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Paul, check your PM. :)
hell, I might add this mod to my order :) |
Originally Posted by Nemesis8
(Post 3404527)
I'm batting 3 for 4 off that page. :cool:
Call me when you get a chance. I have a few things to discuss with you. Paul. |
Originally Posted by jmc23200
(Post 3404552)
Go figure. When an owner can rebuild his own engine, he can treat it like shit(not saying you do) and it will last forever. Then you give it to me or someone else and we do all the "necessary" tricks, and we get 40k out of it. Gotta love the way things work. It's like the car just knows lol
I also have the Mazmart water pump. Why do you suppose that both Mazmart and BHR offer few items for the RX-8? Neither of us wish to offer useless, blingy, things that are not actual improvements. We also promote one another's product for that same reason. Except I pay Paul more than he pays me but that is another story........ :lol2: |
^ .... and I like Paul's projection better than Ray's: "...RX8s do not typically have engines fail by 50k (Even 04-05s)...." ;)
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Originally Posted by Charles R. Hill
(Post 3404544)
My OMP volumes are not "maxxed" but they are about 3x what Mazda proscribed with the factory PCM.
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Originally Posted by robrecht
(Post 3404680)
Thanks. When one uses the AP to adjust OMP rates, how much flexibility is there? For example, can you you increase the rate differently at higher RPM or higher loads? Can you control the flow rate when there's minimal load and no gas being injected? Sorry if that's a dumb question, I'm known for those.
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Originally Posted by nycgps
(Post 3404802)
Yes you can.
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Yeah, I am on the fence about the AP.
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Best I can tell, the AP is the best way to tune the typical and not so typical RX8. Anything else is quite expensive and not discreet.
Paul. |
Originally Posted by Charles R. Hill
(Post 3404563)
There are only a few simple mods that actually do some good for the Renesis/RX-8, improve longevity, and/or add power. This Mazmart mod may end up helping longevity. Maybe this product is why I have been able to abuse my engine by flooring it at 9,500 RPMs under load for 15 minutes and it still runs like a champ? :dunno:
I also have the Mazmart water pump. Why do you suppose that both Mazmart and BHR offer few items for the RX-8? Neither of us wish to offer useless, blingy, things that are not actual improvements. We also promote one another's product for that same reason. Except I pay Paul more than he pays me but that is another story........ :lol2: Paul. :) |
Originally Posted by robrecht
(Post 3405420)
That's very cool. With the AP, a Sohn adapter, and a good tuner like MM who's knowledgable about rotaries, I would see no need for premix on a 2009+. But it will always be cheaper to simply use premix as insurance instead of investing in these mods/tuning. It will be interesting to see Ray Charles' next rebuild WRT to the necessity of premix on the Series I with AP and Sohn adapter.
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Well I just got the Hymee so I will play with it for a while and see whats up with Protuner vs. AP.
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Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8
(Post 3405448)
Well I just got the Hymee so I will play with it for a while and see whats up with Protuner vs. AP.
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Originally Posted by plain ole wanker
(Post 3405445)
Can't use either (AP, a Sohn adapter) on S2. All that can be done is to premix S2's for precautionary measures. :fingersx:
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Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8
(Post 3405448)
Well I just got the Hymee so I will play with it for a while and see whats up with Protuner vs. AP.
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uh oh?
:) Have yall thought about what Paul has said? They really havent seen engine FAILURE due to poor lubrication. They have seen wear/tear from lubrication issues that would sooner or later result in engine failure if not addressed. The enige FAILURES are more from carboning/gunk issues if i remember correctly. Weird-- but i am having more omp oil useage since i installed the Paul's Pump em Up. I dont know how that happened--I am probably just crazy. |
Originally Posted by Mazmart
(Post 3404518)
Now to the oil pressure mod kit: Extra oil pressure is a good thing on these motors, especially those driven harder and with extra loads being applied (Forced induction and tracked cars especially) when it results in 'proper' oil flow and improves motor cooling characteristics. I think it can only help with the excessive bearing wear that we've seen. I still put the main blame for that wear on oil viscosity choice since we've seen automatic motors with it as well (Generally not seeing as much high revs and or hard driving). Sharp people here have pointed out that these engines do run the lowest oil pressures that Mazda has run in a while and we are bringing that to the range it was at some point. Paul. However, what will change the oil pressure below this value is using a heavier weight oil. Based on what I've measured (given a low statistical uncertainty), I'd say that going from a 20W to a 40W oil raised the pressure at 3000 rpm by about 5-7 psi. (The difference at idle was too small to call.) Pressure is pressure and not flow. If one thinks of this as an Ohms Law type circuit where Current = Voltage/Resistance, the garden hose analogy is Flow=Pressure/Resistance (the units are wrong, but the idea is right.) In that analogy, increasing the oil pressure by increasing the oil weight will result in a reduced flow. However, this isn't right for the engine case, because the oil pump is a constant displacement system, until the bypasses open. Up to this point, the system after the oil pump is in complete hydraulic lock until it has flowed through the engine and is released into the sump; the flow rate for any given rpm is completely fixed while in this mode. This means that at an rpm below the opening pressure of the bypass system neither the oil pressure mod, nor the increased viscosity have any effect on flow compared to the stock system. Once the bypass opens, there is no further increase in pressure with increasing rpm, but more importantly, there is no further increase in flow! The post-oil pump system is no longer "locked" but is "open". Therefore, since increasing oil viscosity increases pressure, the bypass opens earlier than with the lighter viscosity, meaning that the oil flow is less than it would otherwise be for this transition region. So somewhere between 4-5,000 rpm, going from 20W to 40W is actually reducing flow. We spend a lot of time in this region too, ladies and gents. The Mazmart mod allows the flow to increase with rpm much longer than with the stock system. (It was 94 psi @ 6,000 rpm for me, and still increasing, but I didn't go any higher in this short test). What's the upper limit, Paul? It also allows running higher viscosity oil without pay a flow penalty in the 4-5k rpm band. It will have no effect on flow compared to stock below about 4k rpm. How's my thought process here? |
Originally Posted by HiFlite999
(Post 3406361)
How's my thought process here?
You're trying to strain my poor brain. At a quick glance, you appear to be making sensible assessments. The upper limits with our mod? Safe :fingersx: Max at 120 perhaps, it depends on where you're reading, type of guages etc etc. Paul. |
Originally Posted by Nemesis8
(Post 3405489)
(side note - That was not Protuner you purchased. Is that what you thought I was selling?)
:rollingla oops |
Originally Posted by Nemesis8
(Post 3405489)
(side note - That was not Protuner you purchased. Is that what you thought I was selling?)
:lol: No I know it's not man :lol: This was good deal but that would have been the deal of a lifetime. The scanalyser will be a toy to play with until I get into the Protuner. In getting the Scanalyser I have read up a lot and pretty much decided to go with the Protuner over the AP. |
Originally Posted by robrecht
(Post 3405458)
Curious why you chose that over an MM AP?
I'd rather not get in to that in this thread but PM if you have any input and want to discuss it :) |
Hiflite - You state that there is going to be a flow decrease going from 20-40 weight oil in the 4-5k range. So by saying that, is the 0-4k, and 5k-9k range staying the same?
I'm not so familiar with how the bypass works (read: I'm stupid, and am getting lost in this discussion). So let me explain what I understand: Before the bypass opens - the flow is a constant rate defined by oil pump Bypass opens - oil flow is diverted? Sorry for being dense lol.. |
Originally Posted by JinDesu
(Post 3406824)
Hiflite - You state that there is going to be a flow decrease going from 20-40 weight oil in the 4-5k range. So by saying that, is the 0-4k, and 5k-9k range staying the same? for 0-4k yes ... and you got me thinking about 5k-9k, see below
I'm not so familiar with how the bypass works (read: I'm stupid, and am getting lost in this discussion). So let me explain what I understand: Before the bypass opens - the flow is a constant rate defined by oil pump Bypass opens - oil flow is diverted? yes Sorry for being dense lol.. it's a complicated subject Above 4-5k rpm, in terms of *flow*, I'm not absolutely sure what happens when comparing 40W vs 20W, but am suspecting that one also gets a reduction in flow with 40W vs 20W. Let's try an intuitive analogy. Imagine your garden hose connected to a city water plant, where the pressure in your pipes is say 80 psi in the case where there is no water flow at all. If you measure the pressure just before the nozzle of the hose, it will read 80 psi with everything shut off. Open the nozzle a little, the pressure will drop a little and the water shoots out a great distance but with very low volume moving per second. (Think squirt gun.) If you want to fill a bucket, open the nozzle wide, the flow goes up, but the pressure drops. Now tee into the hose, and put a pressure regulator upstream of the nozzle, that controls the water pressure in the hose to 80 psi by letting enough water out before reaching the nozzle. Open the nozzle "midway". In the analogy, this is our car, where the hose nozzle represents the resistance of bearings and oil passages to flow. If we increase the house pressure to 120 psi, the flow through the nozzle remains the same, because the pressure in the hose is held constant by the open regulator. If we drop the house pressure below 80 psi, the regulator entirely closes, but the flow drops because it can't add any pressure to maintain it. Go back to a house pressure of 120 psi The bypass is open and the hose sees 80 psi. (analogous to running say 7k rpm in the car).Now suppose the water company decides to pump chocolate syrup at 120 psi, and the slug of syrup makes it's way through the system. When the slug hits the nozzle, what happens? The resistance to flow increases and the hose pressure tries to increase, but is stopped at 80 psi by the regulator. Then what happens? The flow is reduced. The viscosity difference between water and syrup is of course much larger than between 20W and 40W oil, but I'm thinking the conclusion must be the same: When the system is pressure regulated (above that 4-5k rpm range), the higher the oil viscosity, the lower the flow. Other factors come into play of course, having to do with the details of oil lubrication properties, and flow does not immediately connect with lubrication, otherwise why not run 0W oil? The flow considerations do suggest however that going from 20W to 40W oil alone is not the unconditional benefit it seems at first. If however, one does the Mazmart mod, it moves the oil system into a constant-displacement mode (flow related only to rpm) for essentially the entire operating band of the engine, with both 20W and 40W oils. It seems to me to be a really good idea. (I might change my mind if I see the oil filter shooting through the hood at 9k revs though --- just kidding!) |
Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8
(Post 3406817)
I'd rather not get in to that in this thread but PM if you have any input and want to discuss it :)
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Originally Posted by HiFlite999
(Post 3407005)
, otherwise why not run 0W oil? The flow considerations do suggest however that going from 20W to 40W oil alone is not the unconditional benefit it seems at first.
If however, one does the Mazmart mod, it moves the oil system into a constant-displacement mode (flow related only to rpm) for essentially the entire operating band of the engine, with both 20W and 40W oils. It seems to me to be a really good idea. (I might change my mind if I see the oil filter shooting through the hood at 9k revs though --- just kidding!) Please film any flying filters you encounter :rofl:. Paul. |
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