Help! Quick Lube screw up..
11-30-2012 | 09:29 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Help! Quick Lube screw up..
I took my car for an oil change to a local GoodYear shop. They take my car in and after a couple of minutes call me in to say my drain plug is messed up, they could not open it, gthe threads were worn out and they would have to use a wrench or something to open it, that I will have gto get them a new drain plug.
I took the car to the Mazda dealer for an oil change instead and they call me in, say someone screwed up the drain plug, probably attempted to unscrew it with the wrong tool and then used a wrench to unscrew it and it is messed up royally. They would have to replace the whole basin thing, order a new one in a day or so and the bill would be $480. They suggest I demand the Good Year place pay for it. I doubt they would. They will probably say that I should just get them a new drain plug and they will take the old one out by using a wrench.
The mazda service guy says that there is not even enough space to use a wrench on it and even if they get a wrench on it, it would probably slip as it is round and smooth.
What now?
I took the car to the Mazda dealer for an oil change instead and they call me in, say someone screwed up the drain plug, probably attempted to unscrew it with the wrong tool and then used a wrench to unscrew it and it is messed up royally. They would have to replace the whole basin thing, order a new one in a day or so and the bill would be $480. They suggest I demand the Good Year place pay for it. I doubt they would. They will probably say that I should just get them a new drain plug and they will take the old one out by using a wrench.
The mazda service guy says that there is not even enough space to use a wrench on it and even if they get a wrench on it, it would probably slip as it is round and smooth.
What now?
11-30-2012 | 10:33 PM
#3
Voids warranties
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,632
Likes: 0
From: southern new england
Chances are its just worn out from years of oil changes. It hard to place blame on any one person. Pretty common on a lot of cars. It shouldn't be a big deal to remove it. Have someone grind a slit in it and use a chisel or wide screw driver to take it out. Then put a new one in.
Shouldn't be more than a half hour labor. The dealer wont do stuff like that though. It more profitable for them to just change the while oil pan. Bring it to a different shop.
Shouldn't be more than a half hour labor. The dealer wont do stuff like that though. It more profitable for them to just change the while oil pan. Bring it to a different shop.
12-01-2012 | 08:45 AM
#5
Registered
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,027
Likes: 5
From: Northern Virginia
...worn out from years of oil changes...
If "Threads messed up" means it's stripped from some yahoo overtightening it, that's not uncommon at jiffy goobers. Replacing the pan is usually the correct fix. There are two other possible fixes. First, you can get a threadless plug. It's a rubber piece with a bolt through it. Tightening the bolt squishes the rubber out to hold it in the hole. Second possibility would be to install a Fumoto valve, if the threads in the pan have one more life left in them.
If it's the flats on the outside that are rounded off, like everyone else seems to be interpreting the problem, a good mechanic has the tools and skills to get the thing out.
Ken
12-01-2012 | 09:43 AM
#7
Wanting to Learn & Master
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
From: Niagara Ontario Canada
Hey, I definitely agree with the do it yourself method here, dont take it to the stealership, really you can do it (take it out in your driveway. just have you oil catch basin ready and towels and such.) if you are nervous about doing it get a knowledgeable friend to help you too. order the new part and put it in. honestly, either mazda i going to charge you out the *** or some random shop is going to do a poor job thats going to be a problem in a few months. You can do it, just do your research , have a knowledgeable friend right there and go for it.
and the part about these random places who change oil for cheap, yep no matter what one of my cars they have touch they dont use the exact correct tool so things get stripped all the time then they use some other tool to get it out once they have ruined it, I have always changed my oil myself in all the cars and trucks often with my fathers help too. learn to do your oil yourself and you'll be golden.
and the part about these random places who change oil for cheap, yep no matter what one of my cars they have touch they dont use the exact correct tool so things get stripped all the time then they use some other tool to get it out once they have ruined it, I have always changed my oil myself in all the cars and trucks often with my fathers help too. learn to do your oil yourself and you'll be golden.
Last edited by HQuin; 12-01-2012 at 09:45 AM.
12-01-2012 | 05:35 PM
#8
Voids warranties
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,632
Likes: 0
From: southern new england
The lube shop said the will need to use a "wrench" to take it off but the "wrench" wont fit. Then the dealer said someone used the wrong wrench.
12-01-2012 | 09:06 PM
#10
Surf Hard, Drive Hard
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,840
Likes: 12
From: Indialantic, Florida
Chances are its just worn out from years of oil changes. It hard to place blame on any one person. Pretty common on a lot of cars. It shouldn't be a big deal to remove it. Have someone grind a slit in it and use a chisel or wide screw driver to take it out. Then put a new one in.
Shouldn't be more than a half hour labor. The dealer wont do stuff like that though. It more profitable for them to just change the while oil pan. Bring it to a different shop.
Shouldn't be more than a half hour labor. The dealer wont do stuff like that though. It more profitable for them to just change the while oil pan. Bring it to a different shop.
lol
12-02-2012 | 09:22 PM
#13
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Took the car back to the Goodyear guys who screwed it up, told them the Mazda dealer told me that I need a new oil pan, that I should complain to his higher ups and he laughed. Reassured me that the Mazda dealer was trying to sell me an new oil pan for $480, that I should get them a new drain plug and they can take the drain plug out, install the new one, that if it truly needed a new pan, they would cover the cost.
So, Monday, I will purchase a new drain plug and see if they can get the old one out and put a new one in. Wish me luck!
So, Monday, I will purchase a new drain plug and see if they can get the old one out and put a new one in. Wish me luck!
12-03-2012 | 02:42 PM
#18
Goodyear for oil changes?
I think we have now covered why you either do it yourself, if you are capable, or take it to a MAZDA dealer to have it done.
Having to explain what a magnetic oil drain plug is? Seriously?
I am not trying to flame you, but, you have been pretty outspoken about friendly advice that I have tried to give on this forum and now it is becoming perfectly clear you have no idea what you are talking about and should stop calling others out who have a lot more experience with these cars than you do.
Now go start a thread polling the RX8Club to see how many use 10 minute oil change joints.
I think we have now covered why you either do it yourself, if you are capable, or take it to a MAZDA dealer to have it done.
Having to explain what a magnetic oil drain plug is? Seriously?
I am not trying to flame you, but, you have been pretty outspoken about friendly advice that I have tried to give on this forum and now it is becoming perfectly clear you have no idea what you are talking about and should stop calling others out who have a lot more experience with these cars than you do.
Now go start a thread polling the RX8Club to see how many use 10 minute oil change joints.
12-04-2012 | 07:20 AM
#19
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
"I am not flaming you"? But you are!!! You are like someone who hung around a hospital and now says and thinks you know better than anyone and get upset when someone chooses to look for someone else for advice. You promised before to leave me alone but then you go on to read and be sarcastic, telling me to do a poll on who uses 10 minute oil changes.
For those who do not know, the man got upset because I refused to believe that pre-mix or redline a day was necessary as he kept saying. My poll and others have since found that there are many in the 100K club and single engine club who have got there without ever pre-mixing or redline each day and using dino oil. Pre-mix and/or redline won't likely cause harm but it is not essential to the Rx8. I know of some others who were interested in an RX8, changed their mind about buying one after hearing that following the owner's manual was not enough, that the cars were unreliable and now the price of RX8's has tanked.
There are many people who want to buy an RX8 because it looks cool and they need a car. They are turned away. Just because a doctor sees a lot of sick people does not mean they become experts on how to kep people healthy, only how to cure a particular disease and just because anyone has seen a lot of messed up RX8's and can fix them does not mean that he knows why they got messed up. It could be a zillion things other than pre-mix or redlining everyday. It could be driving without checking the oil, constantly driving in gear at redline or idling for hours or whatever else.
For those who do not know, the man got upset because I refused to believe that pre-mix or redline a day was necessary as he kept saying. My poll and others have since found that there are many in the 100K club and single engine club who have got there without ever pre-mixing or redline each day and using dino oil. Pre-mix and/or redline won't likely cause harm but it is not essential to the Rx8. I know of some others who were interested in an RX8, changed their mind about buying one after hearing that following the owner's manual was not enough, that the cars were unreliable and now the price of RX8's has tanked.
There are many people who want to buy an RX8 because it looks cool and they need a car. They are turned away. Just because a doctor sees a lot of sick people does not mean they become experts on how to kep people healthy, only how to cure a particular disease and just because anyone has seen a lot of messed up RX8's and can fix them does not mean that he knows why they got messed up. It could be a zillion things other than pre-mix or redlining everyday. It could be driving without checking the oil, constantly driving in gear at redline or idling for hours or whatever else.
12-04-2012 | 08:47 AM
#20
Install a quick oil drain plug that does not have to be removed.
I installed one. Cost about 10 usa bucks. All I do in push in the **** and twist and the oil
drains out.
No chance of stripping the treads. Bought at Autozone.
Oh, I do my own oil changes, who takes it to quickie lub you?
I installed one. Cost about 10 usa bucks. All I do in push in the **** and twist and the oil
drains out.
No chance of stripping the treads. Bought at Autozone.
Oh, I do my own oil changes, who takes it to quickie lub you?
Last edited by Myardor; 12-04-2012 at 08:59 AM.
12-04-2012 | 03:29 PM
#21
"I am not flaming you"? But you are!!! You are like someone who hung around a hospital and now says and thinks you know better than anyone and get upset when someone chooses to look for someone else for advice. You promised before to leave me alone but then you go on to read and be sarcastic, telling me to do a poll on who uses 10 minute oil changes.
For those who do not know, the man got upset because I refused to believe that pre-mix or redline a day was necessary as he kept saying. My poll and others have since found that there are many in the 100K club and single engine club who have got there without ever pre-mixing or redline each day and using dino oil. Pre-mix and/or redline won't likely cause harm but it is not essential to the Rx8. I know of some others who were interested in an RX8, changed their mind about buying one after hearing that following the owner's manual was not enough, that the cars were unreliable and now the price of RX8's has tanked.
There are many people who want to buy an RX8 because it looks cool and they need a car. They are turned away. Just because a doctor sees a lot of sick people does not mean they become experts on how to kep people healthy, only how to cure a particular disease and just because anyone has seen a lot of messed up RX8's and can fix them does not mean that he knows why they got messed up. It could be a zillion things other than pre-mix or redlining everyday. It could be driving without checking the oil, constantly driving in gear at redline or idling for hours or whatever else.
For those who do not know, the man got upset because I refused to believe that pre-mix or redline a day was necessary as he kept saying. My poll and others have since found that there are many in the 100K club and single engine club who have got there without ever pre-mixing or redline each day and using dino oil. Pre-mix and/or redline won't likely cause harm but it is not essential to the Rx8. I know of some others who were interested in an RX8, changed their mind about buying one after hearing that following the owner's manual was not enough, that the cars were unreliable and now the price of RX8's has tanked.
There are many people who want to buy an RX8 because it looks cool and they need a car. They are turned away. Just because a doctor sees a lot of sick people does not mean they become experts on how to kep people healthy, only how to cure a particular disease and just because anyone has seen a lot of messed up RX8's and can fix them does not mean that he knows why they got messed up. It could be a zillion things other than pre-mix or redlining everyday. It could be driving without checking the oil, constantly driving in gear at redline or idling for hours or whatever else.
Let me point you to why I premix in bold. FYI - I was hugely against premix and hated the notion of having to add it to my car, argued like you that is was unnecessary. I am a convert.
The reason I posted in YOUR thread is because, your experience above, tells me all I need to know about you and your knowledge of cars in general and particularly this car. It would behoove you to STFU and READ what others are telling you.
You told a member here I was giving bad advice, like you seem to know what you are talking about. You are misguiding members on here and you were even told so in another thread by other members.
You found a few, that have 100K engines and you think this this proves Premix is wrong and turning off cold engines is o.k. There are many more on their 2nd and 3rd engines before 100K.
Please show me where I say to use synthetic oil and to redline every day. Here are my posts.
RIWWP is our resident welcome wagon, since it is early Sunday and you seem to have some time, please read here:
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discuss...t-here-202454/
Lots of good reading and especially important to know the quirkiness of the rotary engine. There are some things that are different about them that require you to treat them special. A true enthusiasts car.
Foremost, never turn off the car right after starting it and the engine is cold, this will result in a flooded engine, always allow the engine to warm up and lean out before turning off. Read the link above tons of great info.
There are many good tuners in the rotary world finding one that you feel is in alignment with your desires for the car is the trick.
I am sure you know this already, these cars are about handling and LOVE to be in track and Autocross situations, as well as getting off the Island and enjoying some nice mountain roads.
head out the Deals Gap Rotary Rally that happens every spring, amazing roads and tons of great cars, as well as tuners coming out.
You are also going to find out that Mazda locked down the software on the RX8's pretty tight. I know Pettit Racing spent a ton of money cracking the code so they could reflash the series 1 RX8's ECU's when he installed a Super Charger kit in them.
The only option I am aware of at this point for a series 2 is to pull the factory ECU and go stand alone if you are interested in big HP gains vie forced induction.
As far as getting more HP out of the current RX8's there is not a lot to get, Mazda pushed that envelope pretty hard already. Things like Cat back exhaust net you zero HP and in some cases minus, same goes for intakes, the only thing they do is make the engine sound louder.
Concentrate on the suspension (which is already amazing) and the brakes, then get into track days or Autocrossing and you will love your car.
Welcome to the club.
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discuss...t-here-202454/
Lots of good reading and especially important to know the quirkiness of the rotary engine. There are some things that are different about them that require you to treat them special. A true enthusiasts car.
Foremost, never turn off the car right after starting it and the engine is cold, this will result in a flooded engine, always allow the engine to warm up and lean out before turning off. Read the link above tons of great info.
There are many good tuners in the rotary world finding one that you feel is in alignment with your desires for the car is the trick.
I am sure you know this already, these cars are about handling and LOVE to be in track and Autocross situations, as well as getting off the Island and enjoying some nice mountain roads.
head out the Deals Gap Rotary Rally that happens every spring, amazing roads and tons of great cars, as well as tuners coming out.
You are also going to find out that Mazda locked down the software on the RX8's pretty tight. I know Pettit Racing spent a ton of money cracking the code so they could reflash the series 1 RX8's ECU's when he installed a Super Charger kit in them.
The only option I am aware of at this point for a series 2 is to pull the factory ECU and go stand alone if you are interested in big HP gains vie forced induction.
As far as getting more HP out of the current RX8's there is not a lot to get, Mazda pushed that envelope pretty hard already. Things like Cat back exhaust net you zero HP and in some cases minus, same goes for intakes, the only thing they do is make the engine sound louder.
Concentrate on the suspension (which is already amazing) and the brakes, then get into track days or Autocrossing and you will love your car.
Welcome to the club.
Having owned various Rotary cars over the last 25 years, I always try to be a good them as I possibly can and recognize their idiosyncrasies.
For some weird reason my Series 2 (2009 R3) RX8 has these neat little LED's on the dash around my tach and in my owners manual states to let the car warm up enough that these LED's are off.
I never really needed an owners manual to tell me that, I have owned second gen RX7's for many many years, including my FC with a REW engine in it, I never turned off a cold rotary, ever.
Having installed a Motec M4 in my FC, and having my choke removed from my throttle body, I learned a lot about what a Rotary wants to be happy when cold, and that is a very rich mixture, which = lots of gas pouring in at start up. The last thing I would want to do is start my FC up and shut it off cold, one reason is fear of flooding it, second reason is I personally feel it is really bad for a rotary engine o be started for a few seconds and shut of cold. In my Motec - My fuel demand at startup and idling when cold is remarkable and almost alarming. I am using the same amount of fuel at those moments as I would under low boost and mid RPM's. Yes, that much fuel. So I disagree that flooding is a symptom and not a problem, it is the way these cars were designed.
I have no problem, being an enthusiast, let my car run a few extra minutes when I start it. I also premix and I am a huge proponent of it, I have seen engines tore down that did not premix and did and the difference in wear is startling.
These cars get a bad reputation as having short lived engines. I am doing all I can with my RX8 to avoid that.
For some weird reason my Series 2 (2009 R3) RX8 has these neat little LED's on the dash around my tach and in my owners manual states to let the car warm up enough that these LED's are off.
I never really needed an owners manual to tell me that, I have owned second gen RX7's for many many years, including my FC with a REW engine in it, I never turned off a cold rotary, ever.
Having installed a Motec M4 in my FC, and having my choke removed from my throttle body, I learned a lot about what a Rotary wants to be happy when cold, and that is a very rich mixture, which = lots of gas pouring in at start up. The last thing I would want to do is start my FC up and shut it off cold, one reason is fear of flooding it, second reason is I personally feel it is really bad for a rotary engine o be started for a few seconds and shut of cold. In my Motec - My fuel demand at startup and idling when cold is remarkable and almost alarming. I am using the same amount of fuel at those moments as I would under low boost and mid RPM's. Yes, that much fuel. So I disagree that flooding is a symptom and not a problem, it is the way these cars were designed.
I have no problem, being an enthusiast, let my car run a few extra minutes when I start it. I also premix and I am a huge proponent of it, I have seen engines tore down that did not premix and did and the difference in wear is startling.
These cars get a bad reputation as having short lived engines. I am doing all I can with my RX8 to avoid that.
Now, go here:
RX-8 Recommendations | Pettit Racing
This is a shop that specializes in Rotary Engine tuning and has opened up a LOT of engines that have failed. (1 of them mine from my RX7)
Read this if nothing else:
Allowing the engine to properly warm-up will greatly extend engine life. This is best accomplished by driving SLOW UNDER 4000RPM, (light acceleration), for at least 10 minutes. Never allow the rotary engine to overheat; it can be ruined in less than five minutes with out coolant.
Oil and filter change every 3000 miles or less. For hard driving like our test cars, we change every 2000 miles or less if it appears dirty, smells like fuel, when racing or if you drive like you’re in a race. For highway driving the oil seems to stay clean past 3000 mi. (Fuel smell is most common with boosted applications where the crankcase is pounded with hydrocarbons)
Use fuel lubricant with every tank of fuel, this is proven to extend rotary engine life by 30% or more. We recommend 4oz of Protek R with every fill up, (More info on our website Pettit Racing )
We routinely receive Renesis engines that failed: some of the causes are listed below by order of popularity:
# 1 Turbo charged w/high backpressure ratio.
#2 Poor maintenance
#3 Overheated
#4 Hi mileage/excessive seal wear; regular use of Protek-R will greatly reduce the likelihood of this occurring.
#5 Bearing failure, the oil recommendation 5/20 seems to be inadequate, most Renesis engines opened have excessive bearing wear, we therefore recommend a quality 10/40 or 20/50 oil the latter for racing and spirited driving.
Oil and filter change every 3000 miles or less. For hard driving like our test cars, we change every 2000 miles or less if it appears dirty, smells like fuel, when racing or if you drive like you’re in a race. For highway driving the oil seems to stay clean past 3000 mi. (Fuel smell is most common with boosted applications where the crankcase is pounded with hydrocarbons)
Use fuel lubricant with every tank of fuel, this is proven to extend rotary engine life by 30% or more. We recommend 4oz of Protek R with every fill up, (More info on our website Pettit Racing )
We routinely receive Renesis engines that failed: some of the causes are listed below by order of popularity:
# 1 Turbo charged w/high backpressure ratio.
#2 Poor maintenance
#3 Overheated
#4 Hi mileage/excessive seal wear; regular use of Protek-R will greatly reduce the likelihood of this occurring.
#5 Bearing failure, the oil recommendation 5/20 seems to be inadequate, most Renesis engines opened have excessive bearing wear, we therefore recommend a quality 10/40 or 20/50 oil the latter for racing and spirited driving.
As much as I hated to do it, I started. Can you get away without it? Sure you can, but if someone told you that you can make your engine happier by doing this simple task would you?
That defines an enthusiast from someone who bought for looks.
I am on board with you concerning redlining and synthetic oil. Redlining is not good for any engine, I try to keep well below it, I try to stay 8K or below. 7K is usually my limit with both my rotary cars, 8K being a rare treat.
Back on topic, I am interested in seeing now if your drain plug was the problem or if the pan was buggered up.
If it was only the plug, I would be back at the Stealership and asking why they were trying to upsell you. Then hopefully you have another Mazda dealership near by you can use instead if they did indeed try to upsell you.
Edit:
Racing Beat says, use Premix:
http://www.racingbeat.com/RX8/Engine...ion/11967.html
Racing Beat has been recommending the use of synthetic oils in rotary applications for several years. Our research has found that synthetic oils provide superior friction reducing between sliding surfaces, reduced foaming, and lower oil temperatures. We have tested several different synthetic oils and have found that while most offered improved wear and lower oil temperatures, none offered any horsepower gains... except for Royal Purple!
Our in-house testing has yielded up to a 2% performance increase after changing from mineral-based oil to Royal Purple Synthetic Motor Oil. How could this be? Jim Mederer, co-founder and chief engineer at Racing Beat, was truly puzzled. With over 35 years of professional racing experience under his belt, he has seen and tried just about every "new" lubricant that hits the market. All offered better wear and lower oil temperatures but none offered any horsepower improvement. After spending time consulting with the engineers at Royal Purple to better understand the reason for the horsepower gain, it was explained that the secret was the proprietary ingredient "Synerlec". This Synerlec ingredient provides an ultra-slick film on internal engine components to significantly reduce power-robbing friction. Less friction equals more power!
Other professional engine builders have confirmed that Royal Purple Synthetic Racing Oil delivers measurable horsepower gains. Independent dyno tests show increases up to 5% (on smaller displacement engines) with nothing more than an oil change.
Our in-house testing has yielded up to a 2% performance increase after changing from mineral-based oil to Royal Purple Synthetic Motor Oil. How could this be? Jim Mederer, co-founder and chief engineer at Racing Beat, was truly puzzled. With over 35 years of professional racing experience under his belt, he has seen and tried just about every "new" lubricant that hits the market. All offered better wear and lower oil temperatures but none offered any horsepower improvement. After spending time consulting with the engineers at Royal Purple to better understand the reason for the horsepower gain, it was explained that the secret was the proprietary ingredient "Synerlec". This Synerlec ingredient provides an ultra-slick film on internal engine components to significantly reduce power-robbing friction. Less friction equals more power!
Other professional engine builders have confirmed that Royal Purple Synthetic Racing Oil delivers measurable horsepower gains. Independent dyno tests show increases up to 5% (on smaller displacement engines) with nothing more than an oil change.
http://www.mazdatrix.com/q-supply.htm
Inherently with many rotary engines, the entirety of the rotor and housing are not being sufficiently lubricated, resulting in premature wear or damage. In order to increase lubrication within the engine, Idemitsu developed Idemitsu Rotary Premix. At 1/2 oz per gallon of fuel, it is a cost effective way lubricate more of your engine and prevent premature catastrophic damage.
A special blend of base oils reduces deposits and subsequent exhaust port clogging. As a result, your rotary will maintain the power at which it was designed. Special detergent/dispersant additives keep your fuel injectors clean to reduce maintenance. Provides additional lubrication for apex and side seals to increase seal life and increase efficiency of engine. Special additives allow for better sealing of the chamber, creating greater efficiency and more power.
A special blend of base oils reduces deposits and subsequent exhaust port clogging. As a result, your rotary will maintain the power at which it was designed. Special detergent/dispersant additives keep your fuel injectors clean to reduce maintenance. Provides additional lubrication for apex and side seals to increase seal life and increase efficiency of engine. Special additives allow for better sealing of the chamber, creating greater efficiency and more power.
Last edited by Jims5543; 12-04-2012 at 05:47 PM. Reason: Citing more sources
12-05-2012 | 09:10 AM
#23
Registered
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 462
Likes: 0
Every time I'm doing an oil change on one of our cars my neighbor has to come over and ask why I'm wasting my time when I could just go to a lube joint and have it done cheaper than doing it myself. Well, I took our Acura CL-S once to the dealer for a free oil change. They had sent me a coupon and it was Feburary and freezing out so I figuered what the hell, just this once. Well the next time I went to change the oil I couldn't budge the drain plug or the oil filter. Had to take it to my local mechanic to back off the plug and filter. I was lucky that I 've been doing business with them for years and they did it no charge. Never again will I take any of my cars for an oil change. Really, if you can't change your own oil, what are you capable of doing on your car?
12-05-2012 | 08:16 PM
#25
Registered
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,027
Likes: 5
From: Northern Virginia
Ken