9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Repost from my third engine thread but I want opinions.

Okay guys, a friend/customer of mine works for Schaeffer oil. I met him through a referral and we have talked oil a little before about oil stuff but never about premixing specifically and I never knew that back in the 80's he autox'd a turbo FC. Well, let me tell you, he can talk to you all day about lubricants of various type (sounds bad I know).

Anyway, I had along discussion with him (of which most was above my head) about premixing and rotaries and and to make a long story short he told me that Mobile 1 and other commonly used synthetics "rupture" which causes metal to metal contact for a millisecond and he said this metal to metal contact is what damages the apex seals. He highly recommends (keep your comments to yourself NYCGPS) using synthetic and premixing in a rotary engine (says normal Dino oil is great for other applications and usually synthetic is not needed). Of course he works for the company so take it with a grain of salt but he says he has two products that would protect a rotary better than other commonly used retail brands. He says they sell mostly to large high use commercial buyers such as Good Year (they use their oils in their tire test vehicles).

Anyway, here are the two products he recommended that I use (tell me what you think):

Synthetic 5W-30
http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/9003.pdf

Synthetic 2-Stroke
http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/706.pdf

ASH8

ALL good 2 stroke's as a Pre-Mix are naturally used for lubrication....

As far as Marvelous Mystery Oil is concerned (Great Marketing Hype for a name), I wonder what the "Mystery" is about, but yes it is an Oil again.

Just like Olive oil or Castor oil is an Oil, as we know Castor Oil is not recommended at all in rotaries as it builds Carbon. Quite good as a lubricant and is used in some upper cylinder oils.

As far as "Cleaners" are concerned I have yet to see any Rotor from any pulled down rotary engine that is free from some carbon build up, maybe unless you water clean your engine like RG does.
Just like I have never seen a Piston Top that has not got some form of Carbon Build up on it, and or exhaust Valves and Stems.

9krpmrx8, I am unfamiliar with the brand you are talking about.
I suggest you look at specification Data that other oils list on their brand website and compare them.

I guess just looking at the PDF they appear OK, but really there is so much to choose from, why not stick with recognised brands..there is no REAL Discovery or Breakthrough that will give your engine any advantage.

"Better Protection" again marketing hype, Look, how often do you change your oil, every 3000 Miles when it is recommended at 6000? or whatever, most of us change our oil at 3000, so IMO why spend $$'s on something that is "questionable" with their claims when you are going to dump it early anyway.

I would stick to a well known brand of good quality engine oil..that is it.
Same with Pre-Mix..

Like "nycgps" I would use a higher grade oil than 5w30, particularly in Texas, I use 15W40.
And a 5W30 for Winter, my winter has no snow..

Hope it helps..
Ash

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Thanks now let me get your opinion on another thing that is meant for piston engines. I am currently reading about the renny's oiling system now and I only looked at this product briefly but since most engine wear occurs at start-up, I wonder if anyone has done any type of prelube system on a rotary.

http://www.autoenginelube.com/howitworks.html

Here is a basic example of how a Rotary engine's lubrication system works.

http://www.rotaryengineillustrated.c...-system-4.html

ASH8

Well really, the only "Bearings" you have are two ..one in each rotor, and stationary gear bearings that all spin on your eccentric shaft bearings or journals, I had a quick look at link, but I have no experience on this device and really I would not throw my money at it....not for a rotary anyway.

IMO a higher grade oil will project your bearings, again IMO the 5W20 oils used in the US were a contributor to the excessively worn rotor bearings seen when engines were dismantled.
I never like that grade then 4 years ago and still don't.

RG may offer better advice on this "device"..

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Yeah, he is MIA though.

ASH8

AWOL...lol..

PM him...he might just reply..

Spirograph

If MMO is an oil, will it be too much oil in the gas to use 4oz Idemitsu and 2oz MMO per fillup? Also, I'm sold on the "idea" behind FP Plus - that the chemical in it breaks carbon down into graphite, but is there any proof that FP Plus has enough of the chemical to do so, and that it works as conceived in a combustion chamber - have any independent tests been done to prove that it works as marketed?

robrecht

No tests. AFAIK, FP Plus is not marketed for rotaries and I've never seen them mention cyclohexanone in their materials. That insight was based on oil geek discussions over at BITOG and popularized here by Jax (of happy memory). Makes sense, seems to work well, but nobody knows for sure until they tear down their engine.

map

No, it'd be fine, but if you're mixing with Idemitsu you will prob be better off with 2oz of FP+ since that is purely a cleaning additive and Idemitsu is providing lube.

All of these products are sound, but no one has x-ray specs to see into their engine. Just read and try stuff that seems reasonable to figure out what works best for you. You won't hurt anything (unless you do something really stupid like dump in a gallon).

RX-8.40

This is the Premix I found at the local motorcycle shop, but I want to check with everyone here before I try it. Can you all advise me? LOL....Thanks!

Here is a link to the Honda HP2 Performance 2 stroke (100% Synthetic) PreMix

http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/pr...&stockId=99098

What does everyone think about this premix? It is convenient for me to use this, but I will special order something else if anyone see's any problem with this one.

Thanks in advance!

Spirograph

Yeah, I guess I need to read more about the theory of how FP Plus works. If it really, honestly does a significant job of converting carbon into graphite, then it sounds like it may be great. However, if the conversion of carbon into graphite is minimal, and the main action is just dissolving carbon, then I think I might prefer to run Idemitsu with MMO for a couple of reasons. First, I don't know how graphite acts in a combustion chamber (yes, a firearm has combustion, but you're completely taking the chamber apart for a thorough cleaning and lube every few hundred shots). I know how it works in dry lube for locks and guns, but I don't know how it mixes with oil and gas in a combustion chamber and what the resulting reactions lubricate/clean and/or leave behind. Second, I don't know how the above example reacts with the inclusion of the molybdenum of Idemitsu. Third, I've read in several threads here that you should NOT add premix in the same fill up as a strong cleanser in the gas tank, like seafoam, BG44K etc. So, it stands to reason in my newbie mind, that it would make more sense to not (on a smaller but constant basis) mix the strong lube of Idemitsu with the strong cleanser of FP Plus. Without direct evidence that FP Plus does significant carbon-to-graphite conversion, it seems safer to instead stick to mixing a strong Idemitsu lube with a thin viscosity lubricious cleanser like MMO which is proven to immediately mix with gas and not leave behind any residue to foul/plug the fuel filter sock or stick to the rotors/housings. I'm thinking that it can't hurt to have the extra lubrication of both Idemitsu and MMO for the apex seals, while relying on the MMO to keep carbon from daily buildup along with daily redlining, good fuel, and regular seafoam decarbs.

On that note, would it be safe to run 4 oz. Idemitsu w/ 4 oz. MMO, or would 3 oz. of each be a better mix? 3 of each seems like a good, safe, reliable mix to me. I also plan on setting a schedule for cleaning the fuel filter sock, or replacing the fuel filter (how often, I haven't yet decided). Either way, I think I've sold myself on a 50/50 blend of Idemitsu premix with MMO, at least for the next 6 months or until I'm convinced otherwise.

robrecht

I doubt you'll ever find the type of data you're looking for, either in support of FP Plus or to the contrary. I'm not at all opposed to MMO. There's years of good experience with it in rotaries, which is a kind of data, and it is the easiest and cheapest way of adding both lubricating and cleaning agents in a single, easily accessible product locally to most people. But where I think you're making some unwarrented assumptions is in classifying FP Plus together with more aggressive solvent cleaners like BG44k, Seafom, etc. It is more in the same class as MMO. In fact, those who know a lot more about it than me, classify it higher than MMO as a lubricious cleaner/UCL. See, eg, Jax's classification here:
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=968

If you want to discuss this with more informed people, I'd recommend BITOG, where you can find some older discussions of cyclohexanone and create new ones. You can also talk with LCD to see if they have some information that might interest you, but until a few weeks ago I'm not sure they were really aware of the use of their product specifically in rotary engines. So they can tell you more about the use of their product in ICEs in general and cat safety, etc.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

if you are just going to dump it. i would do it into a full tank.

and i find 6 to 8 oz is the trick for the street..

beers

Flashwing

In regards to MMO, you might just save yourself the trouble and just pour 30 wt oil into your tank.

https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...&highlight=oil

always.anthony

cool, now i have to find another premix. MMO was cheap, easy to get, lubed and prevented carbon buildup.

good substitute?

(availible in stores and cheap)

swoope

iTrader: (5)

lots of knowledge out there on the mmo story..

the link above to the aviation site is just an opinion by a guy that flys a plane. nothing more.. i think that thread was intended more as a joke..

the problem is that you have to read this whole thread to gather it up..

beers

Bigbacon

iTrader: (4)

so, what is the best premix option that one can buy, say, at autozone or advance auto parts?

Spirograph

So today was my first day w/ Idemitsu. I switched from 8 oz. MMO to 4 oz. MMO and 4 oz. Idemitsu. Here's three things I noticed, and yes, it's all subjective speculation:

1. The car seems to have a bit more power to it when taking off from a red light. I think I had the revs higher than usual, which normally would lead to a very jerky takeoff in 1st, but it just took right off without any jump.

2. Similar to 1, but dealing with downshifting. When I downshifted previously it would inevitably get a hard jump every time, even if I tried to blip the accelerator. Now it seems to not jump at all, but just smoothly downshifts with nice immediate power. Is this even possible that premix could affect shifting performance in any way at all? Also, I didn't pay attention today, but with every shift my transmission seems to always have a double-click, like I shift into gear and it has resistance, then a fraction of a second later it clicks again as it actually engages. I haven't driven a stick in years, but I don't remember my other cars shifting like that.

3. I seem to have lost power when accelerating in 6th. Going from 80 to 90 to pass, WOT starting at 4K RPM when at 80, and it seemed to take an awful long time for a 238 hp car at 4k RPM. It's possible that I've been in 5th most of the time when accelerating at these speeds, I don't know. I put the premix in before filling up, but I find it hard to believe that 4 oz of Idemitsu added for the first time would be clogging the fuel filter that bad. I plan on cleaning the fuel pump sock sometime in the next couple of weeks.

robrecht

Your minor change in premix regimen was not related to your other observations.

Spirograph

That's what I figured, thanks.

Nopstnz8

iTrader: (6)

Thanks. I do. Once I have a quarter tank remaining, I first dump in the 4 ounces, now I will try 6, and then just fill the tank fully up. Is this correct? I haven't had any problems yet with 4 ounces on my first attempt.

robrecht

No, he meant adding premix to the full tank after you've filled it. Personally, I don't really think even this is necessary if you're using a good premix, but I've done it if I fill up without any premix with me and and then have to go back home before I can add premix. It also helps if you don't constantly run the tank dry.

SpIcEz

Running the tank till the light comes on is far from running the tank dry.

Still a good 10 liters in there. I wouldn't be worried at all if you fill up as soon as the light comes on.

robrecht

But I wasn't talking about that. At least one of the guys here who has had fuel pump/sock problems admits to frequently running his tank to empty, and by that I mean empty, as in below E, long past when the light goes on. That's not good for the pump or the sock.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

very good advice indeed!

and i still continue to premix the premix! but boy did i try lots of stuff years ago..

beers