pump... I will say that I lost about 60 miles off the tank of gas after this happened. It had under a 1/4 tank when i dropped it off and I only had 185 miles on it so far. I routinely get 265/tank, and I don't think it was entirely from idling more than usual. Is it possible that it's pumping too much fuel to the engine, therefore flooding it pretty much every time it's started? Again I would think that would be a computer issue, though. But that is how it acts, every time it's started from cold... like it's flooded.

If it turns out to be something trivial that they didn't check thoroughly and just raped my car for no reason, I am going to be severely upset. Isn't there a saying.... Hell hath no fury like a woman with a scorned RX-8?

 

During a compression check the PCM is removed from the loop by disconnecting the e-shaft sensor. This disables both the ignition and fuel injection systems. The biggest concern when doing comp. checks is that the engine is warmed up for at least 10 minutes, although I would go longer than that myself. I am sure my tech did my comp. check improperly. I have had my car in twice in the last two weeks and the first time they told me my cat was good, the next they said it was bad. My cat has no more than 13,000 miles on it as it has spent most of the time in my shed. BTW, I pulled and reset my codes and no light yet after two days of driving. I guess they can mess up the cat performance evaluation just as much as anything else. Hell hath no fury like a scorned woman with an RX-8, as she is probably already a hot rod herself!!