Correct. Weight diff of 5lbs per wheel. I wish I could have done a same day back to back test to determine gain % from wheels if any. The dyno owner did mention seeing small losses when some front drive cars (which shall remain nameless but their initials are H.O.N.D.A.) came in w/bigger flash wheel/tire combos. Have you done any comparisons?

204 vs 201 is not enough variance to prove anything when the tests are done on different days w/multiple changesmade to the car.you vcan have that much diference on back to back runs just because of changes in engine temp or fan placement.

While what you say is true, it does not negate the value of the data. True, if you were developing a race engine and wanted to see if a particular change made a difference you would try and dyno immediately and in a controlled environment.

We all drive in the real world. I personally do not know of any MAZDA dealerships with a dyno to do immediate before and after "P" runs. A car may make X power one day, and Y power another. As we all know, in the real world the the car and environmental conditions are always changing, so saying that data does not prove anything, while technically accurate, the tone implies that the data is invalid, which is not the case.

Just because you dyno one day at 205 does not mean you'll produce 205 the next day. Even if you did it back to back on a dyno, it does not mean you'll do it tomorrow on the street. It also does not mean you won't. The point is the data, and Charlie has plenty of data since his first dyno to his most recent, indicates his mods, flashes and baseline car combine to show significant improvements over time. Included in that data gathering is the "P". I'd wager Charlie is in the top 1% for total dyno runs in a street driven 8, certainly in the US and perhaps in the world. He makes changes and he runs to the dyno.

I think this practice of discarding or minimizing data simply because it is not produced under controlled laboratory conditions misses the forest for the trees.

No one can exactly reproduce the same results day in and day out. Even the guys with all the technical resources in the world can't do it. The purpose, as we all know is the big picture, not the granular single run.

You are right, it does not prove anything, it also does not disprove anything.

I'm not trying to be difficult or a PITA .. I'm just saying 99.9 % of us don't run to the dyno like Charlie does ... and we never will. Since his is the best, maybe only "P" dyno data we've got to date, let's just take it at face value and not over analyze it. It is a piece of data in a long line of datums he has gathered.

do they document an updated flash in the invoice if they did it, say after an oil change?

I love it!

I got the reflash yesterday and after 50 miles, I love it. It felt to have a better mid range just out the door, and all the driving (Houston rush hour trafic) was more relax? compliant? , i don't know, just better.

All is based on my butt-dyno. I must admit that even when I re-fill the washer fluid the car seems to run better, but it this case I do belive it runs better (besides placebo effects).

ok, i just talked over the phone to a mazda service manager, and he told me he couldn't tell me what flash i'm running just by giving him my vin number. he told me that i would have to bring my car in to hook it up to some type of computer to be able to tell. is that true?

i'm bringing my car in next week for them to check. now what do i have to tell them to convince them to update to the most recent flash? and how the hell will i know if they did actually reflash instead of B.S. me and say they did?

i dont want to be a pita either. i was going from teh numbers at face value without knowing the history behind them. you have to admit we see that kind of stuff all the time and its hard not to question the data. thanks. and with a name like Charlie i think i can give him the benefit of the doubt.

best regards

charlie:)

bydoc- tell them they certainly can do so. all they have to do is look up your service history with a vin inquiry like they were looking for recalls. if the person you are talking to insists they cant do that either get his manager of get them to call the tech line and be given lessons on how to do it. if they still cant/wont then get on the phone to Mazda customer assisstance on your cell phone while you are still there 1 800 222 5500. tell them what is going on and ask them to get someone to call the dealership and explain to them how to do their job. if that doesnt work find anothr dealer.

Yes, it's true they have to query your ECU to see what software you currently have. If you're not up to at least M they should reflash you, doubtless to the most current, P. If you have no problems with M or N, maybe you don't want P anyway. If they say they reflashed and don't do it, the next query will call their bluff.

but they can ascertain that he is at least on M by checking if MSP04 is closed in the system. and they can also see if he is at a higher level then M by looking at the warrenty claims to see if a flash has been done since the MSP04 flash.

i just talked to another service manager, she said that i've had it reflashed twice according to the vin i gave her over the phone, but she wouldn't be able to tell me which flash i'm currently running via that info.
question, if i do bring it in for them to check which flash i have, will they charge me?

they might but i havent heard of anyone still under warrenty being charged.

Well because of your build date the first would have been the MSP04 M flash. But in order for them to do another flash the WDS had to have told them there was an update available. So that must have been at least when N was available. without hooking up to the wds or a canscan or hymee scanalyser we wont know exactly but i think its a good guess to say you are on N. so you are good to go.

My service manager told me that Mazda has a complete online history of everything the dealership has ever done to my vehicle. Mazda Tech Line can look everything up. If you've never been flashed, they should have known the version by the build date. Maybe the info is too hard to get through Mazda Tech Line, so he gave you the answer that was easier for him.

khoney that situation has been rectified now. we're pretty certain what level he is on.

To some extent I agree with you Zoom, however a dyno jet dyno has a pretty accurate weather station built in that does correct for atmospheric conditions and I can say with some certainty that my readings are repeatable each time, everytime unless something has changed on the car. My RX7 was aprime example. I had tuned the engine (MoTeC M4 Pro) in December and made no changes after that. A friend visited in July and had not been to the dyno before
and wanted to see the car in action. We went, strapped the car down, made 3 pulls and the numbers were within 10ths of where it was in December.

I always test with the same tire pressures and strap down the same way each time for consistency as well as fan placement.

You really should dyno your own car if possible to see where you are and where you are going. I am certainly proud that I have a really strong car but I am truly more interested in whether the numbers go up or down so as to know whether changes were good, bad, or the same. With the small gains that are possible on the 8 as compared to previous rotary powered cars, I do believe that the few hp and lbft of torque are legit. If the dyno were in my shop the tests would be more back to back and controlled but it's not so I have to go when I can to test.

Charlie Shatzen
Mazcare Inc

i had not read many of your previous post but when derwankel let me in on some things i had this to say-

so i understand more now and i have a better appreciation for your results:) i did take the oppurtunity to dyno my car. several things went wrong during the dyno which gave me reason not to trust the results. however the graph is telling- its quite obvious that one of the things that went wrong is that my VDI did not open. the 30hp drop where it should have opened and no recovery, just a fairly flat line from there, made it obvious.

What did you do to fix the vdi not opening and what caused it?

what kind of dyno too?

dynojet dyno. havent done anything. the car was hot that night. it might have been heat related. since i realized what the issue is/was i havent had much oppurtunity to run it to see if it is a recurring problem or not. im not to concerned as you can tell. there is very few reasons for it not to open so it wont be difficult to correct when i have the time IF it happens again.

Zoom44,

Would it be safe to say, that if the 'P' is suppose to address the AC issues, then the older TSB where they change the amplifier did not fix the problem? Or was this another issue introduced through the 'M' and/or 'N'?

I was wondering... do you have to pay to get a Flash upgrade done? Or can I just go to a Mazda dealership and ask for a flash ECU upgrade?

I dun even know what a flash is...

The flash is free under warrenty.

Oh, and I was wondering... if I wanted to get the most current flash, do I HAVE to go to the dealership I bought it at?

it can be any dealership, but they are not going to just give you a flash upon request.

Oh.... really? How can I get a flash upgrade then?