Gas/Oil Premix Thread
01-17-2010, 01:30 AM
#2076
The name is silly, but that's just an old fashioned marketing approach from 1923. The only use being discussed here is as a premix that offers some lubricating and cleaning properties in a single product that is cheap and easy to use. Those who have analyzed it have told us what's in it, and I see no reason to doubt their credibility so it's "brew" or what it's made up of doesn't really seem to be an issue to me. Lots and lots of people have used it without a problem. If someone believes there's a problem, please tell me why exactly.
and how many engines / flashes have you gone through?
premix is the help for those that got the cars early.. and a bonus for the rest..
i have had more different preimixs in my car than most.. really.. cost to me, a lot of fuel pumps..
if you would like to ask me about one i would love to give you an answer..
premix is not what it was in 04.. and that cost me time and money..
so if you want to **** on mmo for pre mix you better be able to say you ran indemsu and fp+ for 10k miles to prove it..
confused.
beers
Last edited by swoope; 01-17-2010 at 01:37 AM.
01-17-2010, 02:34 AM
#2077
Super Moderator
And yes, I expect there will be carbon/soot on them, It will be interested to see if it passes my fingernail scrape test!
01-17-2010, 05:12 AM
#2078
Registered
robrecht I dont have any information for or against MMO, but I have to point out the absurdity of your request towards 9krpmrx8.
You are asking him to provide proof (hard evidence, irrefutable, fact based, published) proof that MMO's composition is NOT what was posted by Jax.
When in fact, Jax's proof is anecdotal without any proof, fact, evidence or published proof.
Its like asking to provide proof the bible isnt true.
Regardless of Jax's credibility or MMO's actually composition, do you not see what you are asking makes no sense?
Thing is, you are asking it as if 9krpmrx8 was the one fighting against proven science, when he is the one asking for it.
You are asking him to provide proof (hard evidence, irrefutable, fact based, published) proof that MMO's composition is NOT what was posted by Jax.
When in fact, Jax's proof is anecdotal without any proof, fact, evidence or published proof.
Its like asking to provide proof the bible isnt true.
Regardless of Jax's credibility or MMO's actually composition, do you not see what you are asking makes no sense?
Thing is, you are asking it as if 9krpmrx8 was the one fighting against proven science, when he is the one asking for it.
01-17-2010, 05:28 AM
#2079
Registered
Coming back to this, I have freakin' searched and searched at BITOG and only found the same ole' banter about MMO, which is basically that many use it and it has not killed their engines so it must be good.
I was not able to find any data or testing showing exactly what the makeup of it is aside from the official MSDS. And actually I found some "expert" opinions that basically say its a low end 2 stroke wannabe and so the opinion is, "Why use it when there are great 2 stroke oils out there?" Another common belief (would like confirmation of this) is that two of the basic ingredients of MMO are refined out of motor oil so why add them back when using MMO as an oil additive.
Any input is greatly appreciated. This stuff is super cheap, I would be happy to fins out it is as good as the Amsoil 2 stroke I am running now.
I was not able to find any data or testing showing exactly what the makeup of it is aside from the official MSDS. And actually I found some "expert" opinions that basically say its a low end 2 stroke wannabe and so the opinion is, "Why use it when there are great 2 stroke oils out there?" Another common belief (would like confirmation of this) is that two of the basic ingredients of MMO are refined out of motor oil so why add them back when using MMO as an oil additive.
Any input is greatly appreciated. This stuff is super cheap, I would be happy to fins out it is as good as the Amsoil 2 stroke I am running now.
01-17-2010, 05:42 AM
#2080
Registered
yep,
and how many engines / flashes have you gone through?
premix is the help for those that got the cars early.. and a bonus for the rest..
i have had more different preimixs in my car than most.. really.. cost to me, a lot of fuel pumps..
if you would like to ask me about one i would love to give you an answer..
premix is not what it was in 04.. and that cost me time and money..
so if you want to **** on mmo for pre mix you better be able to say you ran indemsu and fp+ for 10k miles to prove it..
confused.
beers
and how many engines / flashes have you gone through?
premix is the help for those that got the cars early.. and a bonus for the rest..
i have had more different preimixs in my car than most.. really.. cost to me, a lot of fuel pumps..
if you would like to ask me about one i would love to give you an answer..
premix is not what it was in 04.. and that cost me time and money..
so if you want to **** on mmo for pre mix you better be able to say you ran indemsu and fp+ for 10k miles to prove it..
confused.
beers
01-17-2010, 08:44 AM
#2081
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But you are asking him to prove something is not, which has not been proven in the first place.
He just want a real analysis done and it to be documented, is it too much to ask before using a product that has existed for a century?
I really dont think its unreasonable.
01-17-2010, 09:15 AM
#2082
Registered
There you are, at it again. Ok, your not asking for scientific proof.
But you are asking him to prove something is not, which has not been proven in the first place.
He just want a real analysis done and it to be documented, is it too much to ask before using a product that has existed for a century?
I really dont think its unreasonable.
But you are asking him to prove something is not, which has not been proven in the first place.
He just want a real analysis done and it to be documented, is it too much to ask before using a product that has existed for a century?
I really dont think its unreasonable.
01-17-2010, 11:20 AM
#2083
you know when it comes down to it---prove ANY premix is of benefit on the renasis with a properly operating pre 09 omp? Also prove what is the effective and non affective ratio to use.
I have never seen a scientific study done? Some anecdotal findings have been shared as in increased vacuum and slight hp increase, but what else?And, oviously the pre 09 engines needed a better omp system--so the changes in the newer model.
Bur where is the numbers, findings?
Sometimes to just have to trust experience and wisdom that has come from many hands on analysis.
OD
I have never seen a scientific study done? Some anecdotal findings have been shared as in increased vacuum and slight hp increase, but what else?And, oviously the pre 09 engines needed a better omp system--so the changes in the newer model.
Bur where is the numbers, findings?
Sometimes to just have to trust experience and wisdom that has come from many hands on analysis.
OD
01-17-2010, 11:47 AM
#2084
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
you know when it comes down to it---prove ANY premix is of benefit on the renasis with a properly operating pre 09 omp? Also prove what is the effective and non affective ratio to use.
I have never seen a scientific study done? Some anecdotal findings have been shared as in increased vacuum and slight hp increase, but what else?And, oviously the pre 09 engines needed a better omp system--so the changes in the newer model.
Bur where is the numbers, findings?
Sometimes to just have to trust experience and wisdom that has come from many hands on analysis.
OD
I have never seen a scientific study done? Some anecdotal findings have been shared as in increased vacuum and slight hp increase, but what else?And, oviously the pre 09 engines needed a better omp system--so the changes in the newer model.
Bur where is the numbers, findings?
Sometimes to just have to trust experience and wisdom that has come from many hands on analysis.
OD
Very true OD
. Robrecht is just missing the point of my argument entirely and feels that I am bashing MMO just because I don't like it or something. I get the feeling that he thinks that if I can't prove it doesn't work that it must mean that it does. When my current engine goes (SOHN installed and premixed from the start) then we will have a chance to disassemble it, and see if premixing and the SOHN really makes a difference. Now if the engine fails prematurely then it is all a huge waste of time and money
But what I do like about using a good 2 stroke (doesn't matter, Saber Pro, Idemitsu, etc.) is that we have a product data sheet for each product detailing exactly how it stands up to industry standard tests and so we do have some sense of how it will work in our cars because of the common use and years of testing done by dirt bike race teams, etc.. The Lucas UCL I use (as premix in the gas only) is a lubricant first and that is the main point of premixing the gas.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 01-17-2010 at 01:18 PM.
01-17-2010, 12:19 PM
#2085
Registered
BTW, that was olddragger you quoted in your last quote, not ASH. I agree with OD very much that when it comes to which premixes are good and which ratios to use you're better off trusting in the experience and wisdom of many people here and elsewhere who pretty much do know what they're talking about.
01-17-2010, 01:29 PM
#2086
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
I sound like a broken record.
Why would I need to take anything up with some layman on a forum who has not tested anything or is not at least a professional in the field of chemical engineering or something related? You could quote 100 forum members OPINIONS on what MMO is made up of, that doesn't mean **** to me, I don't know them from Adam. I want to see test results or documentation from the manufacturer or API, ILSAC, etc. showing what it is.
Like I said, JAX seems to be an educated individual and was a valid contributor to this forum but no where that I can see, did he or anyone else ever test MMO or offer any definitive proof as to what is in it. I researched over at BITOG and all I found a was a super long thread of people stating why they or do not use MMO.
Not to mention, JAX got rid of his 8, right? Doesn't he drive a truck now? I will have to look for some posts to see why.
Why would I need to take anything up with some layman on a forum who has not tested anything or is not at least a professional in the field of chemical engineering or something related? You could quote 100 forum members OPINIONS on what MMO is made up of, that doesn't mean **** to me, I don't know them from Adam. I want to see test results or documentation from the manufacturer or API, ILSAC, etc. showing what it is.
Like I said, JAX seems to be an educated individual and was a valid contributor to this forum but no where that I can see, did he or anyone else ever test MMO or offer any definitive proof as to what is in it. I researched over at BITOG and all I found a was a super long thread of people stating why they or do not use MMO.
Not to mention, JAX got rid of his 8, right? Doesn't he drive a truck now? I will have to look for some posts to see why.
01-17-2010, 01:57 PM
#2087
Registered
I sound like a broken record.
Why would I need to take anything up with some layman on a forum who has not tested anything or is not at least a professional in the field of chemical engineering or something related? You could quote 100 forum members OPINIONS on what MMO is made up of, that doesn't mean **** to me, I don't know them from Adam. I want to see test results or documentation from the manufacturer or API, ILSAC, etc. showing what it is.
Like I said, JAX seems to be an educated individual and was a valid contributor to this forum but no where that I can see, did he or anyone else ever test MMO or offer any definitive proof as to what is in it. I researched over at BITOG and all I found a was a super long thread of people stating why they or do not use MMO.
Not to mention, JAX got rid of his 8, right? Doesn't he drive a truck now? I will have to look for some posts to see why.
Why would I need to take anything up with some layman on a forum who has not tested anything or is not at least a professional in the field of chemical engineering or something related? You could quote 100 forum members OPINIONS on what MMO is made up of, that doesn't mean **** to me, I don't know them from Adam. I want to see test results or documentation from the manufacturer or API, ILSAC, etc. showing what it is.
Like I said, JAX seems to be an educated individual and was a valid contributor to this forum but no where that I can see, did he or anyone else ever test MMO or offer any definitive proof as to what is in it. I researched over at BITOG and all I found a was a super long thread of people stating why they or do not use MMO.
Not to mention, JAX got rid of his 8, right? Doesn't he drive a truck now? I will have to look for some posts to see why.
01-17-2010, 07:01 PM
#2089
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I believe MMO's slogan tells you what it is An expensive premix doesnt mean a good premix. Just because something looks good on paper doesnt always mean it works well in the field. I will use any product that hundreds of people have used and reported good results over a long period of time. Idemitsu, Saber, MMO and a couple other premixes are all on that list. MMO just happens to be the easiest to find locally, so typically thats what I use.
An expensive premix doesnt mean a good premix. Just because something looks good on paper doesnt always mean it works well in the field. I will use any product that hundreds of people have used and reported good results over a long period of time. Idemitsu, Saber, MMO and a couple other premixes are all on that list. MMO just happens to be the easiest to find locally, so typically thats what I use.
01-18-2010, 01:33 PM
#2090
Lubricious
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Here's a bit of an article from Blackstone Labs:
Detergents and Solvents
Many of the older, better-known oil treatments on the market do not make claims nearly so lavish as the new upstarts. Old standbys like Bardahl, Rislone and Marvel Mystery Oil, instead offer things like "quieter lifters," "reduced oil burning" and a "cleaner engine." Most of these products are made up of solvents and detergents designed to dissolve sludge and carbon deposits inside your engine so they can be flushed or burned out. Wynn's Friction Proofing Oil, for example, is 83 percent kerosene. Other brands use naphthalene, xylene, acetone and isopropanol. Usually, these ingredients will be found in a base of standard mineral oil.
In general, these products are designed to do just the opposite of what the PTFE and zinc phosphate additives claim to do. Instead of leaving behind a "coating" or a "plating" on your engine surfaces, they are designed to strip away such things.
All of these products will strip sludge and deposits out and clean up your engine, particularly if it is an older, abused one . The problem is, unless you have some way of determining just how much is needed to remove your deposits without going any further, such solvents also can strip away the boundary lubrication layer provided by your oil. Overuse of solvents is an easy trap to fall into, and one which can promote harmful metal-to-metal contact within your engine.
As a general rule of thumb these products had their place and were at least moderately useful on older automobile and motorcycle engines of the Fifties and Sixties, but are basically unneeded on the more efficient engine designs of the past few decades.
After reading this, I either need to dumb down the dosage of MMO I am using or be glad we don't have an efficient engine ... oops did I say that out loud
Detergents and Solvents
Many of the older, better-known oil treatments on the market do not make claims nearly so lavish as the new upstarts. Old standbys like Bardahl, Rislone and Marvel Mystery Oil, instead offer things like "quieter lifters," "reduced oil burning" and a "cleaner engine." Most of these products are made up of solvents and detergents designed to dissolve sludge and carbon deposits inside your engine so they can be flushed or burned out. Wynn's Friction Proofing Oil, for example, is 83 percent kerosene. Other brands use naphthalene, xylene, acetone and isopropanol. Usually, these ingredients will be found in a base of standard mineral oil.
In general, these products are designed to do just the opposite of what the PTFE and zinc phosphate additives claim to do. Instead of leaving behind a "coating" or a "plating" on your engine surfaces, they are designed to strip away such things.
All of these products will strip sludge and deposits out and clean up your engine, particularly if it is an older, abused one . The problem is, unless you have some way of determining just how much is needed to remove your deposits without going any further, such solvents also can strip away the boundary lubrication layer provided by your oil. Overuse of solvents is an easy trap to fall into, and one which can promote harmful metal-to-metal contact within your engine.
As a general rule of thumb these products had their place and were at least moderately useful on older automobile and motorcycle engines of the Fifties and Sixties, but are basically unneeded on the more efficient engine designs of the past few decades.
After reading this, I either need to dumb down the dosage of MMO I am using or be glad we don't have an efficient engine ... oops did I say that out loud
01-19-2010, 12:10 AM
#2091
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Hey Robrecht,
Found this interesting quote from an interview with the oil analysis business that is now Blackstone labs from what I read. Now don't shoot the messenger I am just quoting but this guy seems to be a bit more credible than some random forum members (myself included).
Found this interesting quote from an interview with the oil analysis business that is now Blackstone labs from what I read. Now don't shoot the messenger I am just quoting
but this guy seems to be a bit more credible than some random forum members (myself included).
What's your opinion on oil additives?
Our study on Av Blend disclosed no measurable benefit. We heard from a lot of people who used it and said they were going to keep using it, and most of those testimonials came from small bore Continentals -- 0-300 and 0-200 Continentals -- where the guy said the AvBlend seemed to stop their valve sticking. As far as a measurable benefit, I spent two years developing the data and I never did find anything.
I am not an advocate of snake oils, and I'm not an advocate of becoming a crankcase chemist. When you pour this stuff into an engine you're taking a manufacturer's advertising agency's word for what it's going to do when it mixes with the oil that's in there. I think you're crazy.
Marvel Mystery Oil is mostly solvent. You pour it in your crankcase and you get diluted oil. The solvent flashes off at a couple hundred degrees, so it hadn't really done anything. STP is a viscosity index improver, so it thickens the oil. The Teflon stuff is a joke, but lots of people have made lots of money telling you that you can put Teflon in your engine.
The oil companies spend tons of money to develop the best oil that they can develop to meet the specifications of those engines, and then some guy over here with a race car in his backyard and a couple of buckets in his garage starts selling this stuff that he says makes his race car run better.
I make an additive right here in Tulsa. It's highly refined cattle manure from the yards out in the Texas panhandle. We only use Texas panhandle feedlots to get the raw material, and we blend it with a solvent material that will flash off real fast -- we get that out of the bathtub faucet. It's $19.95 a quart and we pay all shipping and handling. You pour it in your oil, and we don't know what it'll do and we don't really care -- we got your $19.95. I call it BSIAB -- bullshit in a bottle.
Our study on Av Blend disclosed no measurable benefit. We heard from a lot of people who used it and said they were going to keep using it, and most of those testimonials came from small bore Continentals -- 0-300 and 0-200 Continentals -- where the guy said the AvBlend seemed to stop their valve sticking. As far as a measurable benefit, I spent two years developing the data and I never did find anything.
I am not an advocate of snake oils, and I'm not an advocate of becoming a crankcase chemist. When you pour this stuff into an engine you're taking a manufacturer's advertising agency's word for what it's going to do when it mixes with the oil that's in there. I think you're crazy.
Marvel Mystery Oil is mostly solvent. You pour it in your crankcase and you get diluted oil. The solvent flashes off at a couple hundred degrees, so it hadn't really done anything. STP is a viscosity index improver, so it thickens the oil. The Teflon stuff is a joke, but lots of people have made lots of money telling you that you can put Teflon in your engine.
The oil companies spend tons of money to develop the best oil that they can develop to meet the specifications of those engines, and then some guy over here with a race car in his backyard and a couple of buckets in his garage starts selling this stuff that he says makes his race car run better.
I make an additive right here in Tulsa. It's highly refined cattle manure from the yards out in the Texas panhandle. We only use Texas panhandle feedlots to get the raw material, and we blend it with a solvent material that will flash off real fast -- we get that out of the bathtub faucet. It's $19.95 a quart and we pay all shipping and handling. You pour it in your oil, and we don't know what it'll do and we don't really care -- we got your $19.95. I call it BSIAB -- bullshit in a bottle.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 01-19-2010 at 12:18 AM.
01-19-2010, 01:52 AM
#2093
Super Moderator
/\ How true 9K....
A MECHANIC in a Bottle.....there is one born every day..
A MECHANIC in a Bottle.....there is one born every day..
01-19-2010, 07:06 AM
#2094
Registered
Hey Robrecht,
Found this interesting quote from an interview with the oil analysis business that is now Blackstone labs from what I read. Now don't shoot the messenger I am just quoting but this guy seems to be a bit more credible than some random forum members (myself included).
"Marvel Mystery Oil is mostly solvent. You pour it in your crankcase and you get diluted oil. The solvent flashes off at a couple hundred degrees, so it hadn't really done anything."
Found this interesting quote from an interview with the oil analysis business that is now Blackstone labs from what I read. Now don't shoot the messenger I am just quoting
but this guy seems to be a bit more credible than some random forum members (myself included)."Marvel Mystery Oil is mostly solvent. You pour it in your crankcase and you get diluted oil. The solvent flashes off at a couple hundred degrees, so it hadn't really done anything."
01-19-2010, 07:22 AM
#2095
you know when it comes down to it---prove ANY premix is of benefit on the renasis with a properly operating pre 09 omp? Also prove what is the effective and non affective ratio to use.
I have never seen a scientific study done? Some anecdotal findings have been shared as in increased vacuum and slight hp increase, but what else?And, oviously the pre 09 engines needed a better omp system--so the changes in the newer model.
Bur where is the numbers, findings?
Sometimes to just have to trust experience and wisdom that has come from many hands on analysis.
OD
I have never seen a scientific study done? Some anecdotal findings have been shared as in increased vacuum and slight hp increase, but what else?And, oviously the pre 09 engines needed a better omp system--so the changes in the newer model.
Bur where is the numbers, findings?
Sometimes to just have to trust experience and wisdom that has come from many hands on analysis.
OD
I will bring a copy to RA in March. It's too big to post or email (12MB)
01-19-2010, 08:40 AM
#2099
Thanks, I have been living 1 mile away from USA for too long. I use the word pop instead of soda and I say eh instead of hunh. MMO seems like a marketing masterpeice.
I almost bought a 6 pack of little 2 cycle quaker bottles @ meijer, they looked so cute.
I will always remain a North American Citizen that premixes.
I almost bought a 6 pack of little 2 cycle quaker bottles @ meijer, they looked so cute.
I will always remain a North American Citizen that premixes.
