My engine rebuild.
06-12-2010, 12:29 AM
#351
got er done, however I did have one issue and was wondering if others had the same issue. the pulley seems to only be aligned well with 2 of the 4 bolts, so I torqued those down real well, but could not put the other 2 in because they didn't align. Did anyone else notice this. Should I be alright with 2 of the 4 bolts?
06-12-2010, 12:35 AM
#352
Im with you on all that, and I appreciate your help through all this believe me I do.
I've double checked over everything. I'm almost positive the thrust bearing has slipped causing the pulley and pulley mount to wobble. I cant see any other way around it.
Easy from BHR has suggested I tear it apart and put a decent amount of grease on it to hold it together making sure it wouldn't slip, when I reassembled it.
Can you think of anything else externally that would cause this? Besides a incorrect mounted pulley?
I would prefer not to take it all apart again.
I've double checked over everything. I'm almost positive the thrust bearing has slipped causing the pulley and pulley mount to wobble. I cant see any other way around it.
Easy from BHR has suggested I tear it apart and put a decent amount of grease on it to hold it together making sure it wouldn't slip, when I reassembled it.
Can you think of anything else externally that would cause this? Besides a incorrect mounted pulley?
I would prefer not to take it all apart again.
06-12-2010, 01:05 AM
#353
kevin@rotaryresurrection
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You say you cross threaded the bolt. 1) I've never seen that happen. 2) The bolt and the shaft are so hard that I don't see either one of them cross threading...I would expect the bolt to just stop dead in it's tracks after about a turn. IF somehow you really did cross thread or strip that bolt, it may be tightened at an angle, which I suppose could cause it. IF it is actually cross threaded you may have torqued the bolt but the head may not be making full contact yet...in other words the torque is in the threads and not between the head and hub/boss.
The bad news is that if you truly did strip or cross thread it, you may have damaged the e-shaft to the point that even a good bolt will not align and torque properly, and you know what that means.
The other bad news is that, if you failed to get the thrust bearings set up properly during assembly on the stand, engine pointing up, gravity not coming into play, in a spacious, well lit work area, with you standing straight up...the chances of you being able to do it with the engine in the car, in dim light, with stuff in the way, bent over and contorted at an odd angle, with gravity pulling on the parts and oil all over them making them stick together and slide around, with increased difficulty measuring, are even less.
IS the trigger wheel itself wobbling? Is the bolt wobbling? IS the hub/boss wobbling? Did you remove the pullies and trigger wheel and crank it to observe the boss and bolt rotating by themselves as I suggested earlier?
The bad news is that if you truly did strip or cross thread it, you may have damaged the e-shaft to the point that even a good bolt will not align and torque properly, and you know what that means.
The other bad news is that, if you failed to get the thrust bearings set up properly during assembly on the stand, engine pointing up, gravity not coming into play, in a spacious, well lit work area, with you standing straight up...the chances of you being able to do it with the engine in the car, in dim light, with stuff in the way, bent over and contorted at an odd angle, with gravity pulling on the parts and oil all over them making them stick together and slide around, with increased difficulty measuring, are even less.
IS the trigger wheel itself wobbling? Is the bolt wobbling? IS the hub/boss wobbling? Did you remove the pullies and trigger wheel and crank it to observe the boss and bolt rotating by themselves as I suggested earlier?
06-12-2010, 01:35 AM
#354
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To answer the e shaft play, when we put the engine in the car there was e shaft play. I remember pushing on the flywheel it created that metal slap. In other words in my opinion the spacer, needle bearing is all in correct positions.
Last edited by ///Mik3; 06-12-2010 at 01:38 AM.
06-12-2010, 01:42 AM
#355
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You say you cross threaded the bolt. 1) I've never seen that happen. 2) The bolt and the shaft are so hard that I don't see either one of them cross threading...I would expect the bolt to just stop dead in it's tracks after about a turn. IF somehow you really did cross thread or strip that bolt, it may be tightened at an angle, which I suppose could cause it. IF it is actually cross threaded you may have torqued the bolt but the head may not be making full contact yet...in other words the torque is in the threads and not between the head and hub/boss.
The bad news is that if you truly did strip or cross thread it, you may have damaged the e-shaft to the point that even a good bolt will not align and torque properly, and you know what that means.
The other bad news is that, if you failed to get the thrust bearings set up properly during assembly on the stand, engine pointing up, gravity not coming into play, in a spacious, well lit work area, with you standing straight up...the chances of you being able to do it with the engine in the car, in dim light, with stuff in the way, bent over and contorted at an odd angle, with gravity pulling on the parts and oil all over them making them stick together and slide around, with increased difficulty measuring, are even less.
IS the trigger wheel itself wobbling? Is the bolt wobbling? IS the hub/boss wobbling? Did you remove the pullies and trigger wheel and crank it to observe the boss and bolt rotating by themselves as I suggested earlier?
The bad news is that if you truly did strip or cross thread it, you may have damaged the e-shaft to the point that even a good bolt will not align and torque properly, and you know what that means.
The other bad news is that, if you failed to get the thrust bearings set up properly during assembly on the stand, engine pointing up, gravity not coming into play, in a spacious, well lit work area, with you standing straight up...the chances of you being able to do it with the engine in the car, in dim light, with stuff in the way, bent over and contorted at an odd angle, with gravity pulling on the parts and oil all over them making them stick together and slide around, with increased difficulty measuring, are even less.
IS the trigger wheel itself wobbling? Is the bolt wobbling? IS the hub/boss wobbling? Did you remove the pullies and trigger wheel and crank it to observe the boss and bolt rotating by themselves as I suggested earlier?
06-12-2010, 02:17 AM
#356
kevin@rotaryresurrection
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Following the Renesis FSM, it says to torque to something above 150 ft lbs (Dont remember off the top of my head). When we put that in the first time without the main pully, and torqued it to spec, it damaged the very tip of the threads. The bolt bottomed out and the first 2 threads were damaged. We carefully put the bolt back into the e shaft on final assembly so it wouldn't crossthread. It did go in, however it wasn't smooth like a new bolt would be. I dont suspect that it's crossthreaded since i knew the eshaft metal was hard, but you never know until you pull the f*cker out.
06-12-2010, 03:50 AM
#360
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What questioned us was that FDs had a torque spec of 85ftlbs, where in the Renesis FSM said something ridiculously high. I know the renesis is not a 13B-REW but still, i dont see how the bolt torque should be any different.
Dont get me wrong, i'm not saying we did everything right. Obviously not since the thing isn't running properly. I'm just trying to figure this sh*t out without having to pull the engine out and having to tear the f*cker apart. Everyone's posts are valuable and it makes us go back double check all the work. Problem is that not only is the pulley wobbling but the damn thing isn't firing up as well. Get good oil pressure, fuel and what seems like good compression (can't really tell until we do a compression test). The spark is just uber weak, even compared to a piston engine. Can't wait til i get back to figure this thing out. I wanna hear the baby purrrrr like a sexy chick just wanting some!
Last edited by ///Mik3; 06-12-2010 at 04:06 AM.
06-12-2010, 11:28 AM
#361
kevin@rotaryresurrection
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Tell me about your main engine ground. Did you clean the block and the ground terminal with sandpaper and use dielectric grease or similar before connecting it? This is the procedure I use for all ground points. It's been my past experience that the renesis control system is very particular about its grounds.
Other than battery voltage and ground, I do not know of anything that will change the INTENSITY of spark. There are several things that will cause you not to have any spark at all, but none that I know of which will change it's intensity.
Could your plugs be fouled? Fouled plugs would emit a weak or no spark in spite of what is present in the wires. These plugs foul VERY easily. My advice? Pick up a set of rx7 86-91 plugs for about $6 each and use those for startup/breakin, rather than ruining an $80 set of rx8 plugs. THe rx7 plugs are direct use as long as you double the washers on the trailing ones.
Other than battery voltage and ground, I do not know of anything that will change the INTENSITY of spark. There are several things that will cause you not to have any spark at all, but none that I know of which will change it's intensity.
Could your plugs be fouled? Fouled plugs would emit a weak or no spark in spite of what is present in the wires. These plugs foul VERY easily. My advice? Pick up a set of rx7 86-91 plugs for about $6 each and use those for startup/breakin, rather than ruining an $80 set of rx8 plugs. THe rx7 plugs are direct use as long as you double the washers on the trailing ones.
06-12-2010, 11:50 AM
#363
kevin@rotaryresurrection
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The rear thrust bearing only. The front stack can still move around...but that rear bearing is what would most commonly fall down and get crushed by the spacer. The front spacer is easy to see, it is on top of the thrust plate and so you are not likely to mess that up. The rear bearing is hidden during assembly and that is why it is the culprit.
Here, let me show you. Here is the last engine I tore down that had been rebuilt by someone on their own and let the rear bearing slip during assembly. This is what a pinched rear thrust bearing looks like. THe thrust plate gets scorched, warped, and cracked, because there is essentially metal to metal contact with almost no lubrication.
Here you can see that the rear thrust bearing had fallen down during assembly. Then the spacer, which is supposed to fit INSIDE the thrust bearing, was laid on TOP of it instead. Then the whole thing was torqued down, which crushed the thrust bearing and locked it into an elliptical "orbit". IT also means that the rollers cannot turn as they should and so extra friction is created, causing the heat and friction damage against the thrust plate you see. The particles from this wear usually come off and destroy the front bearing also, and when THAT happens, the engine goes bye-bye in a catastrophic failure. IF you can catch this before bearing damage, it is likely it can be corrected by simply replacing the front thrust parts.
Im going to need to swap out that bolt with a new one, how much do you want for one?
06-12-2010, 11:59 AM
#364
kevin@rotaryresurrection
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Also, during assembly, if you want to be sure you have done the rear thrust bearing part correctly, this pic illustrates how it should look.
With the spacer installed, lay the front thrust bearing around it. They should sit basically even with each other. IF the spacer sticks up much farther than the front thrust bearing, then the spacer must be laying on the rear thrust bearing.
Another way to be sure is to remove the thrust plate and rear thrust bearing. Then slide on the spacer all the way until it stops. Then install the rear thrust bearing. Then the plate, and the front thrust bearing. This ensures that the rear bearing cannot slide.
With the spacer installed, lay the front thrust bearing around it. They should sit basically even with each other. IF the spacer sticks up much farther than the front thrust bearing, then the spacer must be laying on the rear thrust bearing.
Another way to be sure is to remove the thrust plate and rear thrust bearing. Then slide on the spacer all the way until it stops. Then install the rear thrust bearing. Then the plate, and the front thrust bearing. This ensures that the rear bearing cannot slide.
06-12-2010, 12:16 PM
#366
kevin@rotaryresurrection
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I have seen them a lot worse. This one was only run for a few minutes or an hour that way from what I was told. IT also had a coolant seal pinched which is why the guy sent it to be for proper rebuild, because it was blowing out coolant and overheating from the instant it started. HE did not know about the front stack issue until I showed him.
I have seen the thrust plate broken into pieces.
Also, that is a 91 and earlier motor, they used a smaller set of spacer and thrust bearing. Since the spacer is half as thick as the 93+ style, it does much less damage to the thrust bearing, because the distance between the shaft and bearing is less, so the damaged area on the bearing will be less. On a 93+ if you make that mistake you will take out an entire 1/8 of the thrust bearing with the thick spacer crushing it.
I have seen the thrust plate broken into pieces.
Also, that is a 91 and earlier motor, they used a smaller set of spacer and thrust bearing. Since the spacer is half as thick as the 93+ style, it does much less damage to the thrust bearing, because the distance between the shaft and bearing is less, so the damaged area on the bearing will be less. On a 93+ if you make that mistake you will take out an entire 1/8 of the thrust bearing with the thick spacer crushing it.
06-12-2010, 12:45 PM
#367
ahhh!!!! i feel smarter already reading this thread lol, this is possibly one of the best thread on this forum ; mainly because it warns future engine re-builders advice on what to double check before the engine is reassembled. sticky?? anyone?
Last edited by mushkid; 06-12-2010 at 12:47 PM.
06-12-2010, 07:09 PM
#370
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Shady, as far as electrical spark goes and obvious one which is easily overlooked is the "condition of your cars 12V battery"...a separate additional battery booster can be a great help when you get back to starting again...good luck.
06-12-2010, 08:59 PM
#372
Let me say shady that I admire your energy and "bravery" for taking on this project yourself, and promise you that this will pay off many times in the future (even if your engine never runs again - which it will). Everyone who's actually done an engine rebuild remembers the virginal first-time experience and usually the part where they messsed up or something went wrong in most vivid detail. (Mine was discovering it's a real bad idea to start a chain driven overhead cam engine with the valve cover (and hood) off.) Lately I've been in the position to interview and hire people for high-tech jobs. It's really easy these days to find applicants with a degree. It's really hard however to find anyone with the degree who have actually done something besides passing exams on their own initiative. At a Soaring Society of America convention, I once watched a guy chatting with a young man who had not only built a sailplane himself, but conducted a thorough test program on it - the guy was an exec at Boeing and hired the recently graduated kid on the spot. So don't forget to mention you little hobby project on your resume somewhere!
Kudos also for RR, MM, and the others helping out! This is what the internet was like before AOL and the web ruined it all.
Kudos also for RR, MM, and the others helping out! This is what the internet was like before AOL and the web ruined it all.
06-13-2010, 12:38 AM
#375
kevin@rotaryresurrection
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All the parts of the front stack are now coated in oil. Oil makes things tend to stick together. So, when you release tension on that big bolt, it's entirely possible that the hub/boss can slide forward slightly, because nothing is holding it down. In fact, the bolt usually has some sealant clinging to it and the hub, which will actually pull the hub out very slightly.
One part moves, they all can move, because the oil between them tends to make them stick together. So you have several parts that slide easily on a precision machined smooth shaft. This includes the spacer itself. If it slides forward 1/8 of an inch, guess what, you just dropped the thrust bearing.
This is more prone to happen on jobs when the front hub is actually being removed from the engine, but it is a possibility anytime tension is removed from the front stack and it is not facing upwards. IF you have to do this, wedge the pedal as aforementioned to secure the rear thrust bearing (assuming it is not already fallen/crushed) and maybe even point/park the car uphill significantly so that gravity will be your friend.