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The US Navy actually banned use of chlorinated metal treatments after finding problems with corrosion and wear. They found some short-term benefits in testing, but also found long-term problems. Google Militec-1 and find its true history with the Navy for an example of how the above unfolded.
Most of the products of this type, if they list ingredients in the MSDS, boil down to a solvent or other petroleum or alcohol-based carrier, a dispersant, and an active ingredient that consists of a lubricating metals package or a chlorinated component. (Read: fuel injector cleaner plus lubricant.) There is no hard evidence that these products provide any tangible benefits to an engine.
Pretty much sums up what I found. And the company that makes Militec loves to pump the relationship with the military despite what happened. I have read a **** ton of MSDS sheets and I have never seen one that omitted the ingredients that was from a legit manufacturer.
Sorry for the vagueness, we a have friction modifier to provide anti-wear and extreme pressure protection, corrosion and rust inhibitors to protect against acid and moisture attack, and it is all wrapped up in a petroleum base stock. I can’t really get any more specific than that.
I don't understand how you guys are trying to argue what I've already started. I was pretty specific in saying I don't know what the long term is, and that I'd be getting and sharing any aftermath data that I can... So why are you guys saying come back with proof? That's exactly what I intended and stated that I would do. Proof either way.
As for the douche talking about solvent in the engine... Not only do most of you use Seafoam on your engines, which is moronic, but the engine itself mixes gas with the fuel. Gas is a solvent. This is why we change our oil every 3k miles.
To the guy quoting engine temps, does your engine run at 180 when the temp outside is 115F? No, it doesn't.
No additive is going to drop the temps below 180. If that is the optimal temp, then the engine is always going to get at least that hot. If you think you're only running at 180 all the time, you're dead wrong.
Don't preach to me, when all the facts you know came off of this site. Partly because I've read everything you have, but mostly because I've yet to ever get a straight non conflicting answer off of here. 90 percent of the time, when I have a question, I have to call up one of the big rotary tuning shops... Let me tell you, making international calls isn't as easy as you'd think.
I don't understand how you guys are trying to argue what I've already started. I was pretty specific in saying I don't know what the long term is, and that I'd be getting and sharing any aftermath data that I can... So why are you guys saying come back with proof? That's exactly what I intended and stated that I would do. Proof either way.
As for the douche talking about solvent in the engine... Not only do most of you use Seafoam on your engines, which is moronic, but the engine itself mixes gas with the fuel. Gas is a solvent. This is why we change our oil every 3k miles.
To the guy quoting engine temps, does your engine run at 180 when the temp outside is 115F? No, it doesn't.
No additive is going to drop the temps below 180. If that is the optimal temp, then the engine is always going to get at least that hot. If you think you're only running at 180 all the time, you're dead wrong.
Don't preach to me, when all the facts you know came off of this site. Partly because I've read everything you have, but mostly because I've yet to ever get a straight non conflicting answer off of here. 90 percent of the time, when I have a question, I have to call up one of the big rotary tuning shops... Let me tell you, making international calls isn't as easy as you'd think.
gas is fuel. as far as seafoam those of us that are informed dont use it. both 9k and riwwp have done testing on this subject. running distilled water in the lim ports while running does have a cleaning effect tho. <mod edit: comment removed>
I don't understand how you guys are trying to argue what I've already started. I was pretty specific in saying I don't know what the long term is, and that I'd be getting and sharing any aftermath data that I can... So why are you guys saying come back with proof? That's exactly what I intended and stated that I would do. Proof either way.
We are responding to the part where you say:
What the **** is wrong with you Mazda people? Of all the vehicles I've owned and forums I've been a part of, never have I encountered such know it all know nothing bunch of douche bag dude bros like you people!
Doesn't matter what forum I go to, you are some keyboard warrior hateful *******.
Originally Posted by circutracer1511
As for the douche talking about solvent in the engine... Not only do most of you use Seafoam on your engines, which is moronic
Actually, most of us don't. I proved how pointless it is years ago.
Originally Posted by circutracer1511
but the engine itself mixes gas with the fuel
...what? Can you explain how the engine "mixes gas with the fuel"? Isn't our fuel already gas?
Originally Posted by circutracer1511
Gas is a solvent. This is why we change our oil every 3k miles.
Actually, no it's not the reason. The reason, as proven by the Use Oil Analysis thread, is that by 3,000 miles the oil viscosity is plummeting, even if there is NO fuel dilution. The high temp high sheer environment the oil lives in breaks it down rather fast. Oil breakdown also leads to OMP line clogging. Change the oil to keep things clean, fresh, and viscous. There is less than a 1% fuel dilution rate for our engines (on average)
Originally Posted by circutracer1511
To the guy quoting engine temps, does your engine run at 180 when the temp outside is 115F? No, it doesn't.
If you have a 180F thermostat and enough cooling to shed the engine heat down to 180, then yes, it can indeed run 180F at 115F ambient. And 180F when it's -30F ambient. That's the point of a thermostat. The engine CAN'T run lower than the thermostat temp (once it's done warming up) as long as the cooling system is working correctly.
Originally Posted by circutracer1511
No additive is going to drop the temps below 180. If that is the optimal temp, then the engine is always going to get at least that hot. If you think you're only running at 180 all the time, you're dead wrong.
Actually, my 8 runs at 170-175F. All the time. I have the OBD2 data to prove it. Why? Because I have a 172F thermostat. I don't need an additive to drop the coolant temps, because I understand how coolant systems work. If you have a 195F thermostat, you won't ever get down to 180. If you have a 160F thermostat, you may have a lot of trouble getting up to 180. None of this has anything to do with an oil additive.
Originally Posted by circutracer1511
90 percent of the time, when I have a question, I have to call up one of the big rotary tuning shops... Let me tell you, making international calls isn't as easy as you'd think.
No wonder you have issues with understanding how things work. Most of those "big rotary tuning shops" get stuff horribly horribly wrong when it comes to the RX-8. The largest RX-8 knowledge base in the world is right here on the forums. OF COURSE you are going to get conflicting information though. It's the nature of forums that someone who doesn't know what they are talking about is free to respond. Having the awareness and understanding to sift through the information and sort good from bad is part of life, and comes in really useful here. But the other good side about the forums is that everythign is constantly error checked. If a rotary shop in Timbuktu told you that it was best if you ran diesel in your RX-8... and you believed them... then no one could possibly attempt to correct your error. Here on the forum, someone says something stupid or wrong in public, we can get that corrected and cleared up before it does someone too much harm.
I mean, just look at what happens when someone comes looking for answers about an oil additive.
<snip>
but the engine itself mixes gas with the fuel. Gas is a solvent. This is why we change our oil every 3k miles.
<snip>
Invalid argument indeed, might want to check your wording.
Look, guy, if you want to be taken seriously then you need something other than claiming your placebo effect from your butt-feeling that shat a rainbow full of gold at the end of it is anything more than just that.
Otherwise, it's no different than the average schmoe going to Autozone and using an injector cleaner in their car claiming the same thing.
One of the shops where I live has this ''rotary specific tech''. He works at this major shop/dealership, so he knows everything he should, right? Sure.
He couldn't answer a simple question about the coils on my 8, that I already knew the answer to. Where'd I get that answer? These forums and their members.
Every question I've had about my 8, has been solidly answered by these forums, with better information and faster than any shop I've spoken to.
No additive is going to drop the temps below 180. If that is the optimal temp, then the engine is always going to get at least that hot. If you think you're only running at 180 all the time, you're dead wrong.
Originally Posted by circutracer1511
The other thing I watched for based the product claims, was temperature reduction. Sure enough, by the time I pulled into my subdivision, the coolant temp gauge dropped by a full notch and a half, and the fans hadn't even kicked on!
So then in your case, it went down a notch and a half TO the normal position, which means you've been running in permanent overheat this whole time. Except your fans hadn't kicked on so I don't know what you're saying any more.
If the coolant temp gauge moved, then it means that you were either over 235F before, or under 160F. The factory coolant temp gauge doesn't move between 160 and 235.
So if you agree that it can't be below 180F, that must mean you were overheating before.
I don't really have anything to add in response that these guys have not covered. But, Circutracer1511, you really need to stop, take a deep breath, and start reading because you are lacking basic knowledge when it comes to cars and engines in general, not to mention your serious lack of knowledge when it comes to the RX-8.
Would be great to see them post in this thread to defend their product.
Well, I don't usually do this sort of thing, but since you asked...
I'm John Paul, I'm a Sagittarius, I enjoy going fast and breaking stuff. For example, my first car was a 1988 Mazda MX-6 GT turbo. I blew up the automatic 6 times. I had a 1995 Taurus SHO. This car met an unfortunate end involving understeer, a telephone pole, and a fair amount of 19 year old jackassness. A high mileage 1995 Toyota 4x4 that jumped railroad tracks and got thrashed off road until it through a rod. Then I got my first new car, a super sweet 2003 Hyundai Accent. A reliable car that served me well for 105,000 miles when I traded it on a 2003 GTI. I know I know getting rid of a cheap reliable car for a VW, what a fool, but don't judge me, they can't be much worse than what's in your garages. The car is currently worth maybe $2,000 on trade and maybe $8,000 as parts. It's a disease. I still have the GTI, and I daily a 2013 TDI because I didn't learn my lesson.
Also I'm not a chemical engineer, I worked with one developing MC Squared. He was an 87 year old genius. He invented latex paint with Sherwinn Williams in the 60's, and has 7 patents in his name with Gardner Asphalt Corp.
As if we didn't have enough wear problems already.
This isn't chlorinated paraffin.
Originally Posted by RIWWP
circuit, there is a lot of science proving these things to not work, except where it causes damage to the engine. Is this an exception to those rules? Maybe. But it's going to need science to prove it before you make us believers. Given how the rest of them work, there IS a very big reason not to risk damage to the engine. Give us some science, not some possible placeabo evaluations of a few miles of driving.
Without that science, no one here will believe you.
And no, "some guy somewhere that says he is an engineer told me this is what it does" isn't scientific proof.
Good man, I'm a proof is in the pudding kinda guy myself. Are ASTM tests scientific enough for you? Test-Results
Originally Posted by RIWWP
^ I'm sure if we were to jump on every possible concept enthusiastically without actually digging into it first, we would only swap labels from "pessimistic haters" to "gullible idiots".
Can't win them all.
I like you.
Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8
Oh and for ***** an giggles, I looked up the MSDS. I am pretty sure this is the product but I emailed MC2 to be sure. You tell me how acid mixed with a solvent (also used as an oil dispersal product in the oil industry) can help in any way? Oh wait, yes, mixing acid and a solvent that is used as an oil dispersant with your engine oil is a great idea..............
Scott, nice to talk to you again. This metal conditioner is for prepping metal for paint.
02150 Metal Conditioner is a one-step cleaner, degreaser and phosphatizer for steel and aluminum substrates. Metal Conditioner will eliminate rust from steel substrates and is extremely effective in eliminating flash rusting on freshly blasted steel. Metal Conditioner eliminates oil, grease, and other low surface tension contamination and conditions the metal for exceptionally good adhesion of primer and paint.
As for not listing the ingredients, there are not many ways to protect a product like this.
You can get a patent, which in and of itself is a giant pain in the ***. And then the formula is out there and anyone with the desire and means can start making their own product. Then there is the time, money, and effort needed to defend the patent in court... and blah, blah, blah. It's exhausting just thinking about it.
Or you can call them proprietary as a trade secret and anyone with the desire and means can try to reverse engineer it, spending a ton of time, money and effort on testing and R&D, etc. to get a comparable product. So in the end, there isn't much we can do to protect it. It took us over 3 years to get MC Squared perfect. We decided a 3 year head start was good enough for us.
So unless you are an oil company with a check that has a bunch of zeros on it ready to buy me out, I'm never going to tell you the formula. That is one certainly one of our desired outcomes. The other is go with the Lucas Oil model, sell so much of this stuff that we're making that football stadium sponsorship level money.
Do you need to use MC Squared? Of course not. We don't need to do any of the aftermarket things we do to our cars as enthusiasts. But we do it to make them perform better, go faster, look cooler, make them our own. If you feel the best protection you can get is a good oil and filter, great, but the tests speak for themselves.
care to explain why this stuff shouldn't be used in a LSD?
From an Eaton Posi owners manual.
Eaton Posi Quality mineral or synthetic lube with sufficient friction
modifier content will ensure the smoothest operating and longest life of your Eaton Posi performance differential. Eaton recommends GM Dexron LS or Castrol Carbon Mod SAF (Synthetic Axle Fluid) for all Posi applications. If using non-“LS” gear lube, add four
ounces of General Motors “Limited Slip Axle Lubricant Additive” per one-and-a-half quarts of gear lube (GMP/N 88900330/10-4003). Additional friction modifier additive may be used to reduce LSD plate “chatter,” but do not exceed eight ounces per one-and-a-half quarts of lube. Other brands of additives may be used. A friction modifier's purpose is to lower the static coefficient of friction (grabbing) within the clutch to match the dynamic friction (sliding) in an effort to reduce the effects of friction transition stick, slip, chatter). Excessive amounts of a friction modifier can lower both friction values, resulting in reduction of bias ratio (performance) for plate-style limited-slip differentials such as the Eaton Posi. Many brand name gear lubes contain some limited-slip friction modifier in their formulation. If you use such a lube, additional friction modifier additives should be used sparingly to avoid accidental over-saturation resulting in performance loss.
We lower the coefficient of friction too much to be used in this type of LSD.
05-14-2015 | 04:54 PM
I had a 1995 Taurus SHO. This car met an unfortunate end involving understeer, a telephone pole, and a fair amount of 19 year old jackassness. A high mileage 1995 Toyota 4x4 that jumped railroad tracks and got thrashed off road until it through a rod. Then I got my first new car, a super sweet 2003 Hyundai Accent. A reliable car that served me well for 105,000 miles when I traded it on a 2003 GTI. I know I know getting rid of a cheap reliable car for a VW, what a fool, but don't judge me, they can't be much worse than what's in your garages. The car is currently worth maybe $2,000 on trade and maybe $8,000 as parts. It's a disease. I still have the GTI, and I daily a 2013 TDI because I didn't learn my lesson.
