New TSB from Mazda Australia says mineral oils only!
#101
In Germany are only special SYNTHETIK DEXELIA Super 5w-30 recommend or equivalently ACEA A5/B5.
http://www.franken-online.de/hgb/RX-8/Mazda-Oel.pdf
http://www.franken-online.de/hgb/RX-8/Mazda-Oel.pdf
Last edited by HD-Paschke; 08-31-2006 at 05:39 AM.
#103
Originally Posted by HD-Paschke
In Germany are only special SYNTHETIK DEXELIA Super 5w-30 recommend or equivalently ACEA A5/B5.
http://www.franken-online.de/hgb/RX-8/Mazda-Oel.pdf
http://www.franken-online.de/hgb/RX-8/Mazda-Oel.pdf
I wonder how many fewer engines Mazda would have had to replace if 5w-30 was also the requirement in the USA?
33 date: 16.08.2006 side: 1/1 engine oil specification
- Mazda Wankelmotore
technology (KSI) No.: 64/06 building group: D (E017/06)
very honoured contracting parties, from given cause we refer again to the specific engine oil requirements with wankel engines. With employment of conventional synthetic high speed engine oils it can come in exceptional cases to increased engine wear and to seal incompatibilities. Therefore we recommend urgently the employment of Mazda Dexelia Ultra 5W-30 with Mazda Dexelia Ultra 5W-30 concern it a particularly developed engine oil, which becomes optimally the special requirements of the Mazda Wankelmotore fair. Mazda Dexelia Ultra 5W-30 is the only engine oil for Wankelmotore, recommended by Mazda. If this engine oil should not be available in exceptional cases, then 5W-30 with the minimum requirement is ACEA A5/B5 to begin excluding lubricants of the specification SOWS. Engine oils with lower ACEA qualities (e.g. A1/B1) are not usable! Note: LOW SAP engine oils of the specification ACEA c1 and/or ACEA C1-A5-B5 and/or ACEA C2-A5-B5 are not suitable for the use!
Yours sincerely M. Grüttke E. weber
leader KS-technology KS-technology
Last edited by expo1; 08-31-2006 at 08:13 AM.
#104
Mazda Distributors other than the US (it appears) have NEVER recommended the use of Synthetic oils for ANY rotary engine...period..
I don't give a rats ******* what other experts say, until Mazda recommends it I wont use it, and that's what I said when I first joined the forum..
The MA bulletin that circulated here and was some years old still applies, now we see 1+1 new bulletins to distributor/dealers from MMC (1) repeating the same warning.
WHAT ELSE DO YOU NEED TO BE TOLD...there is NO covering their **** or a conspiracy issue.
NO Manufacturer, Dealer, or Distributor can control WHAT an owner does to their car and what they may or may not put in it!.....
While I agree with RG on many of his points, its because the issues of what Synths are good are what are not, can a "blended" synthetic be used or not...blah blah blah...
Of course its easier fro MMC to have a NO RECOMMENDATION for SYNTHETICS, as they don't and wont endorse or test any particular brand, etc, etc.
Those who RACE Rotary engine vehicles should be excluded as ALL are overhauled very regularly and ALL seals are renewed....Its IS the LONG term use of synthetics and carbon build up that IS the issue, that leads to "marbles', poor performance, fowled plugs, oil control "O" Ring degradation,etc.
I know this sounds like a contradiction but CARBON build up in rotaries is nothing new...
It happened in the 70's when SYNTHETIC oils did not exist, and high lead content fuels did,
the only real way to remove it is to strip the engine and wire wheel it off rotors, etc.
Today, the critical difference is the way the exhaust is ported in the RENESIS, through side housings....as shown in Bulletin....ie...high carbon build up is BAD NEWS!!!
I don't give a rats ******* what other experts say, until Mazda recommends it I wont use it, and that's what I said when I first joined the forum..
The MA bulletin that circulated here and was some years old still applies, now we see 1+1 new bulletins to distributor/dealers from MMC (1) repeating the same warning.
WHAT ELSE DO YOU NEED TO BE TOLD...there is NO covering their **** or a conspiracy issue.
NO Manufacturer, Dealer, or Distributor can control WHAT an owner does to their car and what they may or may not put in it!.....
While I agree with RG on many of his points, its because the issues of what Synths are good are what are not, can a "blended" synthetic be used or not...blah blah blah...
Of course its easier fro MMC to have a NO RECOMMENDATION for SYNTHETICS, as they don't and wont endorse or test any particular brand, etc, etc.
Those who RACE Rotary engine vehicles should be excluded as ALL are overhauled very regularly and ALL seals are renewed....Its IS the LONG term use of synthetics and carbon build up that IS the issue, that leads to "marbles', poor performance, fowled plugs, oil control "O" Ring degradation,etc.
I know this sounds like a contradiction but CARBON build up in rotaries is nothing new...
It happened in the 70's when SYNTHETIC oils did not exist, and high lead content fuels did,
the only real way to remove it is to strip the engine and wire wheel it off rotors, etc.
Today, the critical difference is the way the exhaust is ported in the RENESIS, through side housings....as shown in Bulletin....ie...high carbon build up is BAD NEWS!!!
#105
Originally Posted by valpac
Dont know why the diff in viscosity between US and Australian cars. The service bulletin does state that Synthetic oils/blends are prohibited in all Mazda rotary engines...
I'll say this, corporations have agendas and Mazda is no different than most. It is your choice whether to believe lawyers dreamed up this bulletin to "cover their ***" and mitigate potential lawsuits or Engineers drafted this sb because they have tested synth oils in rotary engines and found them to be detrimental. Why risk it? Your choice.
I really hate reading statements from self-professed experts on this forum that say "using synth oil is fine". Such statements are irresponsible in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary.
I'll say this, corporations have agendas and Mazda is no different than most. It is your choice whether to believe lawyers dreamed up this bulletin to "cover their ***" and mitigate potential lawsuits or Engineers drafted this sb because they have tested synth oils in rotary engines and found them to be detrimental. Why risk it? Your choice.
I really hate reading statements from self-professed experts on this forum that say "using synth oil is fine". Such statements are irresponsible in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary.
#106
This has already been covered, but I was told by service at my dealer that the mazda oil is a semi-synthetic mix. I also noticed that it's green, instead of being a nice gold colour ...
... which is bizarre, I've never seen green engine oil before!
... which is bizarre, I've never seen green engine oil before!
#107
of course this will never end----- Differant opinions helps the world go around.
Guess I am just a pragmatist--but then again I (along with many others) have been supporting and using pre mix in this engine for a long time. We must have some idea what is going on.
rotor on ------
olddragger
Guess I am just a pragmatist--but then again I (along with many others) have been supporting and using pre mix in this engine for a long time. We must have some idea what is going on.
rotor on ------
olddragger
#108
Thread Starter
rock-->o<--hard place
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,242
Likes: 0
From: Canberra, AUSTRALIA
ASH8, the key word in your post is "recommend". As you are aware, initially (ie, until mid '04) there was no MRO available in Australia, so most Australian Mazda dealers were using either Mobil1 or a Castrol synth or semi-synth.
Then MRO was released, with that strange wording on the bottle which certainly suggested you didn't "need" to use it in the Renesis!
Then MRO was released, with that strange wording on the bottle which certainly suggested you didn't "need" to use it in the Renesis!
#109
The oil mystery continues , in the earlier days July 03 i contacted Mazda Australia with my concern at not having the correct as in recommended MINERAL OIL , available to us , and guess what i finally got a reply with this TBS thats been released now .
Timbo is 100% correct the so called recommended Mazda mineral oil was NOT available til mid 04 .
Michael
Timbo is 100% correct the so called recommended Mazda mineral oil was NOT available til mid 04 .
Michael
#110
Originally Posted by ASH8
Today, the critical difference is the way the exhaust is ported in the RENESIS, through side housings....as shown in Bulletin....ie...high carbon build up is BAD NEWS!!!
#111
Originally Posted by olddragger
of course this will never end----- Differant opinions helps the world go around.
I was prepared to switch, and actually did use conventional oil in my recent change, because it seemed like Mazda was finally going to make their position clear, from reading the press stories which alleged that part of the engine issue was use of synthetics.
Now that I've seen the apparently official notices, which don't mention synthetic oil at all, I see no reason not to switch back and every reason to doubt the accuracy of the press reports.
If there's really a problem, then Mazda is retarded to not take the necessary action, since they will have to spend the time and resources to fix the complaints, not to mention customer dissatisfaction. While we debate the issue endlessly and scour the WWW for evidence, Joe Consumer looks in his owners manual and sees that he needs SL oil. Period.
If Mazda wants the consumer to follow a specification, then Mazda has to ESTABLISH the specification. In no way have they done so in the American market. Yes, I've seen pictures of the little tips booklet and I've heard about the CD. That doesn't cut it and I stand by my statement. I can only conclude that synthetic oils meeting API SL, sold in the American market, are suitable for use in the Renesis engine.
#112
Thread Starter
rock-->o<--hard place
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,242
Likes: 0
From: Canberra, AUSTRALIA
Nubo, which part of:
do you not understand?
"Synthetic oils are prohibited in all Mazda rotary engines including Renesis in RX-8. Only mineral oils must be used."
#113
i think many here, dont read the whole thing....
this is a auzzy and europe thing... we just get new motors...
mazda does not have a tsb out on syn oil in the usa..
hope this helps..
beers
this is a auzzy and europe thing... we just get new motors...
mazda does not have a tsb out on syn oil in the usa..
hope this helps..
beers
#114
exactly, synth oils are apparently only prohibited in Europe and Australia. Although countries liek Italy, which don't speak English, don't even know about it!
I used Motul 8100 PAO fully-synth for 12k miles, including a full oil change at the second service and 2 track days.
My oil usage is just the same as before (if not a bit less in winter).
I am now using the mazda Dexelia stuff and again, noticed no change whatsoever.
BTW, at 33k miles, using semi-synth and fully-synth oil, I am still on the original catalyst.
Only difference, I have always used 5w-30 API SL oil
I used Motul 8100 PAO fully-synth for 12k miles, including a full oil change at the second service and 2 track days.
My oil usage is just the same as before (if not a bit less in winter).
I am now using the mazda Dexelia stuff and again, noticed no change whatsoever.
BTW, at 33k miles, using semi-synth and fully-synth oil, I am still on the original catalyst.
Only difference, I have always used 5w-30 API SL oil
#115
I think the basic issue is how the longer, stronger molecular chains in Synth oils create stronger, bigger ash particles perhaps. The clue I'm looking at is the shear properties of the oil, and Mobil 1 is one of the best in the industry in this regard. It is very resistant to burning, and it must be imagined that it would still retain this property even with fuel diluting it in the cylinder. If it WERE more resistant to being burnt, it is likely that the carbon chains might be extremely prone to clinging together in a tar-like manner, and would, of course be pushed into the tertiary port in light use.
With the upcoming PCM programming change set to inject MORE oil at light cruise (less fuel dilution), it is also likely that we *could* see an increase in the carbon issue in cars where synthetics are run (regardless whether they're a "cracked" synthetic or a full synthetic). The steady-state cruise mode would keep the cylinder heat fairly high and without the occasional opening of the 3rd port, carbon will collect there.
This is purely hypothetical conjecture on my part, but looking at the facts, the very characteristics which make synthetics great for lubrication might be the cause of their carbonizing effect in the Renesis 13B.
With the upcoming PCM programming change set to inject MORE oil at light cruise (less fuel dilution), it is also likely that we *could* see an increase in the carbon issue in cars where synthetics are run (regardless whether they're a "cracked" synthetic or a full synthetic). The steady-state cruise mode would keep the cylinder heat fairly high and without the occasional opening of the 3rd port, carbon will collect there.
This is purely hypothetical conjecture on my part, but looking at the facts, the very characteristics which make synthetics great for lubrication might be the cause of their carbonizing effect in the Renesis 13B.
Last edited by PhotoMunkey; 09-02-2006 at 02:36 PM.
#116
Originally Posted by timbo
Nubo, which part of:
Synthetic oils are prohibited in all Mazda rotary engines including Renesis in RX-8. Only mineral oils must be used.
do you not understand?
Synthetic oils are prohibited in all Mazda rotary engines including Renesis in RX-8. Only mineral oils must be used.
do you not understand?
I should have made it clear, I am stating this from a U.S. owners' perspective. Your TSB leaves no room for doubt what Mazda requires of Australian owners. However, in the USA we have no such TSB, no revision to owners' manual, etc...
So, re-read my post in that light.
#117
Nubo wrote:
If Mazda wants the consumer to follow a specification, then Mazda has to ESTABLISH the specification. In no way have they done so in the American market.
If Mazda wants the consumer to follow a specification, then Mazda has to ESTABLISH the specification. In no way have they done so in the American market.
Joe Consumer looks in his owners manual and sees that he needs SL oil. Period.
It could be worse. There are organizations like Consumers Union who think Joe Consumer shouldn't even have to look for the SL. He should just have to look for the "star" symbol. They're actually part way there. Look at a bottle of oil. The star symbol is on the front, and the API symbol (which actually conveys information) is relegated to the back.
Mazda is sticking their neck way out by saying mineral oil only in their booklet and the video. They're also sticking their neck out in the places where they say to use only 91 octane fuel. While I am a very conventional, law-abiding person, I think Mazda's hedonism and courage should be rewarded. Dino and 91 for me and my 8!
YMMV
Ken
#118
Im using Synthentic.
My engine is Alive.
18000 miles running strong.
Some ppl on the 7 boards have their engine running Full synthentic For its whole life and not even a single problem.
So? What does that mean ?
Mazda is a company people, a GOD DAMN COMPANY, CORPORATION ! THEY ARE HERE TO MAKE MONEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
damn it ...... its always ALWAYS ALWAYS easier for them ban all than testing every single one of them out there. cuz you know what, do you guys have ANY idea how MANY oils are out there.
Jesus christ people. Keep these oil thing to yourself. Use Mineral or whatever I dont care. If it works for you. Great !
but Im using Synthentic like most people , I dont buy this "corporation" bullshit. and My engine has yet to blow up. simple as that.
My engine is Alive.
18000 miles running strong.
Some ppl on the 7 boards have their engine running Full synthentic For its whole life and not even a single problem.
So? What does that mean ?
Mazda is a company people, a GOD DAMN COMPANY, CORPORATION ! THEY ARE HERE TO MAKE MONEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
damn it ...... its always ALWAYS ALWAYS easier for them ban all than testing every single one of them out there. cuz you know what, do you guys have ANY idea how MANY oils are out there.
Jesus christ people. Keep these oil thing to yourself. Use Mineral or whatever I dont care. If it works for you. Great !
but Im using Synthentic like most people , I dont buy this "corporation" bullshit. and My engine has yet to blow up. simple as that.
Last edited by nycgps; 09-03-2006 at 12:50 AM.
#119
Originally Posted by nycgps
Im using Synthentic.
My engine is Alive.
18000 miles running strong.
Some ppl on the 7 boards have their engine running Full synthentic For its whole life and not even a single problem.
So? What does that mean ?
Mazda is a company people, a GOD DAMN COMPANY, CORPORATION ! THEY ARE HERE TO MAKE MONEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
damn it ...... its always ALWAYS ALWAYS easier for them ban all than testing every single one of them out there. cuz you know what, do you guys have ANY idea how MANY oils are out there.
Jesus christ people. Keep these oil thing to yourself. Use Mineral or whatever I dont care. If it works for you. Great !
but Im using Synthentic like most people , I dont buy this "corporation" bullshit. and My engine has yet to blow up. simple as that.
My engine is Alive.
18000 miles running strong.
Some ppl on the 7 boards have their engine running Full synthentic For its whole life and not even a single problem.
So? What does that mean ?
Mazda is a company people, a GOD DAMN COMPANY, CORPORATION ! THEY ARE HERE TO MAKE MONEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
damn it ...... its always ALWAYS ALWAYS easier for them ban all than testing every single one of them out there. cuz you know what, do you guys have ANY idea how MANY oils are out there.
Jesus christ people. Keep these oil thing to yourself. Use Mineral or whatever I dont care. If it works for you. Great !
but Im using Synthentic like most people , I dont buy this "corporation" bullshit. and My engine has yet to blow up. simple as that.
Actually mate Mazda Japan have been consistent on this "corporation Bullshit"..
they have over the last 15 years or more NEVER recommended the use of ANY Synthetic oils for rotaries...so there is no bullshit..they have remained consistent.
The BULLSHIT comes from those who don't or won't listen...the owners....and no body really cares what you put down your tube, but hey, don't complain when an issue of marbles, poor performance, missing... MAY occur...hey its MAZDA'S Fault ...Right...yeah...'the land of the synthetics'.
#120
Originally Posted by fnegroni
exactly, synth oils are apparently only prohibited in Europe and Australia. Although countries liek Italy, which don't speak English, don't even know about it!
I used Motul 8100 PAO fully-synth for 12k miles, including a full oil change at the second service and 2 track days.
My oil usage is just the same as before (if not a bit less in winter).
I am now using the mazda Dexelia stuff and again, noticed no change whatsoever.
BTW, at 33k miles, using semi-synth and fully-synth oil, I am still on the original catalyst.
Only difference, I have always used 5w-30 API SL oil
I used Motul 8100 PAO fully-synth for 12k miles, including a full oil change at the second service and 2 track days.
My oil usage is just the same as before (if not a bit less in winter).
I am now using the mazda Dexelia stuff and again, noticed no change whatsoever.
BTW, at 33k miles, using semi-synth and fully-synth oil, I am still on the original catalyst.
Only difference, I have always used 5w-30 API SL oil
#121
Thread Starter
rock-->o<--hard place
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,242
Likes: 0
From: Canberra, AUSTRALIA
Originally Posted by Nubo
It's a very clear, concise declarative sentence.
I should have made it clear, I am stating this from a U.S. owners' perspective. Your TSB leaves no room for doubt what Mazda requires of Australian owners. However, in the USA we have no such TSB, no revision to owners' manual, etc...
So, re-read my post in that light.
I should have made it clear, I am stating this from a U.S. owners' perspective. Your TSB leaves no room for doubt what Mazda requires of Australian owners. However, in the USA we have no such TSB, no revision to owners' manual, etc...
So, re-read my post in that light.
are you seriously going to wait for MNA to get itself through whatever mire of regulations and specifications that bind it from saying anything along the same lines as it has said in Australia and Europe? It's the same engine in each market, same seals, ports, o-rings etc
#122
Originally Posted by timbo
ASH8, the key word in your post is "recommend". As you are aware, initially (ie, until mid '04) there was no MRO available in Australia, so most Australian Mazda dealers were using either Mobil1 or a Castrol synth or semi-synth.
Then MRO was released, with that strange wording on the bottle which certainly suggested you didn't "need" to use it in the Renesis!
Then MRO was released, with that strange wording on the bottle which certainly suggested you didn't "need" to use it in the Renesis!
I used and still do Castrol GTX3 a 10w40 MINERAL OIL....fantastic.....and cheaper than MA's MRO...and great for our summer's.
Sure its a little heavier, but, most if not all new oils thin within 500 kilometres of use.
IMO this has been part of the problem in the US using a 0w20, way too light for high temp use...(even though their gradings/standards are slightly different to ours, and I said this in 2005 when they had failures in Nevada, oil that light would have been BOILING and BURNING)
#123
Originally Posted by ken-x8
They can't. In the US motor oil specification is an industry standard, and Mazda can't freelance - even if they have good technical reasons. They're legally stuck
It could be worse. There are organizations like Consumers Union who think Joe Consumer shouldn't even have to look for the SL. He should just have to look for the "star" symbol. They're actually part way there. Look at a bottle of oil. The star symbol is on the front, and the API symbol (which actually conveys information) is relegated to the back.
Mazda is sticking their neck way out by saying mineral oil only in their booklet and the video. They're also sticking their neck out in the places where they say to use only 91 octane fuel. While I am a very conventional, law-abiding person, I think Mazda's hedonism and courage should be rewarded. Dino and 91 for me and my 8!
YMMV
Ken
Mazda is sticking their neck way out by saying mineral oil only in their booklet and the video. They're also sticking their neck out in the places where they say to use only 91 octane fuel. While I am a very conventional, law-abiding person, I think Mazda's hedonism and courage should be rewarded. Dino and 91 for me and my 8!
YMMV
Ken
#124
Originally Posted by ASH8
Actually mate Mazda Japan have been consistent on this "corporation Bullshit"..
they have over the last 15 years or more NEVER recommended the use of ANY Synthetic oils for rotaries...so there is no bullshit..they have remained consistent.
The BULLSHIT comes from those who don't or won't listen...the owners....and no body really cares what you put down your tube, but hey, don't complain when an issue of marbles, poor performance, missing... MAY occur...hey its MAZDA'S Fault ...Right...yeah...'the land of the synthetics'.
they have over the last 15 years or more NEVER recommended the use of ANY Synthetic oils for rotaries...so there is no bullshit..they have remained consistent.
The BULLSHIT comes from those who don't or won't listen...the owners....and no body really cares what you put down your tube, but hey, don't complain when an issue of marbles, poor performance, missing... MAY occur...hey its MAZDA'S Fault ...Right...yeah...'the land of the synthetics'.
Yeah, I also wonder how many years it took before Harley Davidson accept Synthentic Oil.
people who use Mineral have marbles, poor performance, missing .... what? Sure its NOT Mazda's fault. Its not their fault that they didnt program their PCM right.
Sorry to disappoint you that I just dont have any problems when using Synthentic, and theres no one can give people hard prove. Oh, I think two rotor post a pic of his Synthentic Motor , take a look at it. wheres carbon.
#125
Originally Posted by ASH8
Actually mate Mazda Japan have been consistent on this "corporation Bullshit"..
they have over the last 15 years or more NEVER recommended the use of ANY Synthetic oils for rotaries...so there is no bullshit..they have remained consistent.
The BULLSHIT comes from those who don't or won't listen...the owners....and no body really cares what you put down your tube, but hey, don't complain when an issue of marbles, poor performance, missing... MAY occur...hey its MAZDA'S Fault ...Right...yeah...'the land of the synthetics'.
they have over the last 15 years or more NEVER recommended the use of ANY Synthetic oils for rotaries...so there is no bullshit..they have remained consistent.
The BULLSHIT comes from those who don't or won't listen...the owners....and no body really cares what you put down your tube, but hey, don't complain when an issue of marbles, poor performance, missing... MAY occur...hey its MAZDA'S Fault ...Right...yeah...'the land of the synthetics'.
Yeah, I also wonder how many years it took before Harley Davidson accept Synthentic Oil.
people who use Mineral have marbles, poor performance, missing .... what? Sure its NOT Mazda's fault. Its not their fault that they didnt program their PCM right. some people's A/C rough idle issue has been corrected by using Synthentic oil. Oh yes. That must be Mazda's fault too.
Sorry to disappoint you but I just dont have any problems using Synthentic. Oh, I think two rotor post a pic of his Synthentic Motor , take a look at it. wheres the carbon.
Too bad. my engine is still alive.
My personal experience might be a little short (18K miles only), but I have no problems with Synthentic. So just mind your own business and stick with your mineral.