Gas/Oil Premix Thread
02-12-2010, 06:09 PM
#2351
Lubricious
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I am starting to think that our cleaners "are a hoot". I have 6 spark plugs with carbon on them - two of them only 4,000 miles old. So far i have soaked them in FP Plus, Seafoam, MMO and Lucas UCI to no apparent benefit. After they soak I brush them with a toothbrush. Nada.
So now i am taking one that has 11,000 miles on it and i will soak it over night. I don't want to do that with my better plugs because I don't know what it would do to the irridium. But, if the soaking I have done so far doesn't help, i am skeptical of the benefits in my gas besides diluting the Saber Pro I am premixing with.
So now i am taking one that has 11,000 miles on it and i will soak it over night. I don't want to do that with my better plugs because I don't know what it would do to the irridium. But, if the soaking I have done so far doesn't help, i am skeptical of the benefits in my gas besides diluting the Saber Pro I am premixing with.
Keep in mind the operating temp of the plug. They're generally self-cleaning as long as they are the proper heat-range, the air-fuel mixture is good, and there isn't excessive carbon being deposited (too much or smokey premix, etc). It's really the Carbon in the seal grooves that causes problems, or if so much accumulates on the rotors to change compression, cause hot-spots or flake off and jam things (but I don't think I've read of anyone carbon-locking a Renesis)?
Last edited by Nubo; 02-12-2010 at 06:11 PM.
02-12-2010, 07:38 PM
#2352
wankel my wanker
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You can have a go at that here too if you want:
https://www.rx8club.com/lounge-4/mysticism-thread-79972/
https://www.rx8club.com/lounge-4/mysticism-thread-79972/
02-12-2010, 08:15 PM
#2353
Metatron
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I have 6 spark plugs with carbon on them -
I don't think that's carbon - many engines will grow that brown crud.
In carb'd vehicles it was customary to set the mixture by the colour of that crud.
We have more crud due the the deep recess the plug lives in - it doesn't get the turbulence a piston plug does.
I don't think that's carbon - many engines will grow that brown crud.
In carb'd vehicles it was customary to set the mixture by the colour of that crud.
We have more crud due the the deep recess the plug lives in - it doesn't get the turbulence a piston plug does.
02-12-2010, 09:11 PM
#2355
Soaking sounds like a good test, but it seems what really works is a real hot run in the engine with the right to slightly lean gasoline mixture. In other words track day.
I had a 73 RX3 with a side gasket leak of antifreeze that rendered it unstartable. I needed to go several hundred miles, so I put the plugs in the kitchen oven to dry out. I did that trick a few times until I got my rebuild. Always started right up afterwards.
People running even Jaso FB level premix in motorcycles talk about having to take the cyclinders apart a lot to chisel carbon off; something we can't do.
Jaso FC test specs is to minimize that port carbon trouble with polybutene (polyisobutenes).
IMO that Jaso FC is the best chance of a premix solving that carbon in the apex grooves or exhaust ports.
I had a 73 RX3 with a side gasket leak of antifreeze that rendered it unstartable. I needed to go several hundred miles, so I put the plugs in the kitchen oven to dry out. I did that trick a few times until I got my rebuild. Always started right up afterwards.
People running even Jaso FB level premix in motorcycles talk about having to take the cyclinders apart a lot to chisel carbon off; something we can't do.
Jaso FC test specs is to minimize that port carbon trouble with polybutene (polyisobutenes).
IMO that Jaso FC is the best chance of a premix solving that carbon in the apex grooves or exhaust ports.
02-13-2010, 10:17 AM
#2358
Registered
I don't think premix questions are unsolvable, but this thread does seem to get side-tracked, doesn't it?
Some things have been solved with pretty good evidence IMHO, premix is good, pretty much any premix is better than no premix, but not many people are going to be tearing apart their engines after rigidly controlled test conditions to solve minor points about one good premix being better than another good premix. Some people say only use this exact premix, it is the only one to use, and obviously that's just plain silly.
Use of a Sohn adapter so that you can avoid 'burning' 4-cycle also seems obvious, and even has supporting evidence from lots of older rotaries that did very well with any old premix and the OMP removed. But it's a bit of a pain for most people to install and uninstall if you ever need to use the 100k engine warranty. Reasonable and well informed Mazda service departments are few and far between. But there are some out there apparently.
The only questions that seems to be relatively unresolved (for me anyway) are:
1. What cleaning additives might be better than others and why? I woud stay away from continual use of the more aggressive ones, despite what some soaking tests might indicate.
2. What some specs really mean for judging one premix over another?
Most half-way decent premixes have additive packs that should help, but if it weren't for the 4-cycle OMP, I actually wouldn't worry about this too much based on years of experience of those who have gone before us. JASO FD should be the best in terms of judging one premix vs another, but would there be additional benefit by adding something like FP+? 'Detergent' specs on 2-stroke oil are most meaningful for 2-stroke motors, less so for daily drivers running rotaries with 4-stroke OMPs in tact. So I still tend to think for daily driving conditions, it might make sense to also add something like FP+. No proof, just following seemingly intelligent advice offered here.
Discussion of other specs like flash point, viscosity, etc, and their relevance to premix are either interesting or entertaining, depending on who's posting. I would appreciate it if we let the experts explain their reasoning on these fine points if they believe they have real relevance here or even if they just want to educate or demonstrate their expertise. Likewise, I would also appreciate any intelligent critique of any errors of interpretation I may have posted here! I'm just another poor dumbshit like most of us here trying to learn from the really smart guys.
Last edited by robrecht; 02-13-2010 at 10:22 AM.
02-13-2010, 10:55 AM
#2359
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02-13-2010, 02:05 PM
#2361
wankel my wanker
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Good point! But the other thread is also still unsolved; it's just that people realized it's unsolvable within a limited logical system and moved on.
I don't think premix questions are unsolvable, but this thread does seem to get side-tracked, doesn't it?
Some things have been solved with pretty good evidence IMHO, premix is good, pretty much any premix is better than no premix, but not many people are going to be tearing apart their engines after rigidly controlled test conditions to solve minor points about one good premix being better than another good premix. Some people say only use this exact premix, it is the only one to use, and obviously that's just plain silly.
Use of a Sohn adapter so that you can avoid 'burning' 4-cycle also seems obvious, and even has supporting evidence from lots of older rotaries that did very well with any old premix and the OMP removed. But it's a bit of a pain for most people to install and uninstall if you ever need to use the 100k engine warranty. Reasonable and well informed Mazda service departments are few and far between. But there are some out there apparently.
The only questions that seems to be relatively unresolved (for me anyway) are:
1. What cleaning additives might be better than others and why? I woud stay away from continual use of the more aggressive ones, despite what some soaking tests might indicate.
2. What some specs really mean for judging one premix over another?
Most half-way decent premixes have additive packs that should help, but if it weren't for the 4-cycle OMP, I actually wouldn't worry about this too much based on years of experience of those who have gone before us. JASO FD should be the best in terms of judging one premix vs another, but would there be additional benefit by adding something like FP+? 'Detergent' specs on 2-stroke oil are most meaningful for 2-stroke motors, less so for daily drivers running rotaries with 4-stroke OMPs in tact. So I still tend to think for daily driving conditions, it might make sense to also add something like FP+. No proof, just following seemingly intelligent advice offered here.
Discussion of other specs like flash point, viscosity, etc, and their relevance to premix are either interesting or entertaining, depending on who's posting. I would appreciate it if we let the experts explain their reasoning on these fine points if they believe they have real relevance here or even if they just want to educate or demonstrate their expertise. Likewise, I would also appreciate any intelligent critique of any errors of interpretation I may have posted here! I'm just another poor dumbshit like most of us here trying to learn from the really smart guys.
I don't think premix questions are unsolvable, but this thread does seem to get side-tracked, doesn't it?
Some things have been solved with pretty good evidence IMHO, premix is good, pretty much any premix is better than no premix, but not many people are going to be tearing apart their engines after rigidly controlled test conditions to solve minor points about one good premix being better than another good premix. Some people say only use this exact premix, it is the only one to use, and obviously that's just plain silly.
Use of a Sohn adapter so that you can avoid 'burning' 4-cycle also seems obvious, and even has supporting evidence from lots of older rotaries that did very well with any old premix and the OMP removed. But it's a bit of a pain for most people to install and uninstall if you ever need to use the 100k engine warranty. Reasonable and well informed Mazda service departments are few and far between. But there are some out there apparently.
The only questions that seems to be relatively unresolved (for me anyway) are:
1. What cleaning additives might be better than others and why? I woud stay away from continual use of the more aggressive ones, despite what some soaking tests might indicate.
2. What some specs really mean for judging one premix over another?
Most half-way decent premixes have additive packs that should help, but if it weren't for the 4-cycle OMP, I actually wouldn't worry about this too much based on years of experience of those who have gone before us. JASO FD should be the best in terms of judging one premix vs another, but would there be additional benefit by adding something like FP+? 'Detergent' specs on 2-stroke oil are most meaningful for 2-stroke motors, less so for daily drivers running rotaries with 4-stroke OMPs in tact. So I still tend to think for daily driving conditions, it might make sense to also add something like FP+. No proof, just following seemingly intelligent advice offered here.
Discussion of other specs like flash point, viscosity, etc, and their relevance to premix are either interesting or entertaining, depending on who's posting. I would appreciate it if we let the experts explain their reasoning on these fine points if they believe they have real relevance here or even if they just want to educate or demonstrate their expertise. Likewise, I would also appreciate any intelligent critique of any errors of interpretation I may have posted here! I'm just another poor dumbshit like most of us here trying to learn from the really smart guys.
What keeps this thread going is the same thing that keeps the synthetic thread going. In the meantime I'll just stick to this post https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=968
02-13-2010, 09:24 PM
#2362
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I would not use premix because the line is too fine between lubrication and total disaster. I remember 2 stroke motorbikes and all their problems, and to be effective the RX would be belching out white smoke, otherwise pointless in my opinion.
Yes, I agree premix is better than no premix and the guy that came up with the sohn is brilliant.
What keeps this thread going is the same thing that keeps the synthetic thread going. In the meantime I'll just stick to this post https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=968
What keeps this thread going is the same thing that keeps the synthetic thread going. In the meantime I'll just stick to this post https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=968
02-13-2010, 09:30 PM
#2363
huh.
ok.
02-13-2010, 09:57 PM
#2364
Super Moderator
Yes, I agree premix is better than no premix and the guy that came up with the sohn is brilliant.
What keeps this thread going is the same thing that keeps the synthetic thread going. In the meantime I'll just stick to this post https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=968
What keeps this thread going is the same thing that keeps the synthetic thread going. In the meantime I'll just stick to this post https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=968
I have a bit of a problem making up 'brews', just add this and that to your fuel...NO Don't like it...
What are we trying to do Lubricate? or Clean?
Two totally different procedures or tasks IMO.
How can you successfully do BOTH at the same time....IMO you can't.
K.I.S.S
02-13-2010, 10:12 PM
#2365
Registered
MMMmm..
I have a bit of a problem making up 'brews', just add this and that to your fuel...NO Don't like it...
What are we trying to do Lubricate? or Clean?
Two totally different procedures or tasks IMO.
How can you successfully do BOTH at the same time....IMO you can't.
K.I.S.S
I have a bit of a problem making up 'brews', just add this and that to your fuel...NO Don't like it...
What are we trying to do Lubricate? or Clean?
Two totally different procedures or tasks IMO.
How can you successfully do BOTH at the same time....IMO you can't.
K.I.S.S
For example: "Saber Professional is formulated with high-temperature detergent additives to help prevent hard carbon deposits from forming in these hot-operating motors."
What do you make of the concept of 'lubricious cleaners' that is thrown around here a lot? What about this cyclohexanone that's supposed to emulsify carbon into a graphite lubricant?
02-13-2010, 10:29 PM
#2366
Super Moderator
I really don't believe you can completely eliminate carbon build up in a rotary with just pre-mix, I believe (like to think) a good pre-mix lubricates (#1 requirement) and minimizes carbon/soot build up (helps), from the look of my plugs after 20K (KMS) with ASP the deposits left behind appeared quite normal and softish to remove, I could remove/scrape off most with my finger nail.
But as I said I pre-mix for Lubrication First..
Cyclohexanone sounds like a Med!!
Cyclohexanone is a compound of ketone family. It is a clear oily liquid with an acetone like odor; slightly soluble in water but completely miscible with common solvents. It is used as an industrial solvent and activator in oxidation reactions. It is used in the production of adipic acid, cyclohexanone resins, cyclohexanone oxime, caprolactam and nylon 6. Cyclohexanone having two alpha-carbons in the ring provides four alpha-hydrogens which can be substituted depending on the reaction conditions with remaining six hydrogens unreact.
I wonder what it does to other components and metal's...sounds aggressive..
But as I said I pre-mix for Lubrication First..
Cyclohexanone sounds like a Med!!
Cyclohexanone is a compound of ketone family. It is a clear oily liquid with an acetone like odor; slightly soluble in water but completely miscible with common solvents. It is used as an industrial solvent and activator in oxidation reactions. It is used in the production of adipic acid, cyclohexanone resins, cyclohexanone oxime, caprolactam and nylon 6. Cyclohexanone having two alpha-carbons in the ring provides four alpha-hydrogens which can be substituted depending on the reaction conditions with remaining six hydrogens unreact.
I wonder what it does to other components and metal's...sounds aggressive..
02-13-2010, 10:49 PM
#2367
Registered
I really don't believe you can completely eliminate carbon build up in a rotary with just pre-mix, I believe (like to think) a good pre-mix lubricates (#1 requirement) and minimizes carbon/soot build up (helps), from the look of my plugs after 20K (KMS) with ASP the deposits left behind appeared quite normal and softish to remove, I could remove/scrape off most with my finger nail.
But as I said I pre-mix for Lubrication First..
Cyclohexanone sounds like a Med!!
Cyclohexanone is a compound of ketone family. It is a clear oily liquid with an acetone like odor; slightly soluble in water but completely miscible with common solvents. It is used as an industrial solvent and activator in oxidation reactions. It is used in the production of adipic acid, cyclohexanone resins, cyclohexanone oxime, caprolactam and nylon 6. Cyclohexanone having two alpha-carbons in the ring provides four alpha-hydrogens which can be substituted depending on the reaction conditions with remaining six hydrogens unreact.
I wonder what it does to other components and metal's...sounds aggressive..
But as I said I pre-mix for Lubrication First..
Cyclohexanone sounds like a Med!!
Cyclohexanone is a compound of ketone family. It is a clear oily liquid with an acetone like odor; slightly soluble in water but completely miscible with common solvents. It is used as an industrial solvent and activator in oxidation reactions. It is used in the production of adipic acid, cyclohexanone resins, cyclohexanone oxime, caprolactam and nylon 6. Cyclohexanone having two alpha-carbons in the ring provides four alpha-hydrogens which can be substituted depending on the reaction conditions with remaining six hydrogens unreact.
I wonder what it does to other components and metal's...sounds aggressive..
02-13-2010, 10:55 PM
#2368
wankel my wanker
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MMMmm..
I have a bit of a problem making up 'brews', just add this and that to your fuel...NO Don't like it...
What are we trying to do Lubricate? or Clean?
Two totally different procedures or tasks IMO.
How can you successfully do BOTH at the same time....IMO you can't.
K.I.S.S
I have a bit of a problem making up 'brews', just add this and that to your fuel...NO Don't like it...
What are we trying to do Lubricate? or Clean?
Two totally different procedures or tasks IMO.
How can you successfully do BOTH at the same time....IMO you can't.
K.I.S.S
02-14-2010, 01:21 AM
#2369
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nothing has been "proved" on how great premix works in Rotaries! It's all assumptions or placebo effect. Unless someone tests with/without and strips down the engines in many examples will any quantitative assessment be worthwhile, otherwise everything based on feel good factor. All I can say is, working in the oil distribution business, a LOT hype and marketing goes into selling this gunk to you, most of it is way exaggerated for legitimate commercial effect. The only quantifiable aspects are legislative for pollution control, extended drain intervals, fuel economy lighter oils etc...the rest of the stuff is all "snake oil" and pretty worthless in my opinion, I wouldn't waste my money on it. The lubrication, detergents extreme temperature additives are already in the oils, even the base low ash mineral oils are way advanced compared with just 10 years ago, and who do you know still runs a 2 stroke engine? Sorry to burst your bubble, but the truth is out there 
02-14-2010, 01:30 AM
#2370
Metatron
iTrader: (1)
Au contraire.....
Racing beat has done extensive research, finding both optimum rates for longevity, and some surprising resuilts around power production.
You don't know 'what you don't know'......
S
Racing beat has done extensive research, finding both optimum rates for longevity, and some surprising resuilts around power production.
You don't know 'what you don't know'......
S
02-14-2010, 01:53 AM
#2371
Why do all the aviation guys premix their rotaries religiously?
Theres more to it. Time will tell. You might as well stop premixing. I won't.
WANKEL AG
Fuel, unleaded gasoline / Mogas (ROZ 92) or 1:80-mixture (premix). Lubrication, standart-2-stroke-oil (API-TC)
Aircraft - Rotary Engine Technologies.
unleaded gasoline / Mogas (ROZ 92) or 100LL 1:80-mixture (premix). Lubrication ... AIRCRAFT WITH WANKEL ENGINE
Theres more to it. Time will tell. You might as well stop premixing. I won't.
WANKEL AG
Fuel, unleaded gasoline / Mogas (ROZ 92) or 1:80-mixture (premix). Lubrication, standart-2-stroke-oil (API-TC)
Aircraft - Rotary Engine Technologies.
unleaded gasoline / Mogas (ROZ 92) or 100LL 1:80-mixture (premix). Lubrication ... AIRCRAFT WITH WANKEL ENGINE
02-14-2010, 05:21 AM
#2372
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Au contraire??......gimme a break buddy! and Racing Beat is a philanthropic organisation?
I know what I know, what I don't know is what everyone else knows.
I know what I know, what I don't know is what everyone else knows.
02-14-2010, 06:40 AM
#2373
Registered
nothing has been "proved" on how great premix works in Rotaries! It's all assumptions or placebo effect. Unless someone tests with/without and strips down the engines in many examples will any quantitative assessment be worthwhile, otherwise everything based on feel good factor. ...
Compared to the use of 4-stroke factory oil metering it absolutely will help. It's still not perfect but it's far superior to the factory system. Having torn down many engines that were running premix as well as being a user of it since 1999 I've seen the differences between the two. It seems to me that 2-stroke premix only RE's last gobs longer as well as have substantially less carbon buildup on the rotors compared to factory.
So why do you think Mazda added the third oil injector on the 2009+ Renesis? They're part of the secret conspiracy too?
Last edited by robrecht; 02-14-2010 at 07:01 AM.
02-14-2010, 07:23 AM
#2374
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Yes, that's been done, not just for Renesis, but for years before that with older rotaries. See, eg, in this very thread:
But if you believe that the super-advanced Renesis solved the problem of carbon (instead of exacerbated it), I guess that wouldn't matter to you.
So why do you think Mazda added the third oil injector on the 2009+ Renesis? They're part of the secret conspiracy too?
But if you believe that the super-advanced Renesis solved the problem of carbon (instead of exacerbated it), I guess that wouldn't matter to you.
So why do you think Mazda added the third oil injector on the 2009+ Renesis? They're part of the secret conspiracy too?
Mazda tells me it was to "extend" the life of the rotor tips. If premix was so great, you would have thought they would adopt this great option that everyone raves about here?
02-14-2010, 07:43 AM
#2375
Registered
With respect to your opinion that the Renesis solved the carbon build-up problem in rotaries, we also have a member here who works in the US Mazda facility for rebuilding engines, and he attests to the main problem (80% of the time) being carbon build-up.
Take a look at this rebuilders opinion also:
Just so that everyone understands: Typical engine failures of an RX8 are not caused by oil starvation, bearing wear or anything of that nature. RX8s do not typically have engines fail by 50k (Even 04-05s). I would guess under 100k to be common (And that's an educated guess since we've probably built more than anyone outside of Mazda's reman program. Having said all that, apex seal, side seal and spring wear with excessive carbon buid-up are the main culprits that stop someone from driving their RX8 with enough concern to take it to the dealer, resulting in an engine replacement.
Last edited by robrecht; 02-14-2010 at 08:12 AM.