Good technical discussion about Engine Oils
#352
ThEy MaDe Me Do It
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Those charts are nice OD, that's what we need more of there.
Personally I use a synthetic Ky jelly, the cooling version, takes away some heat while the engine runs hard.
Personally I use a synthetic Ky jelly, the cooling version, takes away some heat while the engine runs hard.
#354
Sesame seed oil. Charles, relax/ I realize that. I realize you are being serious vendor, but step back - all I'm just saying is that if oil was the only problem the rotary had, and startup wear because of oil in particular, then life would be good and we'd have no engine failures. Unfortunately that not the case.
What Mazda has done in summary over the last 40 yrs, is bring the output levels of the rotary to semi-respectable current NA output levels, but in exchange, the overall reliability has improved some percentage, but nothing to write home about. Failures regularly occur and there are too many variables going on in the mix to be able to address blame conclusively, short of obtaining Mazda numbers (which I would dearly love to have access to!). Oil may be certainly a part of the issue, but if the holy grail 'best for startup' oil existed, Mazda hasn't found it...regardless of their recommendations if current failures are any example.
Beyond and in contest to that, I think we 'down in the ditches' actual car owners have some obligation to reveal our "How we saved the rotary engine from self destruct due to our oil", but the results are variable, and show me proof. Rotary oil recommendations appear still - to be a black art, I mean at least reading this thread you would think so as everyone has a unique take on it seemingly.
What Mazda has done in summary over the last 40 yrs, is bring the output levels of the rotary to semi-respectable current NA output levels, but in exchange, the overall reliability has improved some percentage, but nothing to write home about. Failures regularly occur and there are too many variables going on in the mix to be able to address blame conclusively, short of obtaining Mazda numbers (which I would dearly love to have access to!). Oil may be certainly a part of the issue, but if the holy grail 'best for startup' oil existed, Mazda hasn't found it...regardless of their recommendations if current failures are any example.
Beyond and in contest to that, I think we 'down in the ditches' actual car owners have some obligation to reveal our "How we saved the rotary engine from self destruct due to our oil", but the results are variable, and show me proof. Rotary oil recommendations appear still - to be a black art, I mean at least reading this thread you would think so as everyone has a unique take on it seemingly.
#355
ThEy MaDe Me Do It
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Never heard of microlon, but did a quick search and found this
www.microlon.com and went to benefits page, but didn't read it yet.
www.microlon.com and went to benefits page, but didn't read it yet.
#357
ThEy MaDe Me Do It
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I tried to call to see if maybe they did our engines for a test, but no one was there. I read some pages of it, and they said they could give the oil test and other findings if you ask for them. Maybe they can test our engines and see if that resolves anything, but until they do or there is more info idk.
#358
Super Moderator
Sesame seed oil. Charles, relax/ I realize that. I realize you are being serious vendor, but step back - all I'm just saying is that if oil was the only problem the rotary had, and startup wear because of oil in particular, then life would be good and we'd have no engine failures. Unfortunately that not the case.
What Mazda has done in summary over the last 40 yrs, is bring the output levels of the rotary to semi-respectable current NA output levels, but in exchange, the overall reliability has improved some percentage, but nothing to write home about. Failures regularly occur and there are too many variables going on in the mix to be able to address blame conclusively, short of obtaining Mazda numbers (which I would dearly love to have access to!). Oil may be certainly a part of the issue, but if the holy grail 'best for startup' oil existed, Mazda hasn't found it...regardless of their recommendations if current failures are any example.
Beyond and in contest to that, I think we 'down in the ditches' actual car owners have some obligation to reveal our "How we saved the rotary engine from self destruct due to our oil", but the results are variable, and show me proof. Rotary oil recommendations appear still - to be a black art, I mean at least reading this thread you would think so as everyone has a unique take on it seemingly.
What Mazda has done in summary over the last 40 yrs, is bring the output levels of the rotary to semi-respectable current NA output levels, but in exchange, the overall reliability has improved some percentage, but nothing to write home about. Failures regularly occur and there are too many variables going on in the mix to be able to address blame conclusively, short of obtaining Mazda numbers (which I would dearly love to have access to!). Oil may be certainly a part of the issue, but if the holy grail 'best for startup' oil existed, Mazda hasn't found it...regardless of their recommendations if current failures are any example.
Beyond and in contest to that, I think we 'down in the ditches' actual car owners have some obligation to reveal our "How we saved the rotary engine from self destruct due to our oil", but the results are variable, and show me proof. Rotary oil recommendations appear still - to be a black art, I mean at least reading this thread you would think so as everyone has a unique take on it seemingly.
As far as Oil Grades goes outside of the US and parts of Europe Mazda still has the "old style" of reference diagram suggesting the OIL Grade that an RX-8 owner can use depending on their Climate, and you see a very wide range of oils one can use.
IMO the biggest issue with any Rotary (and this has not changed in 40 years) is Carbon build up and the associated problems happening because of it, like Apex, Side and Corner Seals/Springs sticking or locked.
Next is Apex Seal Wear, I thought by now Mazda would know that the middle of the Apex Seal needs oil as a lubricant since "direct oil injecting" in past RX-7's the middle of the seal has always been covered with an oil film, this should be addressed with their new EMOP system design.
Why this was not done on the first Series RENESIS I do not know.
Next is Owner maintenance and or lack of, not renewing Engine Oil/Filter, Not Topping Off Oil and Not using the Rotary in a way that helps to prevent Carbon deposits by revving the engine above 5000 RPM regularly (when hot).
Nannying any Rotary will kill it.
Last edited by ASH8; 08-03-2009 at 10:04 PM.
#359
Super Moderator
Well, I seem to interpret a bit of camaraderie in your post (which I wholly appreciate) and would say that the earliest issues identified by we "in the trenches" have been low OMP volumes and atrociously HUGE side seal gaps. Perhaps you are now looking to the next batch of indentifiable issues and I missed that in all the various discussions present in this thread. As for me being serious....... have you seen the latest BHR team videos?
Not doubting this area is extremely important, even critical, then if it was a HUGE problem one would have thought MMC would have rectified it.
It appears there is no change in Series II Renny's, in fact as I have posted before ALL of the internals rotor parts are still the same....by Part Numbers., and that is all the proof I need.
Any idea's why, mate...
#360
Well, ASH, I guess we first have to compare observations; are you to understand that Mazda's specs for side seal gap in the Renny are .002"-.006", with a max allowable of .016"? Have you been seeing gaps in the .025"+ range during teardowns? Have these engines also had otherwise normal wear?
If so, would you conclude, as I do, that Mazda allows awfully loose tolerances from the factory when compared to the specs in the manual?
If so, would you conclude, as I do, that Mazda allows awfully loose tolerances from the factory when compared to the specs in the manual?
#361
Super Moderator
Well, ASH, I guess we first have to compare observations; are you to understand that Mazda's specs for side seal gap in the Renny are .002"-.006", with a max allowable of .016"? Have you been seeing gaps in the .025"+ range during teardowns? Have these engines also had otherwise normal wear?
If so, would you conclude, as I do, that Mazda allows awfully loose tolerances from the factory when compared to the specs in the manual?
If so, would you conclude, as I do, that Mazda allows awfully loose tolerances from the factory when compared to the specs in the manual?
AFAIK, a Dealer in Queensland (about 8000 miles from me) may be doing Remans for Mazda Australia ( unconfirmed source ).
So yes, I may just inquire with a few Mazda Dealer techs I know and see what I can find out...get back on that one.
But yep, that is a 50% increase in allowable SS gaps?, ...
Just throw this out there, is it possible, I say possible, the Side Seal is moving back and forth at all and therefore maybe wearing a wider hole or gap???
Ash.
#362
I haven't seen the expected shiny surfaces that would indicate longitudinal motion of the side seals in the grooves but I haven't been on particular lookout for it, either. Pretty much extreme wobble of the apexes and large side seal gaps is all.
#363
The issue of engine failure seals with apex or side seals correct? Those seals are protected via lubrication which is applied via the OMP. If the OMP doesn't inject the required amount of oil into the engine and or people are not premixing to add another lubrication source then the engine is going to fail regardless of what oil you are using.
The issue I am speaking about here deals directly with bearing wear and crankcase lubrication. I'm prepared to discuss OMP lubrication and various 2 cycle applications if you want me to start another thread.
You are trying to take two different concepts and make them one of the same. Crankcase lubrication and OMP injection are two totally different subjects with the rotary and require their own fixes.
Sadly at this point there are far too many factors to point the fingers at one area and say X is to blame for engine failures.
If you want to use 20w-50 then go for it! My goal was to simply get people thinking a different way and understand that the Mazda factory suggestions are not as wrong as we might have thought.
The second aspect was to show people that if you are going to use a 30 weight or whatever then you should try and use a 0w or a 5w at the very most to ensure the best starting protection.
I made the mistake of thinking a 5w-30 was thinner than a 10w-30 when they both have the same viscosity at operating temperature. I've been concerned about engine wear at operating temperature and not even realizing I might be doing more damage at startup.
In the end, oil is a personal choice. It's your car and I'm not going to tell anybody what they should and shouldn't be doing. I instead just put out the information and let everyone else make up their mind.
#364
Super Moderator
I just thought that may be this could happen, also, do you recall the thread of a Renny opened up (in Greece, for memory) which had only done about 5281 miles, suspect poor compression.
The Doctor (Mechanic) said he could only find a broken (in two) Side Seal Spring!, not a seal but a spring, in my time not that common.
We used to renew them because they were cheap, and other reasons.
Could the movement of the SS cause the spring to wear through?
BTW, I also remember years ago we used to Ream out the Corner Seals ('A' Rotaries Only) and put in OS Corner Seals either 0.2 or 0.03 OS, my Dealer had a reaming Tool and Jig to preform the task.
Last edited by ASH8; 08-03-2009 at 11:14 PM.
#365
Out of NYC
iTrader: (1)
Nycgps, I appreciate your efforts in contributing to the discussion but again, here are the issues I have with your argument.
The issue of engine failure seals with apex or side seals correct? Those seals are protected via lubrication which is applied via the OMP. If the OMP doesn't inject the required amount of oil into the engine and or people are not premixing to add another lubrication source then the engine is going to fail regardless of what oil you are using.
The issue I am speaking about here deals directly with bearing wear and crankcase lubrication. I'm prepared to discuss OMP lubrication and various 2 cycle applications if you want me to start another thread.
You are trying to take two different concepts and make them one of the same. Crankcase lubrication and OMP injection are two totally different subjects with the rotary and require their own fixes.
Sadly at this point there are far too many factors to point the fingers at one area and say X is to blame for engine failures.
If you want to use 20w-50 then go for it! My goal was to simply get people thinking a different way and understand that the Mazda factory suggestions are not as wrong as we might have thought.
The second aspect was to show people that if you are going to use a 30 weight or whatever then you should try and use a 0w or a 5w at the very most to ensure the best starting protection.
I made the mistake of thinking a 5w-30 was thinner than a 10w-30 when they both have the same viscosity at operating temperature. I've been concerned about engine wear at operating temperature and not even realizing I might be doing more damage at startup.
In the end, oil is a personal choice. It's your car and I'm not going to tell anybody what they should and shouldn't be doing. I instead just put out the information and let everyone else make up their mind.
The issue of engine failure seals with apex or side seals correct? Those seals are protected via lubrication which is applied via the OMP. If the OMP doesn't inject the required amount of oil into the engine and or people are not premixing to add another lubrication source then the engine is going to fail regardless of what oil you are using.
The issue I am speaking about here deals directly with bearing wear and crankcase lubrication. I'm prepared to discuss OMP lubrication and various 2 cycle applications if you want me to start another thread.
You are trying to take two different concepts and make them one of the same. Crankcase lubrication and OMP injection are two totally different subjects with the rotary and require their own fixes.
Sadly at this point there are far too many factors to point the fingers at one area and say X is to blame for engine failures.
If you want to use 20w-50 then go for it! My goal was to simply get people thinking a different way and understand that the Mazda factory suggestions are not as wrong as we might have thought.
The second aspect was to show people that if you are going to use a 30 weight or whatever then you should try and use a 0w or a 5w at the very most to ensure the best starting protection.
I made the mistake of thinking a 5w-30 was thinner than a 10w-30 when they both have the same viscosity at operating temperature. I've been concerned about engine wear at operating temperature and not even realizing I might be doing more damage at startup.
In the end, oil is a personal choice. It's your car and I'm not going to tell anybody what they should and shouldn't be doing. I instead just put out the information and let everyone else make up their mind.
I was talking about engine oil weight might effect the life of the bearings/gears. I wasnt talking about OMP and its related issues.
We all agreed that OMP design for S1 Renesis suck ***.
sorry I didnt make myself clear b4.
Yes, oil is a personal choice
but my opinion is, Mazda is a business, they need every mpg they can, we're not talking about 1-2 cars. talking about millions of cars combine. CAFE baby ! not to mention, I dont really believe "an oil weight that might not even work well with a low performance engine like Honda FIT will be good enough for High performance engines like 13B-MSP"
Last edited by nycgps; 08-04-2009 at 12:09 AM.
#366
but my opinion is, Mazda is a business, they need every mpg they can, we're not talking about 1-2 cars. talking about millions of cars combine. CAFE baby ! not to mention, I dont really believe "an oil weight that might not even work well with a low performance engine like Honda FIT will be good enough for High performance engines like 13B-MSP"
The Honda Fit and the RX8 have one important thing in common. Almost all of the owners are using them for normal driving activity and a sizable percentage (myself included) use the RX8 for daily driving applications. Both motors are small displacement.
The Fit's L15A7 is already being slated to be used in SCCA racing applications.
The point is that your oil requirements are going to be based off of the type of usage of your RX8. I know we all like to pretend we are living the life of Toyko Drift but it's just not happening. 99% of the people on this board or RX8 owners in general are doing NOTHING that this motor has not been designed to handle.
Unless your RX8 is seeing multiple track sessions per month or otherwise racing in track situations where oil temperatures are extreme then you don't require any special weighted oil. If you are seeing extreme temperatures then you have a cooling problem, not a lubrication problem. Changing the oil weight won't fix cooling problems.
Where the difference between say the Fit and the RX8 comes into play is the oiling system itself. Using a higher quality synthetic would be my advice with the RX8 because almost no one drains the coolers which means 2 to 3 quarts of dirty oil remains in the engine. The breakdown of additive packages and barrier protections would concern me more in that circumstance.
The same thinking that is occuring here is the same as you see with clutch purchases. Many buyers think they are so hard on their car that they need a stage 100 disc to handle all that punishment. The truth is they don't need anything more than a basic upgrade.
#367
Actually, while we're on the subject of the OMP - I'm assuming that it just opens for a set duration depending on the engine load/rpms (Mines in the bin, so I might be wrong), but if so, far less of a 20w-50 oil is going to be injected especially when the engine is warming up, than that of an equivalent 0w-20/30/40 oil for the same opening duration...
Bingo, our oil cooler is 22"x18"....
At the end of the day, if you're having to run 50-60 weight oils because the oil temperatures on your car are so high, the oil is probably rapidly breaking down through overheating anyway.
..racing in track situations where oil temperatures are extreme then you don't require any special weighted oil. If you are seeing extreme temperatures then you have a cooling problem..
At the end of the day, if you're having to run 50-60 weight oils because the oil temperatures on your car are so high, the oil is probably rapidly breaking down through overheating anyway.
Last edited by PhillipM; 08-04-2009 at 02:40 AM.
#368
Ayrton Senna Forever
All of you forget about that Mazda Japan prefers 0w-30 for the Renesis now (attached). As AEHaas stated, you can't find better than 0w for cold start, and use the lowest warm side index (30) which meets the factory reference pressure even at the hottest possible oil temp in the average traffic situations.
The Mazda needed 5 years to recognize the advantage of the 0w and the full syn oil in the Renesis.
The Mazda needed 5 years to recognize the advantage of the 0w and the full syn oil in the Renesis.
#369
Ayrton Senna Forever
Oil pump's rotors:
FC NA 1985- : N326-14-140
FC Turbo 1985-: N318-14-140
FC NA 1989-: N318-14-140
According to EPC II. catalog.
#370
Actually, while we're on the subject of the OMP - I'm assuming that it just opens for a set duration depending on the engine load/rpms (Mines in the bin, so I might be wrong), but if so, far less of a 20w-50 oil is going to be injected especially when the engine is warming up, than that of an equivalent 0w-20/30/40 oil for the same opening duration...
The OMP system is guided by RPM vs. calculated load. There are also tables for a throttle based OMP amount as well when the throttle position goes above 70.
All of you forget about that Mazda Japan prefers 0w-30 for the Renesis now (attached). As AEHaas stated, you can't find better than 0w for cold start, and use the lowest warm side index (30) which meets the factory reference pressure even at the hottest possible oil temp in the average traffic situations.
The Mazda needed 5 years to recognize the advantage of the 0w and the full syn oil in the Renesis.
The Mazda needed 5 years to recognize the advantage of the 0w and the full syn oil in the Renesis.
It would sell better as an 18-20 mpg car rather than a 16-18 mpg. Most vehicles don't get their rated MPG amount as it stands but that's another topic.
Mazda also could sell a synthetic oil because they would have the ability to choose which synthetic is marketed. With so many of them out there and there being wide differences it would be hard to suggest it with the rotary.
There are clear compromises that have been made because of government regulations.
#371
Super Moderator
The FC NA RX-7 of any year does not have the Turbo's Oil Pump or Rotors.
If you have the "Mazda" EPC Please Print Screen your evidence and post.
Last edited by ASH8; 08-04-2009 at 04:38 AM.
#372
Ayrton Senna Forever
I forgot about the thing that europe got only the turbo FC after 1989.
#373
Ayrton Senna Forever
Mazda also could sell a synthetic oil because they would have the ability to choose which synthetic is marketed. With so many of them out there and there being wide differences it would be hard to suggest it with the rotary.
There are clear compromises that have been made because of government regulations.
There are clear compromises that have been made because of government regulations.
And now they say use full syn (not semi) because it keeps clean the engine (it's an official reason from them for using it). And they also prefer 0w, just for the Renesis, as they labeled it on the oil can.
MOP: When the engine cold, as the MOP injects the oil to the chamber, I think a thicker 10w-20w oil can't make so quickly a suefficient oil layer on the wall under starting, as the 0w does.
#374
Out of NYC
iTrader: (1)
You don't? Are you racing your RX8 every weekend?
The Honda Fit and the RX8 have one important thing in common. Almost all of the owners are using them for normal driving activity and a sizable percentage (myself included) use the RX8 for daily driving applications. Both motors are small displacement.
The Fit's L15A7 is already being slated to be used in SCCA racing applications.
The Honda Fit and the RX8 have one important thing in common. Almost all of the owners are using them for normal driving activity and a sizable percentage (myself included) use the RX8 for daily driving applications. Both motors are small displacement.
The Fit's L15A7 is already being slated to be used in SCCA racing applications.
NOT TO MENTION, even I dont use my FIT to race, I still dont believe in 5w20. I use 5w30 for it, mobil1, cuz its cheap (6 qt for what 20 bux, thats with M1 filter too, cant beat that). When its done Im going to use 5w or 10w40.
The point is that your oil requirements are going to be based off of the type of usage of your RX8. I know we all like to pretend we are living the life of Toyko Drift but it's just not happening. 99% of the people on this board or RX8 owners in general are doing NOTHING that this motor has not been designed to handle.
Unless your RX8 is seeing multiple track sessions per month or otherwise racing in track situations where oil temperatures are extreme then you don't require any special weighted oil. If you are seeing extreme temperatures then you have a cooling problem, not a lubrication problem. Changing the oil weight won't fix cooling problems.
No one said changing oil weight will fix cooling problem(s). but the point is that heavier oil works better inside hotter engines. Renesis (actually, all Rotary) is one of them.
Im not sure what your area is like, but in NYC, we get stuck in traffic at all times >_< and almost all of highway are covered by tarmac by now (used to be concrete, but they are slowly changing it, cuz its easier to repair them than concrete), since tarmac is black it attracts heat even "better".
when Im stuck somewhere, oil temperature goes up REALLY fast. coolant is ok tho. thats because we dont have any active cooling at the oil coolers. Anyway, The oil temp will go up to 115 Celsius ~ at that point, what 5w20 will turn into ? Full of win?
So it has nothing to do with racing or not, this type of engine simply needs something better than 5w20.
Last Mazda's NA rotary engine was 13B-EGI(I have one, yay?) according to RR the engine can go at least 140K miles some can go 200K before a rebuild. I even seen a lot of them make it thru 250K mark. and what do they use? well, 5w20 didnt exist back then (thank god for that), and most of the users are using 20w50 for them. and if you did look at my chart from my 7's manual, even Mazda said its "ok" to use 20w50 till -10 degrees. probably not the best, but still works. not to mention oil technology has improved Since then. so I never really concern about "start up" wear.
Where the difference between say the Fit and the RX8 comes into play is the oiling system itself. Using a higher quality synthetic would be my advice with the RX8 because almost no one drains the coolers which means 2 to 3 quarts of dirty oil remains in the engine. The breakdown of additive packages and barrier protections would concern me more in that circumstance.
Synthetic is better, yes.
The same thinking that is occuring here is the same as you see with clutch purchases. Many buyers think they are so hard on their car that they need a stage 100 disc to handle all that punishment. The truth is they don't need anything more than a basic upgrade.
Last edited by nycgps; 08-04-2009 at 09:02 AM.
#375
The Doctor (Mechanic) said he could only find a broken (in two) Side Seal Spring!, not a seal but a spring, in my time not that common.
We used to renew them because they were cheap, and other reasons.
Could the movement of the SS cause the spring to wear through?
BTW, I also remember years ago we used to Ream out the Corner Seals ('A' Rotaries Only) and put in OS Corner Seals either 0.2 or 0.03 OS, my Dealer had a reaming Tool and Jig to preform the task.
We used to renew them because they were cheap, and other reasons.
Could the movement of the SS cause the spring to wear through?
BTW, I also remember years ago we used to Ream out the Corner Seals ('A' Rotaries Only) and put in OS Corner Seals either 0.2 or 0.03 OS, my Dealer had a reaming Tool and Jig to preform the task.
We are getting way off-topic, btw, and maybe we should step aside and let the youngsters fight about oil.