Doesn't seem to get gas and dies at stops
#1
Doesn't seem to get gas and dies at stops
Ok so I've search the forums lots and learned a lot but still having problems with my car. 04 with about 60,000 miles. Took it to mazda they said I needed new plugs, wires, coils and a cat. Changed all of them. The car still does the exact same thing. After driving it for about 15-20 mins when its good an warmed up, it doesnt want to accelerate. Floor it and it goes nowhere. Stuttering. Almost like its not getting gas. If I push the gas pedal to the floor and get it to shift thru the gears it seems to take off a bit and be ok. Then when I get to a stop light it idles rough, the RPMs drop and then sometimes dies. It starts back up again just very hard, have to crank it about 3 times. I'm taking it back to mazda and have them look at it again. It has a warranty that should cover anything but tune up type stuff and exhaust. Just really kind of frustrated with mazda for telling me to change the plugs, wires, coils and cat (which it probably needed anyway) and it still does the same thing. Does this sound like an engine issue? My old mechanic (who is not a mazda mechanic) was totally scratching his head on this one. He said he had no idea.
#2
Best bet: Cascading failures from your ignition not being replaced on time has clogged your cat. Often does not throw a CEL, which is all the dealer will look for. Glowing cat and/or looking inside to see a cat element gone is often required.
Ignition needs replacing about every 30,000 miles on average, sometimes sooner, sometimes later. 60k is waving a red flag at a bull from 1 foot away.
From my new owners thread:
Ignition needs replacing about every 30,000 miles on average, sometimes sooner, sometimes later. 60k is waving a red flag at a bull from 1 foot away.
From my new owners thread:
Importance of Ignition Health:
************************ READ THIS!!!! ************************
One of the most often overlooked or ignored parts of RX-8 ownership is the health of the ignition system. This includes the ignition coils, spark plug wires, and spark plugs. They fail. Often. So often as to be critical parts of regular maintenance.
Before I detail why, check out the first post of this thread here: The impact of old coils, wires, & plugs - RX8Club.com (owner's post here: [FEELER] Spring 2012 MM Tuning / Dyno Day @ Speed1 Allentown (formerly KDRotary) - Page 8 - RX8Club.com)
The owner's power dropped from 199whp to 172whp JUST from failing ignition. That's a 13.5% power loss!
Do I have your attention now? Good.
Mazda officially lists the plug wires and plugs as part of regular maintenance, but not the coils. Many dealers STILL don't know how easily the coils can fail. And they fail about the same time as the wires and plugs, which is about every 30,000 miles. Some can last longer, some shorter, and it's more related to your total RPMs than it is to your mileage. Highway cruising is easier on the coils than spending a day pounding around a race track.
When coils fail, they don't suddenly shut off. They start producing weaker pulses scattered among strong ones. The rate of weak pulses slowly increases and pulses start getting dropped entirely, which is where misfires start. All of this means that you aren't burning all the fuel and aren't using all the air that the engine pulled in for that combustion, and it unburnt fuel and air gets dumped into the exhaust, where it happily ignites with the presence of plenty of heat. This saturates the cat in both fuel and heat, and will rapidly kill the cat (A $1,300 USD replacement). Continuing to drive on a failing cat will add other problems such as engine damage and vehicle fires. I am not exaggerating, this can happen with just a single cat failure!
Plug fouling and wire failure is largely the same result, since all 3 pieces are needed for a complete spark. Foul the plug and it doesn't matter if the coil and wire are good. Break down the wire and it doesn't matter if the coil and plug are good.
Symptoms of ignition failure include: Power Loss, mileage drop, unstable idle, bad idle, inability to idle, shaking at idle, unstable high rpm, misfiring, flashing CEL, coughing engine, glowing cat, flooding, inability to start, inability to pass an emissions sniffer test, and just about anything you can think of where a weak or missing spark causes problems.
And if one fails, it will cascade to the other trio on the same rotor. A plug that can't fire will start fouling the other. A coil that can't fire a plug starts wearing out rapidly (if you want to test this, just unplug a wire from a plug and run the engine for a while. The coil will rapidly fail. Not unique to rotary engines)
Why do coils fail so easily?
This is largely because Mazda opted for cheap coils because of RX-7 owner complaints about how expensive their coils were. The RX-7 coils lasted much longer though. So Mazda went cheap, and so we have to replace regularly. And you can't compare to piston engine coils. A piston engine with the same setup of 1 coil for 1 plug has an average RPM of about 2,500rpm and the coil is firing every other revolution, so the coil is firing about 1,250 pulses per minute. Our rotary has an average RPM of more like 4,000rpm, and each coil fires every revolution, so about 4,000 pulses per minute. That's a bit over 3 times more. Even a piston max RPM of about 6,000rpm vs our 9,000rpm makes the difference 3,000 pulses per minute vs 9,000 pulses per minute, or 3 times as fast.
If our coils would last about 3 times longer, you are talking an average of 90,000 miles.
So keep your ignition healthy!
************************ READ THIS!!!! ************************
One of the most often overlooked or ignored parts of RX-8 ownership is the health of the ignition system. This includes the ignition coils, spark plug wires, and spark plugs. They fail. Often. So often as to be critical parts of regular maintenance.
Before I detail why, check out the first post of this thread here: The impact of old coils, wires, & plugs - RX8Club.com (owner's post here: [FEELER] Spring 2012 MM Tuning / Dyno Day @ Speed1 Allentown (formerly KDRotary) - Page 8 - RX8Club.com)
The owner's power dropped from 199whp to 172whp JUST from failing ignition. That's a 13.5% power loss!
Do I have your attention now? Good.
Mazda officially lists the plug wires and plugs as part of regular maintenance, but not the coils. Many dealers STILL don't know how easily the coils can fail. And they fail about the same time as the wires and plugs, which is about every 30,000 miles. Some can last longer, some shorter, and it's more related to your total RPMs than it is to your mileage. Highway cruising is easier on the coils than spending a day pounding around a race track.
When coils fail, they don't suddenly shut off. They start producing weaker pulses scattered among strong ones. The rate of weak pulses slowly increases and pulses start getting dropped entirely, which is where misfires start. All of this means that you aren't burning all the fuel and aren't using all the air that the engine pulled in for that combustion, and it unburnt fuel and air gets dumped into the exhaust, where it happily ignites with the presence of plenty of heat. This saturates the cat in both fuel and heat, and will rapidly kill the cat (A $1,300 USD replacement). Continuing to drive on a failing cat will add other problems such as engine damage and vehicle fires. I am not exaggerating, this can happen with just a single cat failure!
Plug fouling and wire failure is largely the same result, since all 3 pieces are needed for a complete spark. Foul the plug and it doesn't matter if the coil and wire are good. Break down the wire and it doesn't matter if the coil and plug are good.
Symptoms of ignition failure include: Power Loss, mileage drop, unstable idle, bad idle, inability to idle, shaking at idle, unstable high rpm, misfiring, flashing CEL, coughing engine, glowing cat, flooding, inability to start, inability to pass an emissions sniffer test, and just about anything you can think of where a weak or missing spark causes problems.
And if one fails, it will cascade to the other trio on the same rotor. A plug that can't fire will start fouling the other. A coil that can't fire a plug starts wearing out rapidly (if you want to test this, just unplug a wire from a plug and run the engine for a while. The coil will rapidly fail. Not unique to rotary engines)
Why do coils fail so easily?
This is largely because Mazda opted for cheap coils because of RX-7 owner complaints about how expensive their coils were. The RX-7 coils lasted much longer though. So Mazda went cheap, and so we have to replace regularly. And you can't compare to piston engine coils. A piston engine with the same setup of 1 coil for 1 plug has an average RPM of about 2,500rpm and the coil is firing every other revolution, so the coil is firing about 1,250 pulses per minute. Our rotary has an average RPM of more like 4,000rpm, and each coil fires every revolution, so about 4,000 pulses per minute. That's a bit over 3 times more. Even a piston max RPM of about 6,000rpm vs our 9,000rpm makes the difference 3,000 pulses per minute vs 9,000 pulses per minute, or 3 times as fast.
If our coils would last about 3 times longer, you are talking an average of 90,000 miles.
So keep your ignition healthy!
#3
Thank you for your reply. I have already replaced the cat. I had previously read that post and thought bingo! this is exactly whats wrong with my car! I had the wires, plugs, coils and cat replaced. It was a very informative and helpful post. But no dice still does the same thing. Hopefully Mazda wont be a bunch of jackwagons and fix whatever is wrong with it. AND hopefully its covered under my warranty. :-)
#6
Well, the remaining options that could cause that behavior are O2 sensor failure, MAF dirty or fouled, E-shaft sensor fouled, fuel pump failing, and fuel filter clogged.
It's not intake valving, as that is only high RPM and wouldn't affect the idle/starting. It's not intake changes since this apparently started 'on it's own'. A vacuum leak could cause some of those idle problems, but certainly not severe power loss and studdering.
If it's not ignition and it's not the cat, then I'd take a peek at the e-shaft sensor. It's just a magnet that sits next to the main pulley, and can pick up road debris on it that gets stuck and messes with the sensor signals. Or a belt is fraying and hitting the sensor, which belts have metal in them and would disrupt the signal. Cleaning it is free and quick, just in case it's the issue.
It's not intake valving, as that is only high RPM and wouldn't affect the idle/starting. It's not intake changes since this apparently started 'on it's own'. A vacuum leak could cause some of those idle problems, but certainly not severe power loss and studdering.
If it's not ignition and it's not the cat, then I'd take a peek at the e-shaft sensor. It's just a magnet that sits next to the main pulley, and can pick up road debris on it that gets stuck and messes with the sensor signals. Or a belt is fraying and hitting the sensor, which belts have metal in them and would disrupt the signal. Cleaning it is free and quick, just in case it's the issue.
#7
I had similar issues and it turned out to be my fuel sender unit. I had decatted,New leads coils n plugs new fuel pump,got a newer pcm flash and starter. Could have saved a heap if I'd don't the sender unit first :-(
Listen to RIWWP, he knows his ****
Listen to RIWWP, he knows his ****
#8
Thanks for everyones posts. Just wanted to give an update. It went back into the shop, they had it for a week finally told me it was the throttle body. Ok fine. Replaced. Picked the car up and drove it about 3 blocks. Exact same issues. Turned around and as I was driving it back it idled shitty and died at the light. It seemed like it wanted to idle right but just couldnt. The rpms would kick up to normal and idle normally and then back down to 500 and die. Back at Mazda the service manager pretty much said his mechanic had been in the car 4 times test driving it and rode with him once and it was fine. Just leave it with them and he'd figure it out. Also wants to know what kind of gas I use. 91 octane like I'm suppose to. He says that its bad bc it has a blend of ethenol in it and i shouldnt use it. Um...ok? I live in Iowa, everything has ethenol in it. No gas station within 25 of Des Moines has 91 without ethenol. So not sure about that. Today he calls me back and says I have bad motor mounts and a bad control arm bushing. The bad motor mounts would cause it idle badly, but would they cause it to die? I dont have a lot of faith its going to be fixed. All of the parts i've had changed and not one has made one bit of difference. Oh and he told me and I quote, "You know the RX8s arent really known for their power." Oh really?? well the car use to be pretty damn zippy. Its no 0 to 60 in 3 seconds car but she really moves...well she use to. Highly frustrated.
#10
Where at in Iowa? Are you the silver that has been at ramsey? If you know what im talking about all i can say is there is no place in the area id trust with my 8, ramsey is a good dealership, and in fact, has one of the best porche mechanics arround oddly enuf, but youll notice there is less than a dozen 8s youl ever see on the road, its a do it yourself town. Im no rotor pro but will be willing to take a look and listen if your in my area just to give some other input... also as stated listen to riwwp, he does know his ****.
#11
I need to make my troubleshooting thread...
At the top I need to have in big red bold letters: "If a dealer tells you that it's your throttle body, then take your car back. They have no idea what they are talking about and replacing your throttle body isn't going to fix your problem".
It's so common of a go-to for dealers, and not once in 5 years have I heard of it actually being the problem. Every time it's ALWAYS a sensor failure. Either outright failure or just dirty-and-needs-to-be-cleaned failure. Usually just dirty.
At the top I need to have in big red bold letters: "If a dealer tells you that it's your throttle body, then take your car back. They have no idea what they are talking about and replacing your throttle body isn't going to fix your problem".
It's so common of a go-to for dealers, and not once in 5 years have I heard of it actually being the problem. Every time it's ALWAYS a sensor failure. Either outright failure or just dirty-and-needs-to-be-cleaned failure. Usually just dirty.
#12
Thank you RIWWP throughly reading all of your threads...so hopefully I wont ask anymore stupid questions. Great information. :-)
Cornbred yeah thats my silver RX8. I really appreciate the offer, thank you very much. :-)
So picked it last night. Seems to be running great! Idle is constant, no vibration, has power...drives like it did when I bought it. I asked them about the MAF and ESS...they said it was one of the first things they checked. So I dunno really what the issue actually was. Whatever it was...it seems to be fixed. I kinda feel like they might have done the throttle body and then after i took it back they cleaned the sensors...? I really have no idea...all I know is its running great now. I discovered this morning I no longer have heat tho...lol go figure just my luck.
I will say the dealership was pretty nice to me tho at least, gave me a loaner for free. I have a sneaking suspicion they might have thought I was just some nutty girl tho.
This whole situation has taught me a lot about my car. Love it and care for it like its your first born child. Next weekend oil change, new brakes, and...new floor mats, center cap and tail light gasket should be arriving in the mail any day...the week after...new tires. Good thing I love this car.
Cornbred yeah thats my silver RX8. I really appreciate the offer, thank you very much. :-)
So picked it last night. Seems to be running great! Idle is constant, no vibration, has power...drives like it did when I bought it. I asked them about the MAF and ESS...they said it was one of the first things they checked. So I dunno really what the issue actually was. Whatever it was...it seems to be fixed. I kinda feel like they might have done the throttle body and then after i took it back they cleaned the sensors...? I really have no idea...all I know is its running great now. I discovered this morning I no longer have heat tho...lol go figure just my luck.
I will say the dealership was pretty nice to me tho at least, gave me a loaner for free. I have a sneaking suspicion they might have thought I was just some nutty girl tho.
This whole situation has taught me a lot about my car. Love it and care for it like its your first born child. Next weekend oil change, new brakes, and...new floor mats, center cap and tail light gasket should be arriving in the mail any day...the week after...new tires. Good thing I love this car.
#15
Sooooo...I thought it was running great. It seemed at first to be as good as new. Drove it around town did some erands, took it out on the interstate...noticed it was a little slow to respond again. Got of the interstate, idled a little iffy (not as bad as it did), and then I hear some sort of weird noise under the hood. It sounds like something is loose or hitting something, kinda a knocking sound in the engine. Way past frustrated with this whole thing. So back to the dealership I go.
#17
engine mount can cause vibration in the car, it does not effect the engine's power.
throttle body can fail, mine did, and it was replaced under warranty. its extremely rare but it could happen.
sounds like your engine is going south, they should do vacuum test on it.
its sad that people who supposed to know the car inside out cant even trouble shoot some simple case like this. i guess this is the differnce between this is just a job and passion
throttle body can fail, mine did, and it was replaced under warranty. its extremely rare but it could happen.
sounds like your engine is going south, they should do vacuum test on it.
its sad that people who supposed to know the car inside out cant even trouble shoot some simple case like this. i guess this is the differnce between this is just a job and passion
Last edited by nycgps; 10-10-2012 at 03:08 PM.
#18
I really cant blame the dealer on this one, we live in an area where there is only half a dozen 8s on the road, they just dont get the experience, fun/cool cars are kind of rare arround here. I cant even get the basic stuff, everything i need from fluids to basic parts all has to be ordered, and its not cheap if you do find something.
#19
Current update from the dealership. Needs a new engine, bad compression due to worn apex seals. My warranty company as of right now is refusing to pay for a new engine bc the dealership wont take apart the whole engine and show them the part that failed. Awesome. If I didnt have bad luck I wouldnt have any luck at all.
#23
She has an 04 .. warranty would be up wouldn't it, im thinking when she said warranty company she is using a 3rd party maintenance insurer? They can and will demand to see the part. Its BS without a doubt... the salvage yard comment was actually in half jest, as Mazda isn't going to pull a rotor for free hoping that someone will eventually pay up but "cheating" wont necessarily work in someone's favor
#24
I agree with all of that. I'm saying that yes, the 3rd party warranty company is going to try to deny a claim, but she has every legal right to coverage and shouldn't roll over on it. She is going to have to fight them, but it's winnable without Mazda dissembling the engine.
Even so, Mazda can just bill them for the disassembly and inspection.
This thread shows that Mazda is willing to do that: https://www.rx8club.com/trouble-shoo...-mazda-238218/
Even so, Mazda can just bill them for the disassembly and inspection.
This thread shows that Mazda is willing to do that: https://www.rx8club.com/trouble-shoo...-mazda-238218/
#25
i remember reading that before, on a roof so didnt go thru it all again was about a mazda shiped reman if im correct... regardless i think the real issue hwre is not whats wrong but something is wrong... if by mazda standards a failed compression tests says motor is bad then the dealership printout of the compression should be enough backed up by the 8 year extended to prove manufacturer says that is something to be replaced... thats the way id go at it, but i scream alot and threten too .. being an angry person has its advantages sometime