Low RPM at idle. Anyone have advice?
#1
Low RPM at idle. Anyone have advice?
I got my 8 in December. one day the check engine light came on and when i took it in for the first time, they said that my cat was somewhat clogged. they said it was okay to drive like that but my 8 also had a somewhat rough idle and would misfire every now and then. well some time went by till now and my car still runs great as far as i know but i noticed a slight drop in my RPM when it idles. i took it in to get it diagnosed and it had multiple misfires. so i changed the plugs but that did not seem to help much. could it be that my cat gradually got a little more clogged to cause the RPM drop as well as the misfires?
#2
Take your car to a better mechanic from now on.
Clogged cat leads to bad plugs/coils, leads to bad engine.
Do some reading around the forum to get an idea on what a poorly maintained ignition/exhaust system can do to your car.
#4
you need to:
check your plugs AND coils
check your cat for damage. If it is (as you said) damaged/clogged, then get a new one under the 8yr/80k mile warranty. Or, gut it/ buy aftermarket.
EDIT: when was the last time the car was in for regular maintenance?
check your plugs AND coils
check your cat for damage. If it is (as you said) damaged/clogged, then get a new one under the 8yr/80k mile warranty. Or, gut it/ buy aftermarket.
EDIT: when was the last time the car was in for regular maintenance?
#5
what do you mean by regular maintenance? I change my own oil (10W-30... 5W-20 is a blown engine waiting to happen (my opinion)), change my own spark plugs, clean my own air filter, and pretty much everything else. i took it in last week to get the CEL diagnosed and all they told me is that it was the plugs. i told them to check the coils and all they told me is that nothing about the coils came up in the scan. im just going to gut my cat... i cant afford a new one and theres no point in getting a new one if i can get away with a gutted cat unless gutting it could damage the engine. They dont usually check emissions in south texas. the only thing i can think of is gutting my cat and possibly buying new coils. i have to save as much money as i can. like i said, it runs fine. Its just noticeably running different than it should. Another thing is that i have been wanting to get the engine decarbed as well but have gotten around to doing so because the procedure isnt exactly neighbor friendly and im also afraid of damaging the seals. idk... What do you think?
#6
There are literally hundreds of issues you could be having. Without all of the specifics, it's difficult to diagnose.
Here is a checklist of areas to look for:
Coils
MAF/ Eccentric shaft position (ess) sensor
Air filter
Cat converter
Motor mounts.
Once you have verified the condition of these, report back. Otherwise, it will be hit and miss, as is the case with all internet troubleshooting...
Here is a checklist of areas to look for:
Coils
MAF/ Eccentric shaft position (ess) sensor
Air filter
Cat converter
Motor mounts.
Once you have verified the condition of these, report back. Otherwise, it will be hit and miss, as is the case with all internet troubleshooting...
#7
okay sounds good. how do i check the MAF and ESS though? thats one thing ive been wanting to learn. If its absolutely necessary, then ill change the coils. i can get all four for approximately $130 from napa. lucky for me they can get me all the factory parts i need for cheap. im never going to go to the dealer for parts unless i have to get a part that only the dealer has. they tried to charge me $49 a piece for my spark plugs and i got the exact same ones from napa for $21 a piece. not including tax.
#8
The coils are the most critical part of your ignition system, and ignoring them can lead to cascading failures up to and including engine failure and your car catching on fire from an overheating cat that is clogged.
Don't ignore the coils. Serious.
Don't ignore the coils. Serious.
#11
Said another way, when were the coils changed last? If it's more than 30,000 miles or so... recommend you replace them.
These engines will seem to run fine on low compression and with 2 out of the 4 coils dead, but it's still dying inside with each revolution.
These engines will seem to run fine on low compression and with 2 out of the 4 coils dead, but it's still dying inside with each revolution.
#13
I have had it since december and it runs no different than it did on day one. It starts fine when its cold and starts just as good when its warm. it doesnt bog down ever when i depress the throttle in neutral. It seems to put out the power that its supposed to just the idle is a little shaky. oh also the CEL flashes sometimes when i rev it to high RPM. would that mean anything?
#14
I have had it since december and it runs no different than it did on day one. It starts fine when its cold and starts just as good when its warm. it doesnt bog down ever when i depress the throttle in neutral. It seems to put out the power that its supposed to just the idle is a little shaky. oh also the CEL flashes sometimes when i rev it to high RPM. would that mean anything?
#15
I don't want to muddy the water here, RX8soldier is taking good care of you.
+1 RIWWP on the coils
However just my 2c with the ESS.
I'm boosted, a top mount T4 with a small leak in the oil drain line back to the oil pan.
Well the ESS is in a perfect spot to collect the leaking oil.
I know exactly when it needs to be cleaned, flashing check engine light on WOT and at high RPM.
My point is check/clean the ESS (and the Maf too for that matter) just to eliminate any variables. Both items are very easy and cheap (basically free) to clean.
One warning, I have seen a few posts where people of snapped the single bolt that holds the ESS in place. Depending on the year of car, the climate it has been exposed to, I would recommend as a precaution to spray a little penetrating oil on the bolt first.
Good luck
Keep us posted.
Oh did I miss the Year and Mileage on the OPs car somewhere?
+1 RIWWP on the coils
However just my 2c with the ESS.
I'm boosted, a top mount T4 with a small leak in the oil drain line back to the oil pan.
Well the ESS is in a perfect spot to collect the leaking oil.
I know exactly when it needs to be cleaned, flashing check engine light on WOT and at high RPM.
My point is check/clean the ESS (and the Maf too for that matter) just to eliminate any variables. Both items are very easy and cheap (basically free) to clean.
One warning, I have seen a few posts where people of snapped the single bolt that holds the ESS in place. Depending on the year of car, the climate it has been exposed to, I would recommend as a precaution to spray a little penetrating oil on the bolt first.
Good luck
Keep us posted.
Oh did I miss the Year and Mileage on the OPs car somewhere?
#16
believe me ive been trying to learn as much as i can. im guessing its either the coils, cat, or both.
ill be sure to check them out ASAP. i just didnt realize how critical the coils are and how easily they can fry. in the future ill be sure to keep an eye on them along with the plugs. im hoping that replacing them will make my silver monster run as if it were a new car pulling out of the dealership's driveway for the very first time. i love these cars and they are very unique to me compared to any car with a piston engine. i intend to learn how to overhaul these engines on my own as well. they are very interesting and its always good to know the interior and exterior of any type of engine you work on. Im only 18. ive been trying to save as much money as i can to do all of the repairs needed to make it run well but parts arent exactly cheap. thats y it has taken me so long to get repairs done on it. I am happy to have it though. i would not have spent my hard earned money on any other car. Thank you for the help. i really appreciate it. ill keep you updated.
ill be sure to check them out ASAP. i just didnt realize how critical the coils are and how easily they can fry. in the future ill be sure to keep an eye on them along with the plugs. im hoping that replacing them will make my silver monster run as if it were a new car pulling out of the dealership's driveway for the very first time. i love these cars and they are very unique to me compared to any car with a piston engine. i intend to learn how to overhaul these engines on my own as well. they are very interesting and its always good to know the interior and exterior of any type of engine you work on. Im only 18. ive been trying to save as much money as i can to do all of the repairs needed to make it run well but parts arent exactly cheap. thats y it has taken me so long to get repairs done on it. I am happy to have it though. i would not have spent my hard earned money on any other car. Thank you for the help. i really appreciate it. ill keep you updated.
#17
A dyno day earlier this year provided the opportunity to see what difference worn out coils actually make: The impact of old coils, wires, & plugs - RX8Club.com
And from me new owners thread: https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discuss...t-here-202454/
And from me new owners thread: https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discuss...t-here-202454/
Importance of Ignition Health:
************************ READ THIS!!!! ************************
One of the most often overlooked or ignored parts of RX-8 ownership is the health of the ignition system. This includes the ignition coils, spark plug wires, and spark plugs. They fail. Often. So often as to be critical parts of regular maintenance.
Before I detail why, check out the first post of this thread here: The impact of old coils, wires, & plugs - RX8Club.com (owner's post here: [FEELER] Spring 2012 MM Tuning / Dyno Day @ Speed1 Allentown (formerly KDRotary) - Page 8 - RX8Club.com)
The owner's power dropped from 199whp to 172whp JUST from failing ignition. That's a 13.5% power loss!
Do I have your attention now? Good.
Mazda officially lists the plug wires and plugs as part of regular maintenance, but not the coils. Many dealers STILL don't know how easily the coils can fail. And they fail about the same time as the wires and plugs, which is about every 30,000 miles. Some can last longer, some shorter, and it's more related to your total RPMs than it is to your mileage. Highway cruising is easier on the coils than spending a day pounding around a race track.
When coils fail, they don't suddenly shut off. They start producing weaker pulses scattered among strong ones. The rate of weak pulses slowly increases and pulses start getting dropped entirely, which is where misfires start. All of this means that you aren't burning all the fuel and aren't using all the air that the engine pulled in for that combustion, and it unburnt fuel and air gets dumped into the exhaust, where it happily ignites with the presence of plenty of heat. This saturates the cat in both fuel and heat, and will rapidly kill the cat (A $1,300 USD replacement). Continuing to drive on a failing cat will add other problems such as engine damage and vehicle fires. I am not exaggerating, this can happen with just a single cat failure!
Plug fouling and wire failure is largely the same result, since all 3 pieces are needed for a complete spark. Foul the plug and it doesn't matter if the coil and wire are good. Break down the wire and it doesn't matter if the coil and plug are good.
Symptoms of ignition failure include: Power Loss, mileage drop, unstable idle, bad idle, inability to idle, shaking at idle, unstable high rpm, misfiring, flashing CEL, coughing engine, glowing cat, flooding, inability to start, inability to pass an emissions sniffer test, and just about anything you can think of where a weak or missing spark causes problems.
And if one fails, it will cascade to the other trio on the same rotor. A plug that can't fire will start fouling the other. A coil that can't fire a plug starts wearing out rapidly (if you want to test this, just unplug a wire from a plug and run the engine for a while. The coil will rapidly fail. Not unique to rotary engines)
Why do coils fail so easily?
This is largely because Mazda opted for cheap coils because of RX-7 owner complaints about how expensive their coils were. The RX-7 coils lasted much longer though. So Mazda went cheap, and so we have to replace regularly. And you can't compare to piston engine coils. A piston engine with the same setup of 1 coil for 1 plug has an average RPM of about 2,500rpm and the coil is firing every other revolution, so the coil is firing about 1,250 pulses per minute. Our rotary has an average RPM of more like 4,000rpm, and each coil fires every revolution, so about 4,000 pulses per minute. That's a bit over 3 times more. Even a piston max RPM of about 6,000rpm vs our 9,000rpm makes the difference 3,000 pulses per minute vs 9,000 pulses per minute, or 3 times as fast.
If our coils would last about 3 times longer, you are talking an average of 90,000 miles.
So keep your ignition healthy!
************************ READ THIS!!!! ************************
One of the most often overlooked or ignored parts of RX-8 ownership is the health of the ignition system. This includes the ignition coils, spark plug wires, and spark plugs. They fail. Often. So often as to be critical parts of regular maintenance.
Before I detail why, check out the first post of this thread here: The impact of old coils, wires, & plugs - RX8Club.com (owner's post here: [FEELER] Spring 2012 MM Tuning / Dyno Day @ Speed1 Allentown (formerly KDRotary) - Page 8 - RX8Club.com)
The owner's power dropped from 199whp to 172whp JUST from failing ignition. That's a 13.5% power loss!
Do I have your attention now? Good.
Mazda officially lists the plug wires and plugs as part of regular maintenance, but not the coils. Many dealers STILL don't know how easily the coils can fail. And they fail about the same time as the wires and plugs, which is about every 30,000 miles. Some can last longer, some shorter, and it's more related to your total RPMs than it is to your mileage. Highway cruising is easier on the coils than spending a day pounding around a race track.
When coils fail, they don't suddenly shut off. They start producing weaker pulses scattered among strong ones. The rate of weak pulses slowly increases and pulses start getting dropped entirely, which is where misfires start. All of this means that you aren't burning all the fuel and aren't using all the air that the engine pulled in for that combustion, and it unburnt fuel and air gets dumped into the exhaust, where it happily ignites with the presence of plenty of heat. This saturates the cat in both fuel and heat, and will rapidly kill the cat (A $1,300 USD replacement). Continuing to drive on a failing cat will add other problems such as engine damage and vehicle fires. I am not exaggerating, this can happen with just a single cat failure!
Plug fouling and wire failure is largely the same result, since all 3 pieces are needed for a complete spark. Foul the plug and it doesn't matter if the coil and wire are good. Break down the wire and it doesn't matter if the coil and plug are good.
Symptoms of ignition failure include: Power Loss, mileage drop, unstable idle, bad idle, inability to idle, shaking at idle, unstable high rpm, misfiring, flashing CEL, coughing engine, glowing cat, flooding, inability to start, inability to pass an emissions sniffer test, and just about anything you can think of where a weak or missing spark causes problems.
And if one fails, it will cascade to the other trio on the same rotor. A plug that can't fire will start fouling the other. A coil that can't fire a plug starts wearing out rapidly (if you want to test this, just unplug a wire from a plug and run the engine for a while. The coil will rapidly fail. Not unique to rotary engines)
Why do coils fail so easily?
This is largely because Mazda opted for cheap coils because of RX-7 owner complaints about how expensive their coils were. The RX-7 coils lasted much longer though. So Mazda went cheap, and so we have to replace regularly. And you can't compare to piston engine coils. A piston engine with the same setup of 1 coil for 1 plug has an average RPM of about 2,500rpm and the coil is firing every other revolution, so the coil is firing about 1,250 pulses per minute. Our rotary has an average RPM of more like 4,000rpm, and each coil fires every revolution, so about 4,000 pulses per minute. That's a bit over 3 times more. Even a piston max RPM of about 6,000rpm vs our 9,000rpm makes the difference 3,000 pulses per minute vs 9,000 pulses per minute, or 3 times as fast.
If our coils would last about 3 times longer, you are talking an average of 90,000 miles.
So keep your ignition healthy!
#18
wow that was rather informant. it helped a lot. thanx for that. well i guess that settles it then. Coils NEED to be replaced. spark plugs are good. changed them 2 days ago. i guess now all i have to do is check my cat and change my coils.
#19
changed my coils today! :D it started okay before but now it starts like 80 times better and runs smoother too. i do still have a CEL on though. Most likely because of the cat. Im pretty sure that if im smelling a burnt plastic smell coming from my car at stop signs and red lights, its pretty obvious that my cat is overheating. i havent gotten a chance to check it yet though because it was almost dark by the time i was able to change my coils. im going to check it on friday when i have time. i may punch it out for now but i am going to order a direct fit cat pretty soon. then i should be good to go with emissions, no CELs, no intense exhaust smell, and no life threatening burning plastic that could catch on fire. YAAAAAAYYYYY!!!!
#21
Sooo i changed my coils and my spark plugs of course and the only thing else that i needed to do was check and see if the cat was clogged. well i took it off today and what do i find? the cat was already punched out!!!! btw changing the coils and plus did not stop my CEL from flashing when i rev the engine to about 7000RPM+. im thinking it just has to do with the O2 sensor. I did order a new cat as well. hopefully no more CEL for me!
#24
are you ordering a mazda rx8 cat? or a generic aftermarket cat?
Because a generic cat will last you about a few hundred miles....
take the opportunity of having a bat cat to upgrade to a midpipe, solve the cat problem and gain power, for a cheaper price than buying a oem cat that will just fail again.
Because a generic cat will last you about a few hundred miles....
take the opportunity of having a bat cat to upgrade to a midpipe, solve the cat problem and gain power, for a cheaper price than buying a oem cat that will just fail again.
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