Vlaze

iTrader: (14)

I wasn't referring to the engine problems in general, I was referring to your case of 3 engine replacements. There are a lot of models that have trouble in general for a first or second year production car. So far (key word, so far) I haven't seen '06 and up have the trouble all the '04's and '05's have overall.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

oh come on now, the EMOP dont need all that extra oil pressure to work :P

Its a complete redesign, but its main purpose is still "to drip" oil into the rotor chambers ... so I dont really see why they have to double oil pressure just for that super "drippin'" action.

they double it so the engine gets more oil more often and they're using S2 as a test bed for the upcoming 16x

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

oh, okay. There have been a few 06's though around here and I bet as mileage stacks up there will be more.

ASH8

You want me to go on with the added Conversion costs...

New Dash cluster guage with 3 Led temp lights which is tied into the new PCM.
New Front Engine Housing Cover to accommodate the OCV (Oil Control Valve) for EMOP's.
New Oil filter location associated with the new Housing.
New High Pressure OIL Pump which supplies oil for the EMOP (Oil Chambers).
Engine Out to do all this.

Plus removing and blocking the existing Oil Pressure Regulator in Rear Iron.
New oil Pressure Switches.
What about the extra 2 oil nozzles, new Rotor Housings?, or drill into existing ones to fit oil nozzles.

As I said unfortunately the task is enormous and cost prohibitive, you really should replace the complete engine, but then you have all the other costs, electrical and EMOP system, wiring..

Far cheaper to trade car in for the 09.

ASH8

If you check out the design of the new system, the two EMOP's themselves do not Pump, there are NO Internal Pumping Mechanisms inside, they are a large solenoid with a series of plungers that open when the solenoid is activated by positive (12 Volt) current, magnetic action.

It is the Engines OIL Pump that supples the oil all the way to the newer Nozzle design.

The two EMOP's, OCV, and piping is located on top of the engine.

Whether it "Drips" or "drips faster" than the previous system, I do not know...do You?

The main purpose of their MOP systems over the years is to lubricate the Apex and Corner Seals, not to drown the Rotor with engine oil...that is what Pre-Mix is for..

I use about 200 mils (just under a cup) of oil every 1000 KMS or so, (600 miles).

The EMOP's do no Pumping, just two separate chambers that distributes oil to 4 and 2 oil nozzles.

There is constant "High" oil pressure at the two chambers with oil returns that takes the circulated oil back into the sump to complete the circuit.

When you turn the ignition OFF, after about 2 seconds you hear the EMOP solenoids open for another 1.5 seconds which allows oil into the rotor housings ready for next engine start up.

So IMO yes, the main reason for the Higher Pressure Oil Pump is for the new Metering System.

With more than likely higher OP for engine internals, which is only the eccentric shaft, rotors and stationary gears.

It obviously makes sense that Mazda had to increase OP to supply the new Metering System.

StealthTL

iTrader: (1)

When you turn the ignition OFF, after about 2 seconds you hear the EMOP solenoids open for another 1.5 seconds which allows oil into the rotor housings ready for next engine start up.

So if the engine ain't running, and the oil pump ain't moving, where does the pressure to post-lubricate come from?

From the EMOP pump.

Case closed.

ASH8

Oil pressure is held in the system, between the OCV and "Pump" chambers"
PCM supply power to two Solenoid's, Solenoid Opens and Supplies oil to Nozzles.

Vlaze

iTrader: (14)

This is what happens when you get too far ahead of yourself. I said OMP conversion, or rather more technically, referring to the OMP adapter. Not referring to an '09 engine replacement.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Hmm, so I understand the EMOP part.

hmm, but if its just for EMOP, is doubling the oil pressure really necessary ?

but either way, higher pressure is good.

ASH8

Yeah, I don't know either mate..

ayrton012

Olddragger wrote this:

If the pressure is such low at 180F, where will be at 212F?
We need more datas from xxw-20 users with gauges.

rotaryPilot

Well 9 out of 10 housings that our local rotary shop has inspected (due to rebuild) had signs of wear at the SIDE of the housing and NOT at the center !

I guess that the only logical conclusion is that the center of the apex seal which is not lubricated properly is getting worn and does not contact the center of the housing. So the apex seals after some miles contact the side of the housing and not the center.

rotaryPilot

We in Greece use the Mazda Recommendation 5W-30 and we still have engine failures. Despite the engine failures Mazda did not give us the 100K warranty. We only have the 60K warranty.

So better to have a 5w-20 recommendation and 100K than 5W-30 and 60k warranty. In both cases you have engine failures but you are in trouble when you have 60k warranty.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Engines fail all the time.

Its just that the US Market is "big enough plus the failure rates are bad enough" that it got Mazda's attention ... the 100K warranty is more like a way to get that trust back from the customer than "doing it cuz we know we fuxked up"

Anyway, 5w30 is not that great for this engine(due to a lot of factors), thats why I always tell people to use at least 40 weight oil. but hey I mean 30 weight oil is better than 20 weight oil any day, right ? (for me)

rled

This is an interesting motor oil article.
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthr...light=oil+life

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

oh man, wtf ?

that crap again ?

Vlaze

iTrader: (14)

Um....not to burst your bubble but that was what this whole thread was on, and was mentioned on the first post.

Nonetheless it's not crap, because it opened some eyes and truth to the effects of oil on the cars especially with key point of the oil having the most effect on vehicles during start up contrast to driving temps. While some still want to use very heavy weight racing type oils in their car, a lot of us now are likely to switch to 0w-30 or 0w-40 oil which for the Rx8 is the biggest benefit from the article. Also is the point of using an OMP adapter to have clean oil going to the seals which would outside of this article, benefit those with an Rx8 the most more than just the different oil weights.

I do want to point out something no one else highlighted from the article. The author also mentioned as the engine wore on that he saw benefits switching to thinner oils due to the wearing of the engine which made it more restrictive for proper flow. The start up weight (0w, 5w, 10w, etc) shouldn't change as mentioned, that only has to do with start up viscosity when all is cold. But I doubt I'd ever go to 50w, that's overkill IMO. 0-30w (or 5-30w), perhaps 0-40w (or 5w-40) tops. I'm more concerned with the engine getting sufficient oil which is what I believe is 90% of the problem and not the selection of the oil.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

my point was :

he spent so much time to write that and at the end is what ? follow manufacture's recommendation.

Thats a huge failed right there (In my opinion it is.)

it has some useful information, but its not that different from all the books and sources that I've read.

Vlaze

iTrader: (14)

With the Rx8, following it especially for the US, can be an exception with the 5w-20. And I still find him suggesting there is no weight too thin for cold start ups, thus complimenting a 0w more than anything. That along the fact most worry about the operating effect of oil when driving and not the initial start up. This is why everyone is raving on about the heavier weights which he stated have very little difference at the high temperatures.

So I think this is not a fail IMO and shows a lot of misconceptions that a lot of people still have regarding it. Especially with some people still claiming the 5w-20 is what killed the engines. I disagree as I think any oil would be fine in these engines theoretically if they are properly lubricating the engine. The fact is, they're not sufficiently getting enough oil regardless of what weight you chose. Is why a lot of us are with the notion it's not oil weight that kills these engines, it's the insufficient amount of oil being used to lubricate the seals. But, to each their own.

rotarygod

He mentions that rotary users should use the manufacturers recommendations as the rotary has unique oil requirements than piston engines due to the need to not only lubricate bearings but also lubricate gears, cool pistons, and burn off cleanly. He most certainly doesn't use the recommended oil weight in any of his cars. He wrote the article to pretty much deal with oil in most engines and unfortunately most does not mean rotaries.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

This is old news already.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

Pistons? We don't got no stinking pistons!

Vlaze

iTrader: (14)

I agree he stated you do not have to use what's in the manual (of course based on his cars and fellow piston designed ones). However I'm seeing nothing in there in regards to a rotary, so can you link that if you saw such? Even doing a "find" function reveals nothing. So one can't say necessarily he said to follow it from what I've read.

While rotaries are different, it's the same concept with any engine regardless in the aspect of start-up and using thin weight oil for the situation.

As we've all discussed there is a trade-off to using thin or thick weight oils. With thinner oils you have better flow thus better cooling for the engine and yet too thin results in improper lubrication. With thicker weights you have more pressure and thus less flow with the addition of some more lubrication possibly depending how thick. However a good oil selection not only flows well at an ideal pressure but also lubricates the parts whereas too thick that results in a high pressure will not flow sufficiently and thus, not lubricate properly. The real argument is what's the best operating weight oil to use finding the median line.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

From an OEM perpective there are several things in-play at the same time and those dynamics are what are used to determine the engine's specs/design.

ASH8

Frankly,
I do not give a stuff WHAT DR Haas has to say about engine oil, I have seen enough evidence that the "lighter" weight oils do not give enough protection at high temperatures, you need a heavier weight oil, a 10 15 or even 20W.

I will repeat, when we could only get 20W50 oils in the 1970's, all the rotaries pulled down 10A's 12A's and 13B at the Mazda dealer I worked for never had wear on the bearings. Rotors ,stationary gear bearings, eccentric shafts were always reused.

I would rarely sell bearings, or supply them to my service department.

Tolerances on the RENESIS are no different to 30 years ago, the number of failed bearings IMO is attributed to engine oil, NOT Oil pressure., as the RENESIS 1 has the EXACT same oil pump and EXACT SAME oil pressure relief valve as the FC RX-7 of 20 years ago.