nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Paul, check your PM.

hell, I might add this mod to my order

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

Call me when you get a chance. I have a few things to discuss with you.

Paul.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

There are only a few simple mods that actually do some good for the Renesis/RX-8, improve longevity, and/or add power. This Mazmart mod may end up helping longevity. Maybe this product is why I have been able to abuse my engine by flooring it at 9,500 RPMs under load for 15 minutes and it still runs like a champ?

I also have the Mazmart water pump.

Why do you suppose that both Mazmart and BHR offer few items for the RX-8? Neither of us wish to offer useless, blingy, things that are not actual improvements. We also promote one another's product for that same reason. Except I pay Paul more than he pays me but that is another story........

Huey52

iTrader: (2)

^ .... and I like Paul's projection better than Ray's: "...RX8s do not typically have engines fail by 50k (Even 04-05s)...."

robrecht

Thanks. When one uses the AP to adjust OMP rates, how much flexibility is there? For example, can you you increase the rate differently at higher RPM or higher loads? Can you control the flow rate when there's minimal load and no gas being injected? Sorry if that's a dumb question, I'm known for those.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Yes you can.

robrecht

That's very cool. With the AP, a Sohn adapter, and a good tuner like MM who's knowledgable about rotaries, I would see no need for premix on a 2009+. But it will always be cheaper to simply use premix as insurance instead of investing in these mods/tuning. It will be interesting to see Ray Charles' next rebuild WRT to the necessity of premix on the Series I with AP and Sohn adapter.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Yeah, I am on the fence about the AP.

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

Best I can tell, the AP is the best way to tune the typical and not so typical RX8. Anything else is quite expensive and not discreet.

Paul.

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

Charles, you know I love you brother.

Paul.

plain ole wanker

Can't use either (AP, a Sohn adapter) on S2. All that can be done is to premix S2's for precautionary measures.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Well I just got the Hymee so I will play with it for a while and see whats up with Protuner vs. AP.

robrecht

Curious why you chose that over an MM AP?

robrecht

... yet!

Nemesis8

iTrader: (3)

(side note - That was not Protuner you purchased. Is that what you thought I was selling?)

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

uh oh?

Have yall thought about what Paul has said?
They really havent seen engine FAILURE due to poor lubrication. They have seen wear/tear from lubrication issues that would sooner or later result in engine failure if not addressed.
The enige FAILURES are more from carboning/gunk issues if i remember correctly.
Weird-- but i am having more omp oil useage since i installed the Paul's Pump em Up. I dont know how that happened--I am probably just crazy.

HiFlite999

iTrader: (2)

The thing I remain potentially confused on is the following. From what I'm seeing, the op mod only affects oil pressures above about 4500 rpm where the stock system starts bypassing oil flow directly into the sump. Much of our running time is below 4500 rpm.

However, what will change the oil pressure below this value is using a heavier weight oil. Based on what I've measured (given a low statistical uncertainty), I'd say that going from a 20W to a 40W oil raised the pressure at 3000 rpm by about 5-7 psi. (The difference at idle was too small to call.)

Pressure is pressure and not flow. If one thinks of this as an Ohms Law type circuit where Current = Voltage/Resistance, the garden hose analogy is Flow=Pressure/Resistance (the units are wrong, but the idea is right.) In that analogy, increasing the oil pressure by increasing the oil weight will result in a reduced flow. However, this isn't right for the engine case, because the oil pump is a constant displacement system, until the bypasses open. Up to this point, the system after the oil pump is in complete hydraulic lock until it has flowed through the engine and is released into the sump; the flow rate for any given rpm is completely fixed while in this mode.

This means that at an rpm below the opening pressure of the bypass system neither the oil pressure mod, nor the increased viscosity have any effect on flow compared to the stock system.

Once the bypass opens, there is no further increase in pressure with increasing rpm, but more importantly, there is no further increase in flow! The post-oil pump system is no longer "locked" but is "open".

Therefore, since increasing oil viscosity increases pressure, the bypass opens earlier than with the lighter viscosity, meaning that the oil flow is less than it would otherwise be for this transition region. So somewhere between 4-5,000 rpm, going from 20W to 40W is actually reducing flow. We spend a lot of time in this region too, ladies and gents.

The Mazmart mod allows the flow to increase with rpm much longer than with the stock system. (It was 94 psi @ 6,000 rpm for me, and still increasing, but I didn't go any higher in this short test). What's the upper limit, Paul? It also allows running higher viscosity oil without pay a flow penalty in the 4-5k rpm band. It will have no effect on flow compared to stock below about 4k rpm.

How's my thought process here?

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

You're trying to strain my poor brain. At a quick glance, you appear to be making sensible assessments.

The upper limits with our mod? Safe Max at 120 perhaps, it depends on where you're reading, type of guages etc etc.

Paul.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

oops

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

No I know it's not man This was good deal but that would have been the deal of a lifetime. The scanalyser will be a toy to play with until I get into the Protuner. In getting the Scanalyser I have read up a lot and pretty much decided to go with the Protuner over the AP.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

I'd rather not get in to that in this thread but PM if you have any input and want to discuss it

JinDesu

iTrader: (2)

Hiflite - You state that there is going to be a flow decrease going from 20-40 weight oil in the 4-5k range. So by saying that, is the 0-4k, and 5k-9k range staying the same?

I'm not so familiar with how the bypass works (read: I'm stupid, and am getting lost in this discussion).

So let me explain what I understand:
Before the bypass opens - the flow is a constant rate defined by oil pump
Bypass opens - oil flow is diverted?

Sorry for being dense lol..

HiFlite999

iTrader: (2)

I'm still trying to get it straight, but getting more convinced this is the right way to think about it. Under the 4-5k range, which is saying under the range where the bypass opens, the flow rate, me thinks, is the same regardless of the viscosity (within reason). When the bypass opens, the flow no longer increases with increasing pump speed, because now part of the flow is diverted from the pump directly into the oil sump without having gone through the engine.

Above 4-5k rpm, in terms of *flow*, I'm not absolutely sure what happens when comparing 40W vs 20W, but am suspecting that one also gets a reduction in flow with 40W vs 20W.

Let's try an intuitive analogy. Imagine your garden hose connected to a city water plant, where the pressure in your pipes is say 80 psi in the case where there is no water flow at all. If you measure the pressure just before the nozzle of the hose, it will read 80 psi with everything shut off. Open the nozzle a little, the pressure will drop a little and the water shoots out a great distance but with very low volume moving per second. (Think squirt gun.) If you want to fill a bucket, open the nozzle wide, the flow goes up, but the pressure drops.

Now tee into the hose, and put a pressure regulator upstream of the nozzle, that controls the water pressure in the hose to 80 psi by letting enough water out before reaching the nozzle. Open the nozzle "midway". In the analogy, this is our car, where the hose nozzle represents the resistance of bearings and oil passages to flow. If we increase the house pressure to 120 psi, the flow through the nozzle remains the same, because the pressure in the hose is held constant by the open regulator. If we drop the house pressure below 80 psi, the regulator entirely closes, but the flow drops because it can't add any pressure to maintain it.

Go back to a house pressure of 120 psi The bypass is open and the hose sees 80 psi. (analogous to running say 7k rpm in the car).Now suppose the water company decides to pump chocolate syrup at 120 psi, and the slug of syrup makes it's way through the system. When the slug hits the nozzle, what happens? The resistance to flow increases and the hose pressure tries to increase, but is stopped at 80 psi by the regulator. Then what happens? The flow is reduced.

The viscosity difference between water and syrup is of course much larger than between 20W and 40W oil, but I'm thinking the conclusion must be the same:

When the system is pressure regulated (above that 4-5k rpm range), the higher the oil viscosity, the lower the flow.

Other factors come into play of course, having to do with the details of oil lubrication properties, and flow does not immediately connect with lubrication, otherwise why not run 0W oil? The flow considerations do suggest however that going from 20W to 40W oil alone is not the unconditional benefit it seems at first.

If however, one does the Mazmart mod, it moves the oil system into a constant-displacement mode (flow related only to rpm) for essentially the entire operating band of the engine, with both 20W and 40W oils. It seems to me to be a really good idea. (I might change my mind if I see the oil filter shooting through the hood at 9k revs though --- just kidding!)

robrecht

I thought you already had the Protuner. The only input I have is that a free MM custom tune seems to make the AP very valuable for RX-8 owners. I'm not very familiar with Protuner, but please feel free to PM me about its advantages over an MM AP.

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

The prevailing reason that we will still insist on nothing less than a 30 (Preferably 40-50) is the advantages offered by the improved hydrodynamic wedge of higher viscosity. This prevents the most typical bearing wear (Not oilflow at startup like a lot of people think) in a rotary.

Please film any flying filters you encounter .

Paul.