robrecht

If anyone is interested in buying a case of Idemitsu premix at a good price, let us know in this group buy interest thread:
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discussion-3/interest-group-buy-idemitsu-premix-good-discount-189089/

Idemitsu premix was developed especially for rotary engines. Read more about it here:
http://www.idemitsu-usa.com/page_210.htm

gundarx

^ +1.. good discount

Rote8

Call Cam.
And no, that doesn't look right.
My bottles do not look that way.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

since i still have a good omp and my car uses oil in a decent way I am sticking with mmo for dd.
mmo is classified as a 5W viscosity oil (mainly kerosene with bezene added) and it cleans very well. No injector deposits etc. I thought it was basically atf with added benzene for a long time until i discovered otherwise. I use 1/2oz per gallon and my omp is working for dd.
Now for a track w/e i use a different pre mix at 1 oz per gallon and of course the omp works! I use 1-2 quarts of oil for about 250 miles just through the omp and i use about 2 tanks of gas for that 250 miles with 1 oz premix per gallon. I think thats enough! No sparkplug fouling present.
if this doesnt take care of the apex/side seals then imho its hopeless.
OD

Spirograph

OD, are you using custom flashed PCM settings? Why is your OMP 4-8x thirstier than average?

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

have Pettit flash---- but many Ga rx8's use the same amount of oil on our track w/e's
OD

Faria

i have an o4 Rx8 MT...59k MIles. i was wondering if i should start premixing...

if so how do i go about doing that? just drop in some 2cycle Oil into Gas tank after fill up?

or do i have to Remove OMP? or Im not exactly sure..

Any advice would be greatly appreciated...

jmc23200

Read the last 81 pages and make an educated decision












Or dump 8oz MMO in to the tank at fillup. Two Cycle oil is a no no unless you read the last 81 pages and know what to look for

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

You should read but it is daunting.

1. TC3W 2 stroke has been know effect the cat but other than that you will have to look at product data sheets for the particular 2 stroke oil in order to really say one is better than another.
2. Don't trust anything you read here without proper research, many talk out of their asses with no factual data and use products just because someone else does and their engine has not blown up because of it.
3. If you want simplicity use Idemitsu as premix.
4. Yes you just add it before you fill-up (or research other methods)1/2oz per gallon is a safe ratio.
5. No you don't remove the OMP to premix, you need to gain a better understanding of your motor. I suggest you start reading.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Yes. My problem with MMO is that there is no hard data that I can find that details as to what is in it? Some say its a solvent and some say lubricant and those who say are just guessing as far as I can say.

jmc23200

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION I - Material Identity
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Item Name
Part Number/Trade Name MARVEL MYSTERY OIL/LUBRICATING OIL
National Stock Number 9150011264459
CAGE Code 95015
Part Number Indicator A
MSDS Number 194363
HAZ Code B


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION II - Manufacturer's Information
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manufacturer Name THE MARVEL OIL COMPANY, INC
Street 5655 W 73RD STREET
City CHICAGO
State IL
Country US
Zip Code 60638
Emergency Phone 708-563-3766
Information Phone 708-563-3766

MSDS Preparer's Information
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date MSDS Prepared/Revised 13FEB01
Active Indicator Y

Alternate Vendors
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION III - Physical/Chemical Characteristics
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Appearance/Odor CLEAR AMBER LIQUID
Boiling Point 341.6 F
Melting Point N/A
Vapor Pressure 5
Vapor Density N/D
Specific Gravity 0.876
Evaporation Rate N/P
Solubility in Water INSOLUBLE
Percent Volatiles by Volume 25
Chemical pH N/D
Corrosion Rate N/P
Container Pressure Code 1
Temperature Code 4
Product State Code L


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION IV - Fire and Explosion Hazard Data
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flash Point Method UNK


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION V - Reactivity Data
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stability YES
Stability Conditions to Avoid NONE KNOWN
Materials to Avoid STRONG OXIDIZING AGENTS
Hazardous Decomposition Products CARBON MONOXIDE, CARBON DIOXIDE AND HYDROCARBONS
Hazardous Polymerization NO
Polymerization Conditions to Avoid WILL NOT OCCUR


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION VI - Health Hazard Data
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Route of Entry: Skin YES
Route of Entry: Inhalation YES
Health Hazards - Acute and Chronic [INGEST] CAN CAUSE GASTRIONTESTINAL IRRITATION, NAUSEA, VO ITING, AND DIARRHEA. ASPIRATION INTO LUNGS CAN CAUSE PNEUMONITIS WHICH CAN BE FATAL.[SKIN] IRRITATION. DEFATTING OR DERMATITIS [INHALE] NASAL AND RESPIRATORY IRRITATION, DIZZINESS, WEAKENSS, FATIGUE, NAUSEA, HEADACHE, POSSIBEL UNCONSCIOUSNESS AND EVEN ASPHYXIATION [EYE] IRRITATION, REDNESS, TEARING OR BLURRED VISION
Carcinogenity: NTP NO
Carcinogenity: IARC NO
Carcinogenity: OSHA NO
Symptoms of Overexposure SEE ABOVE
Medical Cond. Aggrevated by Exposure N/P
Emergency/First Aid Procedures [INGEST] DO NOT INDUCE VOMITING GET MED. ATTN. ASPIRATON OF MATERIAL INTO LUNGS CAN CAUSE CHEMICAL PNEUMONITIS WHICH CAN BE FATAL[SKIN]WASH EXPOSED AREA WITH SOAP AND WATER REMOVE CONTAMINATED CLOTHING LAUNDER BEFORE REUSE[INHALE] MOVE TO FRESH AIR. IF BREATHING DIFFICULT, ADMINISTER OXYGEN IS BREATHING HAS STOPPED, GIVE ARTIFICIAL RESPIRATION, KEEP PERSON WARM. [EYES] FLUSH WITH WATER FOR 15 MIN. LIFTING EYELIDS GET MED. ATTN


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION VII - Precautions for Safe Handling and Use
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steps if Material Released/Spilled VENTILATE AREA, REMOVE SOURCES OF IGNITION, PREVENT ENTRY INTO SEWERS AND WATERWAYS. PICK UP FREE LIQUID FOR RECYCLE AND/OR DISPOSAL. ABOSRB SMALL AMTS. ON INERT MATERIAL FOR DISPOSAL
Waste Disposal Method IN ACCORDANCE WITH STATE, LOCAL, AND FEDERAL REGULATIONS
Handling and Storage Precautions NONE LISTED
Other Precautions NONE LISTED


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION VIII - Control Measures
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Respiratory Protection IF EXPOSURE LEVELS EXCEED THOSE ESTABLISHED USE APPROVED AIR SUPPLIED RESPIRATOR IN ABSENCE OF PROPER ENVIRONMENTAL CONTROLS
Ventilation PROVIDE SUFFICIENT VENTILATION TO AVOID EXPOSURE LEVELS ABOVE ESTABLISHED TLV'S
Protective Gloves CHEMICAL RESISTANT
Eye Protection SPLASH GOGGLES
Other Protective Equipment IMPERVIOUS CLOTHING
Work Hygenic Practices WASH HANDS THOROUGHLY AFTER USE


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION IX - Label Data
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Protect Eye YES
Protect Skin YES
Protect Respiratory NO
Chronic Indicator UNKNOWN
Contact Code UNKNOWN
Fire Code UNKNOWN
Health Code UNKNOWN
React Code UNKNOWN


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION X - Transportation Data
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Container Quantity 1
Unit of Measure QT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION XI - Site Specific/Reporting Information
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Volatile Organic Compounds (P/G) 0
Volatile Organic Compounds (G/L) 0


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION XII - Ingredients/Identity Information
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ingredient # 01
Ingredient Name BENZENE, 1,2-DICHLORO-
CAS Number 95501
Percent 0
Ingredient # 02
Ingredient Name MINERAL SPIRITS
CAS Number 8052413
Percent 0
Ingredient # 03
Ingredient Name NAPTHENIC HYDROCARBONS
CAS Number 64742525
Percent 0

jmc23200

Here's a bit of an article from Blackstone Labs:

Detergents and Solvents
Many of the older, better-known oil treatments on the market do not make claims nearly so lavish as the new upstarts. Old standbys like Bardahl, Rislone and Marvel Mystery Oil, instead offer things like "quieter lifters," "reduced oil burning" and a "cleaner engine." Most of these products are made up of solvents and detergents designed to dissolve sludge and carbon deposits inside your engine so they can be flushed or burned out. Wynn's Friction Proofing Oil, for example, is 83 percent kerosene. Other brands use naphthalene, xylene, acetone and isopropanol. Usually, these ingredients will be found in a base of standard mineral oil.

In general, these products are designed to do just the opposite of what the PTFE and zinc phosphate additives claim to do. Instead of leaving behind a "coating" or a "plating" on your engine surfaces, they are designed to strip away such things.

All of these products will strip sludge and deposits out and clean up your engine, particularly if it is an older, abused one . The problem is, unless you have some way of determining just how much is needed to remove your deposits without going any further, such solvents also can strip away the boundary lubrication layer provided by your oil. Overuse of solvents is an easy trap to fall into, and one which can promote harmful metal-to-metal contact within your engine.

As a general rule of thumb these products had their place and were at least moderately useful on older automobile and motorcycle engines of the Fifties and Sixties, but are basically unneeded on the more efficient engine designs of the past few decades.




After reading this, I either need to dumb down the dosage of MMO I am using or be glad we don't have an efficient engine ... oops did I say that out loud

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

You could have just posted this part, haha.

Anyway, that is still pretty vague. How much of each ingredient?

robrecht

This has been discussed in detail. See, eg, this post:

jmc23200

You just ruined the mystery

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Again, that is all hear say and while I respect Jax's opinion, he is no authority.
Where is that data coming from? Where are the product data sheets showing it's viscosity, flash point, etc.

I actually think it may be a good premix based on the fact that many have used it for years but unfortunately most of what I have read supporting it is not scientific and also has no bearing on it being used a premix in rotary engine.

These are my own opinions so I hope no takes offense.

robrecht

As he says, it is based on MSDS filings and chemical analysis. More detailed discussion can be found over on BITOG. Do you also refuse to eat KFC or drink Coke because they have proprietary recipes?

jmc23200

We all get into a pissing match about oil, air filters and premix they are one of the last things we can actually control in our cars

always.anthony

mmo is magic. science may prove it doesn't work. but if we believe hard enough. it lubricates.

haha 8 oz. per fill up. peace at mind.

may or may not work. jax said it did. its been used in rotaries. at the very least it wont hurt our car..

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

I have looked at the MSDS filings and there are none specific to MMO that I could find, only to it's basic ingredients. I have read all of the discussion but again, it is just discussion by laymen. MMO is not tested under any standard so its hard to say what it really does or does not do in a certain environment (hence the mystery). And the KFC comment is not even worth responding too.

robrecht

Just an attempt at humor, don't take this stuff too seriously. A few minutes ago you were questioning whether MMO was a solvent or a lubricant and claiming that people were just guessing or talking out their asses. I think we've shown you that people have indeed analyzed this and spoken about it from very knowledgable perspectives. Maybe not at your level of expertise, but I just tried to help you answer some of your most basic questions.

Spirograph

Umm, I posted to this thread today, my User CP verifies it, yet my post is not showing up?

Anyway, what I basically said, was that MMO is primarily mineral oil with small amounts of benzene and naptha. Since carbon buildup is one of the 2 big Renesis killers, I think the benzene and naptha in small amounts would be good. I agree, I'd like to see some hard scientific proof that it isn't fighting the work of the Idemitsu premix (I mix both). Some people say that MMO is also effective as a premix due to the lubricious part of it's status as a lubricious cleaner. Well, that's all due to the mineral oil. Can anyone comment on how well mineral oil might protect in high load/rpm engines; film strength and all that? I primarily use the Idemitsu for that purpose, and the MMO as the cleaner. I choose MMO over FP Plus because I'd rather have a cleaner that's primarily lubricious (and I'm also not convinced of the speculation that the chemical in FP Plus is in sufficient quantity to convert carbon to graphite). From my understanding, the primary cleaning action of MMO is due to the fact that the mineral oil vaporizes, thus cleaning similar to spraying water mist into the brake booster for a steam clean, except the MMO won't kill the cat.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Haha, I don't take it seriously And I have no level of expertise, just my my knowledge from my own research. No doubt people use MMO and like it but the bottom line is that no Renesis engine running MMO has ever been torn apart to show it does anything so really there is no data to support it does.

Bottom line is that it appears to be a solvent first, and a low end lubricant second. Not what I want lubricating my seals. Now show me some specific data from MMO as to what percentage of what is in it and then I will change my mind.

robrecht

Usually people don't tear down an engine unless there's a problem, I wouldn't be too concerned about the need to tear down a Renesis using MMO. So many people have been using MMO as premix in rotary engines over the years, long before the RX-8 even existed. IIRC, there was an attempt over at RX7Club to find a single rotary engine that had failed using MMO and none could be found. Reminds me of the critics of TC3W, contrary to the experience of thousands of users over many years. Even the biggest critic here admits that it's better than not using any premix and a long-time rebuilder has posted in this thread that it does a great deal indeed.
Why do you say that? 70% oil doesn't sound like it's primarily a solvent in our context. But the term solvent is used kind of ambiguously sometimes. Gas is a solvent--should we not use that in our engines either? OMG, I'm drinking a solvent right now! If I don't post any more on this subject, it may be because I was killed by solvents!

Spirograph

[QUOTE=OMG, I'm drinking a solvent right now![/QUOTE]