Low MAF, High Trim at Idle
#1
Low MAF, High Trim at Idle
As the title states, I am having a problem with low MAF reading with high fuel trims at idle.
First some background on the car:
2008 40AE
66000 miles
BHR Ignition
BHR Midpipe
VFAD removed and capped
From other threads determined that i most likely have a vacuum leak. Things I have checked so far:
Pulled upper intake, checked gaskets.
Vacuum tested all hoses that I could find.
Also checked that ssv and vdi held vacuum.
Changed MAF
Replaced short jet air hose
Compression Test. All faces were between 7.1 and 7.5 kg2 when normalized to 250rpm
Smoke test. Had leaks at all three hose connections behind accordian. Put clamps on them and smoke test again. No further leaks.
Here are the most recent logs
Vacuum Gauge
Hard to see, but between 17 and 18 in Hg
Any ideas of what to check next would be appreciated.
First some background on the car:
2008 40AE
66000 miles
BHR Ignition
BHR Midpipe
VFAD removed and capped
From other threads determined that i most likely have a vacuum leak. Things I have checked so far:
Pulled upper intake, checked gaskets.
Vacuum tested all hoses that I could find.
Also checked that ssv and vdi held vacuum.
Changed MAF
Replaced short jet air hose
Compression Test. All faces were between 7.1 and 7.5 kg2 when normalized to 250rpm
Smoke test. Had leaks at all three hose connections behind accordian. Put clamps on them and smoke test again. No further leaks.
Here are the most recent logs
Vacuum Gauge
Hard to see, but between 17 and 18 in Hg
Any ideas of what to check next would be appreciated.
#4
If you are sure there are no vacuum leaks then it could be a faulty sensor or even worse low compression. Hard starts are common with low compression but not always present.
Read this:
Read this:
What’s normal, what isn’t?
When looking at fuel trim on a scan tool, it should be checked for at least 30 seconds at three different engine speeds: idle, 1,500 rpm and 2,500 rpm. If you make a scan tool recording while driving the vehicle, you can see how fuel trims change under changing loads.
When everything is stable and working correctly, fuel trim numbers should be no greater than 10%, and total fuel trim should be no more than 10% when the numbers are added together. For example, if LTFT is 4% and STFT is 4%, the total is 8%: that’s acceptable.
If LTFT is 12% and STFT is negative 6%, total fuel trim is 6%. This shows that the PCM has enough control to keep the catalyst working correctly, but the high LTFT number shows it’s compensating for something. On an older engine, LTFT is typically a bit higher as the PCM compensates for normal wear.
If fuel trim is significantly greater than 10% positive or negative, the PCM is compensating for more than just normal wear-and-tear. Whether it’s an older engine with a simple oxygen sensor or a newer model with a wide-band air/fuel ratio sensor, LTFT will continue to shift as needed to keep the STFT swings in the correct range.
LTFT can shift surprisingly far, but when it reaches plus or minus 25%, the MIL will be illuminated and a code will be set. Fault codes specific to fuel trim are:
P0170: fuel trim bank 1
P0171: system too lean (bank 1)
P0172: system too rich (bank 1)
P0173: fuel trim bank 2
P0174: system too lean (bank 2)
P0175: system too rich (bank 2)
By the time LTFT gets to 25%, there will be other codes, too.
But if LTFT is below that limit with or without other codes, you can still gain a lot of information from the scan tool before connecting additional test equipment to confirm your diagnosis.
Why are the fuel trim numbers high?
If LTFT or total fuel trim is greater than plus 10%, the PCM thinks the air/fuel ratio is too lean and it’s adding fuel to bring STFT control to the correct range. This presents three possibilities:
Unmeasured air is reaching the combustion chambers.
Less than the commanded amount of fuel is reaching the combustion chambers.
One or more sensors is reporting incorrectly.
When thinking about what would cause each of these conditions, the first thing to consider is how the PCM determines airflow. If the engine uses a mass airflow sensor (MAF), high fuel trims at idle are a classic symptom of a vacuum leak, especially if LTFT decreases at higher engine speeds.
Since the amount of air flowing through the vacuum leak doesn’t increase, the leak has less affect on air/fuel ratio at higher speeds and loads, so LTFT will come down as engine speed goes up. When you look for vacuum leaks, don’t forget the various “calibrated vacuum leaks” like crankcase ventilation, the evaporative emissions (EVAP) purge valve and, if equipped, air-shrouded injectors.
A dirty or faulty MAF sensor can also cause positive fuel trim numbers because it “under-reports” airflow, driving the base air/fuel calculation lean.
On engines that use a manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor to determine airflow, a vacuum leak does not affect fuel trim because the extra air (pressure) in the manifold is still measured by the MAP sensor.
Low fuel delivery will cause an increase in LTFT as the PCM tries to compensate for extra oxygen in the exhaust stream. Remember, the PCM doesn’t measure fuel flow; it only knows injector pulse width and assumes fuel delivery is correct as commanded. Is equivalence ratio changing, too? If you add propane and see LTFT and equivalence ratio numbers come down, there probably is a fuel delivery problem. If there’s no change, an oxygen sensor may be faulty or shorted to ground. Don’t forget to check this at different speeds and loads, because fuel flow problems often don’t show up at idle.
If the engine has two cylinder banks (even some four-cylinder engines are split into two banks), compare the readings to see if the problem affects both banks.
The PCM consults all oxygen sensors in the system when calculating fuel trim. Normally the rear (post catalyst) sensor voltage will be fairly stable near the middle of its range, but LTFT will likely increase if that sensor reading is low (remember, low is lean).
A catalyst code will influence both short- and long-term fuel trims. An exhaust leak after the catalyst will probably only affect the rear oxygen sensor.
When looking at fuel trim on a scan tool, it should be checked for at least 30 seconds at three different engine speeds: idle, 1,500 rpm and 2,500 rpm. If you make a scan tool recording while driving the vehicle, you can see how fuel trims change under changing loads.
When everything is stable and working correctly, fuel trim numbers should be no greater than 10%, and total fuel trim should be no more than 10% when the numbers are added together. For example, if LTFT is 4% and STFT is 4%, the total is 8%: that’s acceptable.
If LTFT is 12% and STFT is negative 6%, total fuel trim is 6%. This shows that the PCM has enough control to keep the catalyst working correctly, but the high LTFT number shows it’s compensating for something. On an older engine, LTFT is typically a bit higher as the PCM compensates for normal wear.
If fuel trim is significantly greater than 10% positive or negative, the PCM is compensating for more than just normal wear-and-tear. Whether it’s an older engine with a simple oxygen sensor or a newer model with a wide-band air/fuel ratio sensor, LTFT will continue to shift as needed to keep the STFT swings in the correct range.
LTFT can shift surprisingly far, but when it reaches plus or minus 25%, the MIL will be illuminated and a code will be set. Fault codes specific to fuel trim are:
P0170: fuel trim bank 1
P0171: system too lean (bank 1)
P0172: system too rich (bank 1)
P0173: fuel trim bank 2
P0174: system too lean (bank 2)
P0175: system too rich (bank 2)
By the time LTFT gets to 25%, there will be other codes, too.
But if LTFT is below that limit with or without other codes, you can still gain a lot of information from the scan tool before connecting additional test equipment to confirm your diagnosis.
Why are the fuel trim numbers high?
If LTFT or total fuel trim is greater than plus 10%, the PCM thinks the air/fuel ratio is too lean and it’s adding fuel to bring STFT control to the correct range. This presents three possibilities:
Unmeasured air is reaching the combustion chambers.
Less than the commanded amount of fuel is reaching the combustion chambers.
One or more sensors is reporting incorrectly.
When thinking about what would cause each of these conditions, the first thing to consider is how the PCM determines airflow. If the engine uses a mass airflow sensor (MAF), high fuel trims at idle are a classic symptom of a vacuum leak, especially if LTFT decreases at higher engine speeds.
Since the amount of air flowing through the vacuum leak doesn’t increase, the leak has less affect on air/fuel ratio at higher speeds and loads, so LTFT will come down as engine speed goes up. When you look for vacuum leaks, don’t forget the various “calibrated vacuum leaks” like crankcase ventilation, the evaporative emissions (EVAP) purge valve and, if equipped, air-shrouded injectors.
A dirty or faulty MAF sensor can also cause positive fuel trim numbers because it “under-reports” airflow, driving the base air/fuel calculation lean.
On engines that use a manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor to determine airflow, a vacuum leak does not affect fuel trim because the extra air (pressure) in the manifold is still measured by the MAP sensor.
Low fuel delivery will cause an increase in LTFT as the PCM tries to compensate for extra oxygen in the exhaust stream. Remember, the PCM doesn’t measure fuel flow; it only knows injector pulse width and assumes fuel delivery is correct as commanded. Is equivalence ratio changing, too? If you add propane and see LTFT and equivalence ratio numbers come down, there probably is a fuel delivery problem. If there’s no change, an oxygen sensor may be faulty or shorted to ground. Don’t forget to check this at different speeds and loads, because fuel flow problems often don’t show up at idle.
If the engine has two cylinder banks (even some four-cylinder engines are split into two banks), compare the readings to see if the problem affects both banks.
The PCM consults all oxygen sensors in the system when calculating fuel trim. Normally the rear (post catalyst) sensor voltage will be fairly stable near the middle of its range, but LTFT will likely increase if that sensor reading is low (remember, low is lean).
A catalyst code will influence both short- and long-term fuel trims. An exhaust leak after the catalyst will probably only affect the rear oxygen sensor.
#7
Just to make sure I am understanding you. The borderline compression reading could be the cause of the low MAF reading causing the high fuel trims?
And if so, In your opinion should I get the engine rebuilt now or keep driving it until i see other symptoms and/or lower compression readings?
And if so, In your opinion should I get the engine rebuilt now or keep driving it until i see other symptoms and/or lower compression readings?
#8
Yes a failing engine can cause those issues. As for getting it rebuilt now, my personal opinion would be yes. The longer you drive it, there is a higher chance that you are damaging components that could have reusable in the rebuild.
But that is a financial decision, if you are buying a rebuilt engine and using your engine as a core (like Mazda, dealers don't open up cores, they just take them an give you credit) then that is not as much of an issue unless the builder is really strict about what he consider a "usable core". But the engine still has time left in it, how long is the question no one can answer. My first reman lasted 75k but then died from one day to the next without any signs of failure.
But that is a financial decision, if you are buying a rebuilt engine and using your engine as a core (like Mazda, dealers don't open up cores, they just take them an give you credit) then that is not as much of an issue unless the builder is really strict about what he consider a "usable core". But the engine still has time left in it, how long is the question no one can answer. My first reman lasted 75k but then died from one day to the next without any signs of failure.
#10
Have the same issue sort of. LTFT at idle jumps between 6 and 14%, stable at around 9. Car starts like crap, smokes like it was flooded. Starts better when I add some throttle. Playing around with the acordion tube and airbox once got the LTFT as low as 0% for some reason. When I reset the ECU, the car fires right up.
Still have to do a smoke test, I will check those vacuum tubes you mentioned here, but they are a pain to pul out of the acordion. How can I do that? Just good old fashioned violence?
Still have to do a smoke test, I will check those vacuum tubes you mentioned here, but they are a pain to pul out of the acordion. How can I do that? Just good old fashioned violence?