is the mazda dealer trying to rip me off!!!
04-02-2010, 08:33 PM
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is the mazda dealer trying to rip me off!!!
well heres my story in a short sum....i bought my 04 rx-8 from the dealer next to me and ever since i got it every yr i have to get it towed down there and everytime its been flooded new pugs and wires and labor over 200 and some....last yr car wouldnt start tryed to de-flood wouldnt work towed it down there again and they told me the ECU went and put a new one in cost me $1800 total...6 months later (now)...im taking the car out of storage and wont start again towed it down there again and now after 4 to 5 hr of labor already the car was flooded put new plugs n parts and said its not GETTING ANY SPARK AND THAT I NEED A NEW STARTER!???..........so i ask you are they fu@king my azz out or what?
04-02-2010, 09:00 PM
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well the plugs and parts they just changed this time and it still doesnt start and now there saying it MIGHT be the starter!...wft how can you not know what it is right?
04-02-2010, 09:26 PM
#5
they just Randomly throwing parts at it and hope it fixes the problem
but what im thinking now is you might have a bad engine ... have you ever ask them to check the compression ?
04-02-2010, 11:13 PM
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unless the techs there are deaf, they would've know if the starter is "fast/good" enough to start the engine (at least I can tell between a good speed and slow speed)
they just Randomly throwing parts at it and hope it fixes the problem
but what im thinking now is you might have a bad engine ... have you ever ask them to check the compression ?
they just Randomly throwing parts at it and hope it fixes the problem
but what im thinking now is you might have a bad engine ... have you ever ask them to check the compression ?
04-03-2010, 07:02 AM
#9
First thing, next time anything happens to your car, run it by this forum FIRST. The experts on this forum know way more **** than those ********* at your dealership.
Second thing, there's got to be someone on this forum who lives near you who can demonstrate for you how to deflood. Over 6 years, I've managed to flood my car 3 times. The first time was several years ago and was my fault. The last two times were close together in 2009 but I felt it wasn't blatantly my fault (possibly spark plugs need replacement). Anyway, each time, I deflooded myself. Of course, the first time was the hardest, but once I knew how, it's pretty easy and not that time consuming actually.
Second thing, there's got to be someone on this forum who lives near you who can demonstrate for you how to deflood. Over 6 years, I've managed to flood my car 3 times. The first time was several years ago and was my fault. The last two times were close together in 2009 but I felt it wasn't blatantly my fault (possibly spark plugs need replacement). Anyway, each time, I deflooded myself. Of course, the first time was the hardest, but once I knew how, it's pretty easy and not that time consuming actually.
04-03-2010, 07:48 AM
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99.99999% of flooding on RX-8s now is entirely due to a weak ignition on attempting to start, and the resulting spark isn't enough to get the engine going, so it floods out.
If your battery is weak/dying/dead, trying to start the car is pumping fuel in but might not have a strong enough spark due to lack of electrical current. Flood.
If your starter is weak/dying/dead, then it can't spin the engine fast enough during starting to go through the proper cycles of combusion, essentially stalling the engine out, with fuel getting pumped in. Flood.
If your coils are weak/dying/dead, then they can't convert the battery's electrical power to the high voltage needed to cause a spark at the spark plug, with fuel getting pumped in. Flood.
If your wires are weak/broken/damaged, then they aren't getting the electrical power from the coils down to the plugs properly, and you have no-spark at the engine, with fuel getting pumped in. Flood.
If your plugs are degraded/fouled/damaged, then they can't use the current coming from the battery, coils and wires properly, resulting in weak or no spark, with fuel getting pumped in. Flood.
In all cases, it is still entirely possible to de-flood yourself. There are several DIY threads on here for it, though Alfy's variant is the best (in my opinion)
Coils cost $140 from vendors here, and is a 20min job yourself with basic tools.
Plugs cost $80 from vendors here or Amazon.com (seriously), and is a 10-15 min job yourself with the right plug socket, some extensions, and a ratchet.
Wire prices are all over the place ($40 to $200+), with the higher priced ones being more durable, lasting longer, etc... less than 5 minutes to change, no tools needed.
If your starter is indeed failing, getting a new one and replacing it yourself will save you alot of money.
The new ECU was a straight up *** rape. Likely all they did was reflash the existing one.
If your 8 isn't starting though, use some diagnosis on it to see what the problem part is. Nothing techs do that you can't in your driveway/parkinglot/garage:
1 - insert key, turn to On
- If you have dash lights, then you have an electrical connection (not battery terminal issue)
2 - Turn key to Start
- If the dash lights go away without any sound at all, your battery is too dead to run anything. It might be a complete starter failure. test the battery voltage to be sure. Get a friend/relative, have them hold a multimeter to the battery (the leads to the terminals obviously) while you crank. If the voltage is above 12v without you cranking, but drops below 12v while you crank, the battery is weak. If the voltage doesn't move at all, then the power isn't getting to the starter. If the voltage stays above 12v, but does dip when you crank, congratulations, you have ruled out your battery.
- If there is a cranking sound, but it sounds slower than normal, strained, and you have confirmed a good battery, then your starter is probably dying.
- If there is a cranking sound you usually here (the starter), but nothing else, then either it's a lack of fuel or lack of spark. (flooding is typical, though you have the same result if you pull the fuel pump fuse and try cranking)
There is literally no mechanical hardware on this car that the dealer has to replace that you can't. Electronics are mostly on them. Mechanicals are entirely doable by you. Mazda made this car ridiculously easy to work on. Stop shoveling money at the dealer.
This is reverse prostitution!
If your battery is weak/dying/dead, trying to start the car is pumping fuel in but might not have a strong enough spark due to lack of electrical current. Flood.
If your starter is weak/dying/dead, then it can't spin the engine fast enough during starting to go through the proper cycles of combusion, essentially stalling the engine out, with fuel getting pumped in. Flood.
If your coils are weak/dying/dead, then they can't convert the battery's electrical power to the high voltage needed to cause a spark at the spark plug, with fuel getting pumped in. Flood.
If your wires are weak/broken/damaged, then they aren't getting the electrical power from the coils down to the plugs properly, and you have no-spark at the engine, with fuel getting pumped in. Flood.
If your plugs are degraded/fouled/damaged, then they can't use the current coming from the battery, coils and wires properly, resulting in weak or no spark, with fuel getting pumped in. Flood.
In all cases, it is still entirely possible to de-flood yourself. There are several DIY threads on here for it, though Alfy's variant is the best (in my opinion)
Coils cost $140 from vendors here, and is a 20min job yourself with basic tools.
Plugs cost $80 from vendors here or Amazon.com (seriously), and is a 10-15 min job yourself with the right plug socket, some extensions, and a ratchet.
Wire prices are all over the place ($40 to $200+), with the higher priced ones being more durable, lasting longer, etc... less than 5 minutes to change, no tools needed.
If your starter is indeed failing, getting a new one and replacing it yourself will save you alot of money.
The new ECU was a straight up *** rape. Likely all they did was reflash the existing one.
If your 8 isn't starting though, use some diagnosis on it to see what the problem part is. Nothing techs do that you can't in your driveway/parkinglot/garage:
1 - insert key, turn to On
- If you have dash lights, then you have an electrical connection (not battery terminal issue)
2 - Turn key to Start
- If the dash lights go away without any sound at all, your battery is too dead to run anything. It might be a complete starter failure. test the battery voltage to be sure. Get a friend/relative, have them hold a multimeter to the battery (the leads to the terminals obviously) while you crank. If the voltage is above 12v without you cranking, but drops below 12v while you crank, the battery is weak. If the voltage doesn't move at all, then the power isn't getting to the starter. If the voltage stays above 12v, but does dip when you crank, congratulations, you have ruled out your battery.
- If there is a cranking sound, but it sounds slower than normal, strained, and you have confirmed a good battery, then your starter is probably dying.
- If there is a cranking sound you usually here (the starter), but nothing else, then either it's a lack of fuel or lack of spark. (flooding is typical, though you have the same result if you pull the fuel pump fuse and try cranking)
There is literally no mechanical hardware on this car that the dealer has to replace that you can't. Electronics are mostly on them. Mechanicals are entirely doable by you. Mazda made this car ridiculously easy to work on. Stop shoveling money at the dealer.
This is reverse prostitution!
04-03-2010, 09:39 AM
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99.99999% of flooding on RX-8s now is entirely due to a weak ignition on attempting to start, and the resulting spark isn't enough to get the engine going, so it floods out.
If your battery is weak/dying/dead, trying to start the car is pumping fuel in but might not have a strong enough spark due to lack of electrical current. Flood.
If your starter is weak/dying/dead, then it can't spin the engine fast enough during starting to go through the proper cycles of combusion, essentially stalling the engine out, with fuel getting pumped in. Flood.
If your coils are weak/dying/dead, then they can't convert the battery's electrical power to the high voltage needed to cause a spark at the spark plug, with fuel getting pumped in. Flood.
If your wires are weak/broken/damaged, then they aren't getting the electrical power from the coils down to the plugs properly, and you have no-spark at the engine, with fuel getting pumped in. Flood.
If your plugs are degraded/fouled/damaged, then they can't use the current coming from the battery, coils and wires properly, resulting in weak or no spark, with fuel getting pumped in. Flood.
In all cases, it is still entirely possible to de-flood yourself. There are several DIY threads on here for it, though Alfy's variant is the best (in my opinion)
Coils cost $140 from vendors here, and is a 20min job yourself with basic tools.
Plugs cost $80 from vendors here or Amazon.com (seriously), and is a 10-15 min job yourself with the right plug socket, some extensions, and a ratchet.
Wire prices are all over the place ($40 to $200+), with the higher priced ones being more durable, lasting longer, etc... less than 5 minutes to change, no tools needed.
If your starter is indeed failing, getting a new one and replacing it yourself will save you alot of money.
The new ECU was a straight up *** rape. Likely all they did was reflash the existing one.
If your 8 isn't starting though, use some diagnosis on it to see what the problem part is. Nothing techs do that you can't in your driveway/parkinglot/garage:
1 - insert key, turn to On
- If you have dash lights, then you have an electrical connection (not battery terminal issue)
2 - Turn key to Start
- If the dash lights go away without any sound at all, your battery is too dead to run anything. It might be a complete starter failure. test the battery voltage to be sure. Get a friend/relative, have them hold a multimeter to the battery (the leads to the terminals obviously) while you crank. If the voltage is above 12v without you cranking, but drops below 12v while you crank, the battery is weak. If the voltage doesn't move at all, then the power isn't getting to the starter. If the voltage stays above 12v, but does dip when you crank, congratulations, you have ruled out your battery.
- If there is a cranking sound, but it sounds slower than normal, strained, and you have confirmed a good battery, then your starter is probably dying.
- If there is a cranking sound you usually here (the starter), but nothing else, then either it's a lack of fuel or lack of spark. (flooding is typical, though you have the same result if you pull the fuel pump fuse and try cranking)
There is literally no mechanical hardware on this car that the dealer has to replace that you can't. Electronics are mostly on them. Mechanicals are entirely doable by you. Mazda made this car ridiculously easy to work on. Stop shoveling money at the dealer.
This is reverse prostitution!
If your battery is weak/dying/dead, trying to start the car is pumping fuel in but might not have a strong enough spark due to lack of electrical current. Flood.
If your starter is weak/dying/dead, then it can't spin the engine fast enough during starting to go through the proper cycles of combusion, essentially stalling the engine out, with fuel getting pumped in. Flood.
If your coils are weak/dying/dead, then they can't convert the battery's electrical power to the high voltage needed to cause a spark at the spark plug, with fuel getting pumped in. Flood.
If your wires are weak/broken/damaged, then they aren't getting the electrical power from the coils down to the plugs properly, and you have no-spark at the engine, with fuel getting pumped in. Flood.
If your plugs are degraded/fouled/damaged, then they can't use the current coming from the battery, coils and wires properly, resulting in weak or no spark, with fuel getting pumped in. Flood.
In all cases, it is still entirely possible to de-flood yourself. There are several DIY threads on here for it, though Alfy's variant is the best (in my opinion)
Coils cost $140 from vendors here, and is a 20min job yourself with basic tools.
Plugs cost $80 from vendors here or Amazon.com (seriously), and is a 10-15 min job yourself with the right plug socket, some extensions, and a ratchet.
Wire prices are all over the place ($40 to $200+), with the higher priced ones being more durable, lasting longer, etc... less than 5 minutes to change, no tools needed.
If your starter is indeed failing, getting a new one and replacing it yourself will save you alot of money.
The new ECU was a straight up *** rape. Likely all they did was reflash the existing one.
If your 8 isn't starting though, use some diagnosis on it to see what the problem part is. Nothing techs do that you can't in your driveway/parkinglot/garage:
1 - insert key, turn to On
- If you have dash lights, then you have an electrical connection (not battery terminal issue)
2 - Turn key to Start
- If the dash lights go away without any sound at all, your battery is too dead to run anything. It might be a complete starter failure. test the battery voltage to be sure. Get a friend/relative, have them hold a multimeter to the battery (the leads to the terminals obviously) while you crank. If the voltage is above 12v without you cranking, but drops below 12v while you crank, the battery is weak. If the voltage doesn't move at all, then the power isn't getting to the starter. If the voltage stays above 12v, but does dip when you crank, congratulations, you have ruled out your battery.
- If there is a cranking sound, but it sounds slower than normal, strained, and you have confirmed a good battery, then your starter is probably dying.
- If there is a cranking sound you usually here (the starter), but nothing else, then either it's a lack of fuel or lack of spark. (flooding is typical, though you have the same result if you pull the fuel pump fuse and try cranking)
There is literally no mechanical hardware on this car that the dealer has to replace that you can't. Electronics are mostly on them. Mechanicals are entirely doable by you. Mazda made this car ridiculously easy to work on. Stop shoveling money at the dealer.
This is reverse prostitution!
04-03-2010, 12:18 PM
#12
the only thing thats not replaceable by the end user is the ECU itself. (or shall I say the program in it ?)
it can fail, but it hardly happen.
and if it does fail, the car will most likely still work (yep, weird) but probably in limp mode + CEL is on, but you will not be able to get the CEL out cuz its not connecting (OBD II port no connection)
but ... your case ... it sounds like the dealership raped you really hard ...
it can fail, but it hardly happen.
and if it does fail, the car will most likely still work (yep, weird) but probably in limp mode + CEL is on, but you will not be able to get the CEL out cuz its not connecting (OBD II port no connection)
but ... your case ... it sounds like the dealership raped you really hard ...
04-03-2010, 01:07 PM
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the only thing thats not replaceable by the end user is the ECU itself. (or shall I say the program in it ?)
it can fail, but it hardly happen.
and if it does fail, the car will most likely still work (yep, weird) but probably in limp mode + CEL is on, but you will not be able to get the CEL out cuz its not connecting (OBD II port no connection)
but ... your case ... it sounds like the dealership raped you really hard ...
it can fail, but it hardly happen.
and if it does fail, the car will most likely still work (yep, weird) but probably in limp mode + CEL is on, but you will not be able to get the CEL out cuz its not connecting (OBD II port no connection)
but ... your case ... it sounds like the dealership raped you really hard ...
04-07-2010, 09:48 AM
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got the car back yesterday and i guess the new starter i got works great i dont have to hold the key down for like 3sec now it starts as soon as i turn it....but trust me i bitch those guys out and got 3 hrs of labor knocked off and a free oil change..lol
04-08-2010, 12:29 PM
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I can tell you a little story about Mazda dealers and rotaries. The first thing I did when I got my FD3S RX7 seven years ago was take it to Mazda to make sure all the recalls were done on it. The car drove to the dealer just fine and was running great I only had 44k miles on it. I called often to find out what was going on with the car and they kept feeding me lines of BS about the car having problems. I got the thing back 6 weeks later and they had actually put 100 miles on the car and crashed it into a curb destroying the R1 lip that was on it. When I was like "What the *** is this?" they had claimed that I brought the car in like that. My mistake was having no evidence to the contrary so I couldn't get any money out of them for it. On my way home from the dealer the car was making some seriously weird noises and was puttering back to my house. At this time I was a fresh new rotary owner and had no idea what was wrong with the car. I found the closest rotary shop to me which was T&R Racing and they fixed the car and changed the clutch (it needed that anyway) in a couple hours. I got it back working great. It turns out the problem with it was pretty simple: One of the hoses to the intercooler was disconnected and hanging loose and the vacuum line to the MAP sensor was disconnected. I still believe that those were acts of sabotage so that I would have to take my car back to that dealership. Anyway, the moral of the story is don't trust the dealer. Go to rotary mechanics (what I did) or learn to work on your own car (What I do now)
Last edited by DriftWood; 04-08-2010 at 12:50 PM. Reason: fix spelling
04-09-2010, 07:15 AM
#17
I can tell you a little story about Mazda dealers and rotaries. The first thing I did when I got my FD3S RX7 seven years ago was take it to Mazda to make sure all the recalls were done on it. The car drove to the dealer just fine and was running great I only had 44k miles on it. I called often to find out what was going on with the car and they kept feeding me lines of BS about the car having problems. I got the thing back 6 weeks later and they had actually put 100 miles on the car and crashed it into a curb destroying the R1 lip that was on it. When I was like "What the *** is this?" they had claimed that I brought the car in like that. My mistake was having no evidence to the contrary so I couldn't get any money out of them for it. On my way home from the dealer the car was making some seriously weird noises and was puttering back to my house. At this time I was a fresh new rotary owner and had no idea what was wrong with the car. I found the closest rotary shop to me which was T&R Racing and they fixed the car and changed the clutch (it needed that anyway) in a couple hours. I got it back working great. It turns out the problem with it was pretty simple: One of the hoses to the intercooler was disconnected and hanging loose and the vacuum line to the MAP sensor was disconnected. I still believe that those were acts of sabotage so that I would have to take my car back to that dealership. Anyway, the moral of the story is don't trust the dealer. Go to rotary mechanics (what I did) or learn to work on your own car (What I do now)
Finding one would be hard ... as big as NYC I dont think there is any well known Rotary shop.
04-09-2010, 08:14 AM
#19
that's crazy, well to share my story I took mine to the dealer for compression test, waited 2 weeks they said my car falls into the engine warranty, 1 week later i receive a call from the dealer stating I have nearly $7,000 on repair , I was pissed so I asked them to send me by email the diagnostic and also an excel spreadsheet with all the parts involved in the $7000 repair.
1st - they tell me all the gaskets aren't covered by the engine warranty = $260 I had to pay them since it was necesary for them to replace the engine.
2nd - They said I had the old starter and they wanted $1100 , I got me an updated version for $200
3rd - Radiator and reservoir tank all together $1200 - I told them I have a aluminium radiator and cleared that with them, the Tech said when they replace the engine almost 80% chance the radiator breaks, I told them it's not my fault, they admitted adding the radiator was a mistake.
4th - they also stated I needed new plugs, wires, coils $725 , I told them they were crazy cause I just purchased them in December and the car hasn't been used no more than 1000 miles and they aren't even 2 months old since I didnt have any compression. I told them when they install my new engine I will like to test my parts and guess what ? they worked fine and they accepted it was a mistake.
5th - they said my rack and pinion was bad also and that it needs to be replaced $2500, i reviewed with the tech personally and cleaned out the conections and the steering is just fine. They also accepted it was a mistake.
6th - after 1 month of them having my car and them sending me a report of all the parts required for replacement, I was told two selenoid sensors went bad and that parts & labor will be $845, I claimed them that since day one I received the diagnostic report and after a month the car being there , how can this be default, the tech showed be the selenoid and it appears they broke the clip and it wont stay installed, after a few days with emails and phone calls with my lawyer , they decided to replace all 3 for free
7th - they also said my catalytic converter went bad and that it needs to be replaced, $1200 I told them no thanks I'd prefer to get a good used one and so I did get one for $250 taken out from a 2007
So bottom line is , YES the Dealer will try to assume some parts need to be replace and never fix the problem, however there are very good TECH's but they obey what the service departments allow them to do and tell the client. Be carefull I only spent roughly $700 compared to $7000 they wanted from the beggining....
1st - they tell me all the gaskets aren't covered by the engine warranty = $260 I had to pay them since it was necesary for them to replace the engine.
2nd - They said I had the old starter and they wanted $1100 , I got me an updated version for $200
3rd - Radiator and reservoir tank all together $1200 - I told them I have a aluminium radiator and cleared that with them, the Tech said when they replace the engine almost 80% chance the radiator breaks, I told them it's not my fault, they admitted adding the radiator was a mistake.
4th - they also stated I needed new plugs, wires, coils $725 , I told them they were crazy cause I just purchased them in December and the car hasn't been used no more than 1000 miles and they aren't even 2 months old since I didnt have any compression. I told them when they install my new engine I will like to test my parts and guess what ? they worked fine and they accepted it was a mistake.
5th - they said my rack and pinion was bad also and that it needs to be replaced $2500, i reviewed with the tech personally and cleaned out the conections and the steering is just fine. They also accepted it was a mistake.
6th - after 1 month of them having my car and them sending me a report of all the parts required for replacement, I was told two selenoid sensors went bad and that parts & labor will be $845, I claimed them that since day one I received the diagnostic report and after a month the car being there , how can this be default, the tech showed be the selenoid and it appears they broke the clip and it wont stay installed, after a few days with emails and phone calls with my lawyer , they decided to replace all 3 for free
7th - they also said my catalytic converter went bad and that it needs to be replaced, $1200 I told them no thanks I'd prefer to get a good used one and so I did get one for $250 taken out from a 2007
So bottom line is , YES the Dealer will try to assume some parts need to be replace and never fix the problem, however there are very good TECH's but they obey what the service departments allow them to do and tell the client. Be carefull I only spent roughly $700 compared to $7000 they wanted from the beggining....
04-09-2010, 08:21 AM
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That's where T&R Racing is. They are in Queens and very cool guys. The other one near NYC is IR Performance. Another good shop. Both shops have good service and honest people.
04-09-2010, 12:10 PM
#22
Im totally a noob, but I have had experience with the flooding. Not as drastic as this, but occassionaly when I start and stop the engine, and the weather is cold I will have difficulty starting and flooding the engine. I did come to the conclusion that a new battery solved most of my problems, as I noticed a low battery wasnt turning the engine like it would on a new battery, and the engine would flood. With my new battery I havent had any issues leaving the car sit for a couple weeks. It starts better than ever now with the new battery.
Even with a normal warm start on a the bad battery, it would seem to flood as well, not just when I was neglegent and started it and shut it off too soon.
hope you get it figured out. Unless you have some warranty with that dealer, I would have someone else take a look at it.
Even with a normal warm start on a the bad battery, it would seem to flood as well, not just when I was neglegent and started it and shut it off too soon.
hope you get it figured out. Unless you have some warranty with that dealer, I would have someone else take a look at it.
04-09-2010, 12:21 PM
#23
The engine is very Voltage/Starter speed dependent when starting....
A poor battery is the first upgrade if you are having starting issues....a new starter should be second after you are sure the starter is getting enough voltage in the first place...
You can have the new starter..and no voltage to run it....won't get you anywhere...
A poor battery is the first upgrade if you are having starting issues....a new starter should be second after you are sure the starter is getting enough voltage in the first place...
You can have the new starter..and no voltage to run it....won't get you anywhere...
04-10-2010, 08:02 AM
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thanks for everyone writing in this thread....yeah i wouldnt take it to the dealer if i can find someone around here that knows rotarys im in PA so theres noone by me that i know of ive been looking so if anyone knows any let me kno.
04-10-2010, 08:24 AM
#25
weeeeeeeeee
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KDR (www.kdrotary.com) is about 80 miles south of you. Also it looks like you could swing into NJ or NY where I believe there are some decent dealers.
Changing plugs (and even coils) are fairly trivial activities. Unflooding can be done without have to do either... you just need to set aside a couple hours and follow the procedures.
Ever notice how you can never find a car salesman for a couple weeks after they sell you a car? It's because they're on vacation spending the commission they earned ripping you off.
Changing plugs (and even coils) are fairly trivial activities. Unflooding can be done without have to do either... you just need to set aside a couple hours and follow the procedures.
Ever notice how you can never find a car salesman for a couple weeks after they sell you a car? It's because they're on vacation spending the commission they earned ripping you off.