Gas/Oil Premix Thread
02-10-2010, 05:53 PM
#2301
Metatron
iTrader: (1)
A common mis-interpretation is the difference between 'Low Ash' oils and 'Ashless' oils.
Two stroke marked low ash is designed to burn leaving very low levels of ash from the additive package, i.e. it has additives that get the job done yet leave minimal ash (we are not talking carbon here)
Ashless oil uses dispersants to hold particles in suspension as they are swept, unburned, into the exhaust system. Obviously they have a hard time passing smoke tests, and simply burn away in the cat, leaving whatever debris they carry.
You may notice that NO engine lubricated by TCW3 uses a catalytic convertor.
Repost, but relevant.....
http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oilworks.htm
Two stroke marked low ash is designed to burn leaving very low levels of ash from the additive package, i.e. it has additives that get the job done yet leave minimal ash (we are not talking carbon here)
Ashless oil uses dispersants to hold particles in suspension as they are swept, unburned, into the exhaust system. Obviously they have a hard time passing smoke tests, and simply burn away in the cat, leaving whatever debris they carry.
You may notice that NO engine lubricated by TCW3 uses a catalytic convertor.
Repost, but relevant.....
http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oilworks.htm
02-10-2010, 05:56 PM
#2302
Registered
As stated earlier in this thread by a layman, without any clerical or sacramental status, it is JASO FC+ rated, which IIRC means it exceeds JASO FC spes but may not have been been evaluated for JASO FD. You will need to check that out for us mere laymen.
02-10-2010, 06:03 PM
#2303
BDC Motorsports
This is where experience trumps theory IMHO. Even Stealth admits that premixing with TCW3 is better than no premix. When it comes to judging between premixes, it seems most people are going off theory that will never really be tested.
Now, BDC, I've been wanting to ask you something for a while. IIRC, most of your experience tearing down rotaries was with older 13Bs. Is that right? If you now have more experience with the side ports on the Renesis, do you see a difference in worse carbon build-up in the ports and side seals?
Now, BDC, I've been wanting to ask you something for a while. IIRC, most of your experience tearing down rotaries was with older 13Bs. Is that right? If you now have more experience with the side ports on the Renesis, do you see a difference in worse carbon build-up in the ports and side seals?
I don't. I only see the rotors themselves as being gobs more carbon'd up than what I see on the older motors. The exhaust ports do have some buildup on them, particularly at their closing edges, but that's it really. Nothing out of the ordinary on the side and corner seal grooves. The rotors are just way filthy, though.
B
02-10-2010, 06:10 PM
#2304
Registered
Hey Rob,
I don't. I only see the rotors themselves as being gobs more carbon'd up than what I see on the older motors. The exhaust ports do have some buildup on them, particularly at their closing edges, but that's it really. Nothing out of the ordinary on the side and corner seal grooves. The rotors are just way filthy, though.
B
I don't. I only see the rotors themselves as being gobs more carbon'd up than what I see on the older motors. The exhaust ports do have some buildup on them, particularly at their closing edges, but that's it really. Nothing out of the ordinary on the side and corner seal grooves. The rotors are just way filthy, though.
B
Last edited by robrecht; 02-10-2010 at 06:16 PM.
02-10-2010, 08:39 PM
#2305
BDC Motorsports
B
02-11-2010, 03:29 AM
#2306
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atp.aspx
Saber Professional is formulated with high-temperature detergent additives to help prevent hard carbon deposits from forming in these hot-operating motors.
Saber Professional is recommended for pre-mix where ISO-L-EGD, JASO FD or API TC is specified.
Saber Professional is recommended for pre-mix where ISO-L-EGD, JASO FD or API TC is specified.
Last edited by TeamRX8; 02-11-2010 at 03:33 AM.
02-11-2010, 03:43 AM
#2307
Lubricious
Join Date: Oct 2003
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If I can interject, I suspect it's the lack of a peripheral exhaust port. There's no exit for partially-burned oil to be slung out the exhaust port. It's gotta stick around until it's all-the-way burned. The Renesis oil-injection rates were very miserly. They've been bumped up here and there, but my understanding is they're still quite lower than previous incarnations of Mazda rotaries.
02-11-2010, 11:04 AM
#2308
Lubricious
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Polybutene viscosity 10.5cts@100deg C= carbon residue 2.6%wt
Mineral oil + detergents (somewhat like 5w30 dino motor oil) viscosity 10.9cst@100deg C= carbon residue 32.4%wt
I've noticed that Mobil 1 2t is sticker than Mobil 1 0w40. It's hard to get off the paint compared to mo. IMO that helps seal gases like the paper says.
I don't doubt any oil is better than nothing, but this paper finds that any motor oil makes lots of hard carbon which I think most people here understand. Luckily my RX8 only uses 1/2 quart in 2000miles so at 4oz premix per fillup, my 2t premix is 2/3rd's of total oil on seals.
Mineral oil + detergents (somewhat like 5w30 dino motor oil) viscosity 10.9cst@100deg C= carbon residue 32.4%wt
I've noticed that Mobil 1 2t is sticker than Mobil 1 0w40. It's hard to get off the paint compared to mo. IMO that helps seal gases like the paper says.
I don't doubt any oil is better than nothing, but this paper finds that any motor oil makes lots of hard carbon which I think most people here understand. Luckily my RX8 only uses 1/2 quart in 2000miles so at 4oz premix per fillup, my 2t premix is 2/3rd's of total oil on seals.
Interesting chart... I wonder if this influenced Mazda's engine oil recommendations. Mineral oil, and low viscosity give the lowest carbonaceous deposits on that chart. So maybe non-synthetic 5w20 wasn't just an EPA dodge? Maybe even explains the reputed dislike for Mobil1 in particular (PAO).
Makes me feel a little better about my 5-weight mystery milk though
02-11-2010, 11:05 AM
#2309
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a common mis-interpretation is the difference between 'low ash' oils and 'ashless' oils.
Two stroke marked low ash is designed to burn leaving very low levels of ash from the additive package, i.e. It has additives that get the job done yet leave minimal ash (we are not talking carbon here)
ashless oil uses dispersants to hold particles in suspension as they are swept, unburned, into the exhaust system. Obviously they have a hard time passing smoke tests, and simply burn away in the cat, leaving whatever debris they carry.
You may notice that no engine lubricated by tcw3 uses a catalytic convertor.
Repost, but relevant.....
http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oilworks.htm
Two stroke marked low ash is designed to burn leaving very low levels of ash from the additive package, i.e. It has additives that get the job done yet leave minimal ash (we are not talking carbon here)
ashless oil uses dispersants to hold particles in suspension as they are swept, unburned, into the exhaust system. Obviously they have a hard time passing smoke tests, and simply burn away in the cat, leaving whatever debris they carry.
You may notice that no engine lubricated by tcw3 uses a catalytic convertor.
Repost, but relevant.....
http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oilworks.htm
02-11-2010, 11:21 AM
#2310
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
You asked who, so I told you. I've given up trying to convince you of anything. There was a time when you excepted Stealth's opinion from your preference for your own research, something about him working all his life in the petroleum industry. But I guess you've made significant advances since then. 
Like I said, I looked at all the lists for Jaso and I don't see Idemitsu premix anywhere because it is not certified so who is to say it exceeds Jaso? I'm not discounting his input but people act like so many "experts" are stating TC-W3 is bad to run in a rotary when honestly there is no data to support that statement. It may not be good for the cat converter but I'm not running one so............. I bet you can find plenty of people with a cat that have premixed their rotary for years without a cat failure.
My thinking on certain matters changes over time, I'm not afraid to admit that. It seems to me certain people takes others word as fact without question.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 02-11-2010 at 11:34 AM.
02-11-2010, 01:26 PM
#2311
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Oh I totally value Stealth's opinion on the matter but it's just that, an educated opinion.
Like I said, I looked at all the lists for Jaso and I don't see Idemitsu premix anywhere because it is not certified so who is to say it exceeds Jaso? I'm not discounting his input but people act like so many "experts" are stating TC-W3 is bad to run in a rotary when honestly there is no data to support that statement. It may not be good for the cat converter but I'm not running one so............. I bet you can find plenty of people with a cat that have premixed their rotary for years without a cat failure.
My thinking on certain matters changes over time, I'm not afraid to admit that. It seems to me certain people takes others word as fact without question.
Like I said, I looked at all the lists for Jaso and I don't see Idemitsu premix anywhere because it is not certified so who is to say it exceeds Jaso? I'm not discounting his input but people act like so many "experts" are stating TC-W3 is bad to run in a rotary when honestly there is no data to support that statement. It may not be good for the cat converter but I'm not running one so............. I bet you can find plenty of people with a cat that have premixed their rotary for years without a cat failure.
My thinking on certain matters changes over time, I'm not afraid to admit that. It seems to me certain people takes others word as fact without question.
Additives that do not burn completely get on the cat, carbon goes through the cat)evidence on your exhaust tips), carbon sticks to these additives on in the cat, you get the point.
For cars with no cats, it would be just fine.
02-11-2010, 02:15 PM
#2313
I had a conversation with a Royal Purple tech guy earlier this year, who happens to also be a rotor head. He succesfully used RP's TCW-3 oil in his race prepped 12A as the exclusive lubrication for the engine seals (i.e., no oil injection; premix only) for several seasons. Note that this is a very high HP motor, and also note that like the rest of us, he can't afford to rebuild the motor every race. He had excellent wear characteristics when he did tear it down.
Of course, we should take this with a grain of salt, but it would seem that RP's TCW-3 can stand up to the rigors of a pre-mix in a rotary. I did ask him about cat clogging, and his response was that it was better than the 5w30 being injected into the engine, which I suppose is true. He did not address if some other premix would be better yet from that perspective; nor did I ask him.
In the end, it would make sense to choose something that is known to be easiest on the cat (at least for cars with cats). I'm still on my first quart of the RP; I'll probably switch to Idemitsu or Amsoil.
Of course, we should take this with a grain of salt, but it would seem that RP's TCW-3 can stand up to the rigors of a pre-mix in a rotary. I did ask him about cat clogging, and his response was that it was better than the 5w30 being injected into the engine, which I suppose is true. He did not address if some other premix would be better yet from that perspective; nor did I ask him.
In the end, it would make sense to choose something that is known to be easiest on the cat (at least for cars with cats). I'm still on my first quart of the RP; I'll probably switch to Idemitsu or Amsoil.
02-11-2010, 05:48 PM
#2315
Except that you're opinion isn't even educated, and yet you want to downplay those that are
and you're also the same guy who claimed he had 230 rwhp without ever producing anything to back it up
talk about blowing pre-mix smoke out your stained tailpipe ...
just sold my cat pipe which was run with Saber Pro from day 1, you'd never even know ....
https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...0&d=1265778375
Happy motor boating, rotardo
.
02-11-2010, 05:55 PM
#2316
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Except that you're opinion isn't even educated, and yet you want to downplay those that are
and you're also the same guy who claimed he had 230 rwhp without ever producing anything to back it up
talk about blowing pre-mix smoke out your stained tailpipe ...
just sold my cat pipe which was run with Saber Pro from day 1, you'd never even know ....
https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...0&d=1265778375
Happy motor boating, rotardo
.
and you're also the same guy who claimed he had 230 rwhp without ever producing anything to back it up
talk about blowing pre-mix smoke out your stained tailpipe ...
just sold my cat pipe which was run with Saber Pro from day 1, you'd never even know ....
https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...0&d=1265778375
Happy motor boating, rotardo
.
. Have your reverted to just making **** up now?You are right though, my opinion on this matter is not really educated.
You never seize to amaze me with your utter bullshit. But it's all good, mommy didn't love you as a child, I understand.
Thanks for the input. God loves you.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 02-11-2010 at 06:03 PM.
02-11-2010, 06:15 PM
#2317
Registered
Oh I totally value Stealth's opinion on the matter but it's just that, an educated opinion.
Like I said, I looked at all the lists for Jaso and I don't see Idemitsu premix anywhere because it is not certified so who is to say it exceeds Jaso? I'm not discounting his input but people act like so many "experts" are stating TC-W3 is bad to run in a rotary when honestly there is no data to support that statement. It may not be good for the cat converter but I'm not running one so............. I bet you can find plenty of people with a cat that have premixed their rotary for years without a cat failure.
My thinking on certain matters changes over time, I'm not afraid to admit that. It seems to me certain people takes others word as fact without question.
Like I said, I looked at all the lists for Jaso and I don't see Idemitsu premix anywhere because it is not certified so who is to say it exceeds Jaso? I'm not discounting his input but people act like so many "experts" are stating TC-W3 is bad to run in a rotary when honestly there is no data to support that statement. It may not be good for the cat converter but I'm not running one so............. I bet you can find plenty of people with a cat that have premixed their rotary for years without a cat failure.
My thinking on certain matters changes over time, I'm not afraid to admit that. It seems to me certain people takes others word as fact without question.
02-11-2010, 08:44 PM
#2318
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Ah hah, I see Team8 has not responded yet.
I love everyone's input. Because we disagree it doesn't mean we should get personal and state I have claimed things that I have absolutely not ( I never ******* said I am making 230WHP, I have no idea how much HP I am making).
It's all about learning. If I just agreed for sake of agreeing what good would that be to me. My problem is with all the people who post things as facts that are not. Do you know how many things have been stated in this board that were believed to be true that are now being questioned by some?
Idemitsu does not have the certificate (or other certification seal) on the bottle from what I see on the bottle and it's not listed in the official JASO site. And no I don't speak Japanese but the has a handy dandy link for it in English.
I love everyone's input. Because we disagree it doesn't mean we should get personal and state I have claimed things that I have absolutely not ( I never ******* said I am making 230WHP, I have no idea how much HP I am making).
It's all about learning. If I just agreed for sake of agreeing what good would that be to me. My problem is with all the people who post things as facts that are not. Do you know how many things have been stated in this board that were believed to be true that are now being questioned by some?
Idemitsu does not have the certificate (or other certification seal) on the bottle from what I see on the bottle and it's not listed in the official JASO site. And no I don't speak Japanese but the has a handy dandy link for it in English.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 02-11-2010 at 08:52 PM.
02-11-2010, 08:51 PM
#2319
Registered
Ah hah, I see Team8 has not responded yet.
I love everyone's input. Because we disagree it doesn't mean anything. It's all about learning. If I just agreed for sake of agreeing what good would that be to me. My problem is with all the people who post things as facts that are not. Do you know how many things have been stated in this board that were believed to be true that are now being questioned by some?
Idemitsu does not have the certificate (or other certification seal) on the bottle from what I see on the bottle and it's not listed in the official JASO site. And no I don't speak Japanese but the has a handy dandy link for it in English.
I love everyone's input. Because we disagree it doesn't mean anything. It's all about learning. If I just agreed for sake of agreeing what good would that be to me. My problem is with all the people who post things as facts that are not. Do you know how many things have been stated in this board that were believed to be true that are now being questioned by some?
Idemitsu does not have the certificate (or other certification seal) on the bottle from what I see on the bottle and it's not listed in the official JASO site. And no I don't speak Japanese but the has a handy dandy link for it in English.
02-11-2010, 08:57 PM
#2320
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Geez.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JASO_FC
Click "English"
http://www.jalos.or.jp/
This thread talks about Amsoil, and other using the JASO, EGD, etc. in their marketing stuff but it's not actually certified.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...=772302&page=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JASO_FC
Again, there is an official JASO seal if the oil has been independently tested. The seal is a rectangle; in the upper quarter of the rectangle will be a serial number, and the lower three quarters will just have the letters MA
http://www.jalos.or.jp/
This thread talks about Amsoil, and other using the JASO, EGD, etc. in their marketing stuff but it's not actually certified.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...=772302&page=1
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 02-11-2010 at 09:17 PM.
02-11-2010, 09:18 PM
#2321
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
I'm not saying that something needs to be certified to be good but it seems shady to me to use the certification in your marketing materials when your oil has not been tested to meet the standards. Why wouldn't they submit it to be tested? Price?
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
02-11-2010, 09:26 PM
#2322
Registered
Wikipedia vs Product Spec sheet that you claimed to have studied:
"Excees JASO FC Classifications"
http://www.ilacorp.com/images/web_premix.pdf
Your argument that this is not true:
[Your Argument Here]
"Excees JASO FC Classifications"
http://www.ilacorp.com/images/web_premix.pdf
Your argument that this is not true:
[Your Argument Here]
02-11-2010, 09:28 PM
#2323
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
I am missing your point, the product data sheet just proves my point of the marketing stuff. It says "Exceeds Jaso" but if it it has never been tested by JASO how do they know it exceeds it? I quoted wikipedia because it was quick, did you read the JASO site?
Thanks for the comments.
Thanks for the comments.
02-11-2010, 09:32 PM
#2324
Registered
I am missing your point, the product data sheet just proves my point of the marketing stuff. It says "Exceeds Jaso" but if it it has never been tested by JASO how do they know it exceeds it? I quoted wikipedia because it was quick, did you read the JASO site?
Thanks for the comments.
Thanks for the comments.
[Place your proof here]