Octane booster Info/Questions
#26
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Re: Excess 'octane'........
Originally posted by Doctorr
Mixes with more than 25% X&T would probably be a little heavy for freezing weather, they would need more heat to vaporize them in the intake
Mixes with more than 25% X&T would probably be a little heavy for freezing weather, they would need more heat to vaporize them in the intake
Originally posted by Doctorr
conversely, they would provide a cooler intake charge on a hot day!
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doc
conversely, they would provide a cooler intake charge on a hot day!
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doc
#27
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Originally posted by Smoker
Can someone explain to me how does the ECU retard the engine timing to prevent detonation ?
I'm not familar with detonation and engine timing in relations to the engine performance. Thanks.
Can someone explain to me how does the ECU retard the engine timing to prevent detonation ?
I'm not familar with detonation and engine timing in relations to the engine performance. Thanks.
#28
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Originally posted by Farsyde
i would guess the spark plugs are ignited early/late (retard/advance) so they are ignited under lower/higher pressure, whichever the need may be
i would guess the spark plugs are ignited early/late (retard/advance) so they are ignited under lower/higher pressure, whichever the need may be
anyways, this is so cool, i'ma sticky it.
*STICKY!!*
#29
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Originally posted by P00Man
what if you were to run nitrous through your tank?
ive got lots of the stuff sitting around cause my brotherse play with RC-cars, things are damn fast and run on 30 or 40% nitro, it would probably blow your engine or something but itd be a neat expirement.
really dont know much about it, and the stuffs real pricey, but it will make for some good discussion me thinks
what if you were to run nitrous through your tank?
ive got lots of the stuff sitting around cause my brotherse play with RC-cars, things are damn fast and run on 30 or 40% nitro, it would probably blow your engine or something but itd be a neat expirement.
really dont know much about it, and the stuffs real pricey, but it will make for some good discussion me thinks
#30
btw TDC = top dead center of the piston
just called sherwin williams in so cal
5 gal jug @ 34.75
1 gal jug @ 7.95
i've to call out my buddy to see where he get his 1 gal jug at 4 something ??
Thanks wakeech for reminding the difference between nitro and nitrous
i don't want some of you pouring nitro (RC car gas) or Nitrous (nozzz) down your fuel tank and blame ME for it
btw, i am thinking of trying the xylene on my Nitro Rc first
it's a .12 2 stroke, any benefits? just want it to blow up far away if it does :D
just called sherwin williams in so cal
5 gal jug @ 34.75
1 gal jug @ 7.95
i've to call out my buddy to see where he get his 1 gal jug at 4 something ??
Thanks wakeech for reminding the difference between nitro and nitrous
i don't want some of you pouring nitro (RC car gas) or Nitrous (nozzz) down your fuel tank and blame ME for it
btw, i am thinking of trying the xylene on my Nitro Rc first
it's a .12 2 stroke, any benefits? just want it to blow up far away if it does :D
#31
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Originally posted by wakeech
yup... ignition retardation means that the ECU waits until after TDC to ignite the charge, so that the charge is under less compression... it'll almost never advance timing very far before TDC, as that would incur something extremely similar to detonation (pre-ignition)
yup... ignition retardation means that the ECU waits until after TDC to ignite the charge, so that the charge is under less compression... it'll almost never advance timing very far before TDC, as that would incur something extremely similar to detonation (pre-ignition)
#32
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Originally posted by Smoker
Hold on, I thought detonation is defined as the Air Fuel mixture combust by themselves BEFORE TDC. So how would igniting the Air Fuel mixture slightly after TDC helps this situations ??? I just don't understand how these fits together.
Hold on, I thought detonation is defined as the Air Fuel mixture combust by themselves BEFORE TDC. So how would igniting the Air Fuel mixture slightly after TDC helps this situations ??? I just don't understand how these fits together.
#34
supposely nothing cuz xylene and toulene is part of pump gas already
it would have the same effect as octane booster in a bottle, nothing.
plus you are dilluting it with gasoline, we are not running straight xylene...
it would have the same effect as octane booster in a bottle, nothing.
plus you are dilluting it with gasoline, we are not running straight xylene...
#35
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Would xylene help pass an emissions test? Or does it add chemicals in the exhaust that would cause it to fail the test?
If it works, a gallon of xylene seems like a better choice than a small bottle of emissions fuel additive.
If it works, a gallon of xylene seems like a better choice than a small bottle of emissions fuel additive.
#36
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Originally posted by plb
Would xylene help pass an emissions test? Or does it add chemicals in the exhaust that would cause it to fail the test?
If it works, a gallon of xylene seems like a better choice than a small bottle of emissions fuel additive.
Would xylene help pass an emissions test? Or does it add chemicals in the exhaust that would cause it to fail the test?
If it works, a gallon of xylene seems like a better choice than a small bottle of emissions fuel additive.
whenever you combust a very pure oganic chemical, like if you had 100% toluene or whatever, you're going to get a very clean burn, as most everything is H or C.
#37
I'm confused.
First things first - how can Xylene be a "high power" fuel? Aren't we talking about chemical engergy? And the chemical engergy would be greater for a given volume than other HC mixtures? I know it sounds like splitting hairs, but power is something way different.
As for increased performance on running Xylene - everything I've been taught goes along with what got said earlier (once you have enough "octane," there's no use for any more). So how does increasing the energy "density" of your fuel aid in completing useful work through the engine? So does a smaller amount of fuel output the same amount of work when running a high Xylene mixture? Does the new mixture effect efficiency or useful work when compared to a fuel that exceeds the standards set to prevent pre-ignition (octane requirement)?
I've always heard the conventional wisdom that you go with the lowest octane rating you can run without risking pre-ignition (or in most new engines - having the ECM step in and retard the timing). That's the same thing I learned in my thermodynamics classes, etc.
I guess I'm not following the basic idea here - what does the Xylene actually affect, and to what extent? Maybe I need to find me a ChemE to talk to... or maybe someone who will just explain things really slowly...
First things first - how can Xylene be a "high power" fuel? Aren't we talking about chemical engergy? And the chemical engergy would be greater for a given volume than other HC mixtures? I know it sounds like splitting hairs, but power is something way different.
As for increased performance on running Xylene - everything I've been taught goes along with what got said earlier (once you have enough "octane," there's no use for any more). So how does increasing the energy "density" of your fuel aid in completing useful work through the engine? So does a smaller amount of fuel output the same amount of work when running a high Xylene mixture? Does the new mixture effect efficiency or useful work when compared to a fuel that exceeds the standards set to prevent pre-ignition (octane requirement)?
I've always heard the conventional wisdom that you go with the lowest octane rating you can run without risking pre-ignition (or in most new engines - having the ECM step in and retard the timing). That's the same thing I learned in my thermodynamics classes, etc.
I guess I'm not following the basic idea here - what does the Xylene actually affect, and to what extent? Maybe I need to find me a ChemE to talk to... or maybe someone who will just explain things really slowly...
#38
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as was said before, it's not a "high power" fuel at all. It IS a component of all gasoline. It just happens to be a very pure form.
Think of it like Koolaid. Youve got some drink mix: like Tuelene, sugar like xylene, and a whole lotta water: like the remaining mix.
If you have all water and no mix or sugar, it's a crappy drink. Just like having all propane components makes a lesser octane or lesser quality "filler" for the gas. Now you add sugar and mix and the drink gets better and better. But it doesnt change the "power" of the fuel. Eventually there is a point where you cannot desolve anymore mix or sugar called saturation (octane limit).
Since Xylene and Tuelene are already in fuel, adding them only increases the octane to a cetain asymptotic point. All this does is help prevent detonation (pre ignition) which in a stock application may of may not help your car. But since the tuelene and xylene burn very cleanly there will be less carbon and other "junk" left behind. Imagine the boost levels you could reach that are normally octane limited!
Think of it like Koolaid. Youve got some drink mix: like Tuelene, sugar like xylene, and a whole lotta water: like the remaining mix.
If you have all water and no mix or sugar, it's a crappy drink. Just like having all propane components makes a lesser octane or lesser quality "filler" for the gas. Now you add sugar and mix and the drink gets better and better. But it doesnt change the "power" of the fuel. Eventually there is a point where you cannot desolve anymore mix or sugar called saturation (octane limit).
Since Xylene and Tuelene are already in fuel, adding them only increases the octane to a cetain asymptotic point. All this does is help prevent detonation (pre ignition) which in a stock application may of may not help your car. But since the tuelene and xylene burn very cleanly there will be less carbon and other "junk" left behind. Imagine the boost levels you could reach that are normally octane limited!
#39
Thanks Farsyde -
I suppose I asked for the Kool-Aid description now didn't I. However, I do understand that it's a component of gasoline (which is a pretty generic term in and of itself) and it's proportion relies heavily on process conditions at your local refinery. As for the power, that's what I was getting at - there's no power associated with fuels. Power deals with work and time, not chemical energy.
You did answer my question though - it's just used to improve octane. So I suppose the real advantage over a fuel with a similar octane rating is the cleaner emissions output.
So why would anyone pay between $5-10 a gallon to boost the octane for an unmodified NA car? If pump gas meets the requirement and you're not gung-ho green, then why switch? I understand the change if you want to run boost or mess with the compression ratio, but that's the heart of my question - is there something else achieved with Xylene?
I suppose I asked for the Kool-Aid description now didn't I. However, I do understand that it's a component of gasoline (which is a pretty generic term in and of itself) and it's proportion relies heavily on process conditions at your local refinery. As for the power, that's what I was getting at - there's no power associated with fuels. Power deals with work and time, not chemical energy.
You did answer my question though - it's just used to improve octane. So I suppose the real advantage over a fuel with a similar octane rating is the cleaner emissions output.
So why would anyone pay between $5-10 a gallon to boost the octane for an unmodified NA car? If pump gas meets the requirement and you're not gung-ho green, then why switch? I understand the change if you want to run boost or mess with the compression ratio, but that's the heart of my question - is there something else achieved with Xylene?
#40
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Originally posted by Boozehound
So why would anyone pay between $5-10 a gallon to boost the octane for an unmodified NA car? If pump gas meets the requirement and you're not gung-ho green, then why switch?
So why would anyone pay between $5-10 a gallon to boost the octane for an unmodified NA car? If pump gas meets the requirement and you're not gung-ho green, then why switch?
unless you've really got a high performance vehicle and want to run your 22psi through your 66-1 Garrett turbo to make like 500 rwhp all the time, you really don't need to make the switch, yet.
if you, say, rebuild the engine, and Mazda offers like, i dunno, blank rotors so you can grind your own depression, and choose to go for like an 11:1 ratio, with a p-port and a 12k rpm redline, maybe you'd wanna do it. it just depends on the application.
#41
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hey, I can add soemthing to this...
Several of the 3rd gen turbo guys here aroudn DFW are runninga tolulene mix on their cars and for the month or so have had no problems...
That being said, I don't really see the point of the extra expense on the Rx8s. While a boosted rotary will be able to run higher boost levels with a greater tolerance to detonation a normally aspirated rotary engine will see no power gains from running a higher octane due to the longer conmubustion burn...
And furthermore, the Rx8s for now are running some wicked rich a/f #s no there is no worry of detonation at all, and even if so, a NA engine can handle that pretty well..
That being said, with no gain from power, and no need for reduced detonation, I see no reason to run this on your Rx8s. It's just going to take extra effort and cost extra money...
FWIW the 787b race car ran it's lemans race on 85 or 87 octane and won... I figure they know what they're doing...
Several of the 3rd gen turbo guys here aroudn DFW are runninga tolulene mix on their cars and for the month or so have had no problems...
That being said, I don't really see the point of the extra expense on the Rx8s. While a boosted rotary will be able to run higher boost levels with a greater tolerance to detonation a normally aspirated rotary engine will see no power gains from running a higher octane due to the longer conmubustion burn...
And furthermore, the Rx8s for now are running some wicked rich a/f #s no there is no worry of detonation at all, and even if so, a NA engine can handle that pretty well..
That being said, with no gain from power, and no need for reduced detonation, I see no reason to run this on your Rx8s. It's just going to take extra effort and cost extra money...
FWIW the 787b race car ran it's lemans race on 85 or 87 octane and won... I figure they know what they're doing...
#42
I read on a website that LOWER octane is best for NA rotary engines. Instead of explaining, i'll just give the link. I don't know what is the recommended octane is for the the RX-8, but if this is true for all NA rotaries like the article said, adding these expensive additives to your RX-8 would have a negative effect http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/cfaqtext.html#ROCTANE
#43
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There is a difference between the Octane rating, and the power potential. For instance, LPG can run at a higher comp. ratio because it has an Octane rating of about 110. But you get less power from it, as the calorific value is lower (the amount of energy available).
In Oz, we are recommended to use 95 RON fuel. Now I know I can increase the octane rating of my fuel by using some "go-go juice" such as toluene, but what I wan't to know is that going to give more available energy for combustion - hence more torque = more power??
It seemed like that is what the doc was talking about earlier on in this thread, but it has degenerated since then into arguments about whether the '8 needs higher octane fuel.
Cheers,
Hymee.
In Oz, we are recommended to use 95 RON fuel. Now I know I can increase the octane rating of my fuel by using some "go-go juice" such as toluene, but what I wan't to know is that going to give more available energy for combustion - hence more torque = more power??
It seemed like that is what the doc was talking about earlier on in this thread, but it has degenerated since then into arguments about whether the '8 needs higher octane fuel.
Cheers,
Hymee.
#44
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Originally posted by Hymee
I know I can increase the octane rating of my fuel by using some "go-go juice" such as toluene, but what I wan't to know is that going to give more available energy for combustion - hence more torque = more power??
It seemed like that is what the doc was talking about earlier on in this thread.
Cheers,
Hymee.
I know I can increase the octane rating of my fuel by using some "go-go juice" such as toluene, but what I wan't to know is that going to give more available energy for combustion - hence more torque = more power??
It seemed like that is what the doc was talking about earlier on in this thread.
Cheers,
Hymee.
Originally posted by Doctorr
From a power point of view though, you are definately increasing.
You can make a fine 'high octane' gasoline with lots of C3/C4 (propane/butane, a refinery waste liquid). Lots of octane and the most miserable fuel you ever put in your tank. But xylene or toluene has lots of power, and even makes a difference in the density - average gas would be in the .76 density range, toluene is around .85 - this makes a real difference in the available power per volume (gallon).
From a power point of view though, you are definately increasing.
You can make a fine 'high octane' gasoline with lots of C3/C4 (propane/butane, a refinery waste liquid). Lots of octane and the most miserable fuel you ever put in your tank. But xylene or toluene has lots of power, and even makes a difference in the density - average gas would be in the .76 density range, toluene is around .85 - this makes a real difference in the available power per volume (gallon).
...there you have it.
yes.
#45
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Xylene question
BUMP for my question. My daily driver right now is a 95 Honda civic sedan with the D15B7 1.5L engine. I have added a true cold air intake, DC sports 4-2-1 header with 2.5" cat-less exhaust and an MSD 6A ignition and distributor. My car only has a 9 gallon tank. If I add 8 gallons of 93octane and 1 gallon of 115octane that only yields an approximate octane of 95.6. Is my math correct? If this is the case will this prove benneficial to my car? I also was able to buy 1 gallon cans of "pure" Xylene from Home Depot for $4.97/per. I've checked several variations on this and I'm stumped. If I mix 7gal 93o with 2 gal 115o I only get a mix of 86.7 octane?? Am I figuring this wrong? Please advice doc
#47
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I'm a moron! I just bought a clue.
I found my error. I was adding 2 gallons of 115octane as 130! not 230! I knew it just wasn't making any sense to me! Wow, who feels dumb right now? Take a step forward, not so fast everyone else, but me!
Anyway, now that my math is cleared up does anyone know if this octane will benefit my NA car with upgraded airflow and ignition mods? Any estimates on power??
Anyway, now that my math is cleared up does anyone know if this octane will benefit my NA car with upgraded airflow and ignition mods? Any estimates on power??
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Hey Doctorr
Obviously you know your fuel. What do you have to say on adding ethanol to fuel? On my simple calculations, ethanol has a heat of combustion 33% lower than iso-octane (33kJ/g compared to 44kJ/g). Our federal government is in coalition with an agrarian party which is desperate to shore up support among their sugar cane growing constituents, who are going broke due to overseas competition, reduced sugar consumption, and of course inefficiencies. Oh, and the prime minister's mate has a couple of ethanol distilleries.
The news broke today that the government is sitting on a report which gives manufacturer's recommendations on which cars should not use ethanol-laced fuel. The government claims it is seeking more evidence. Government members claim that certain US states subsidize ethanol in fuel, and it does no harm to cars. They also say it can be added up to 20%. They say that the same oil companies who are against adding EtOH in Australia are praising it in the USA.
What's your take on this?
Obviously you know your fuel. What do you have to say on adding ethanol to fuel? On my simple calculations, ethanol has a heat of combustion 33% lower than iso-octane (33kJ/g compared to 44kJ/g). Our federal government is in coalition with an agrarian party which is desperate to shore up support among their sugar cane growing constituents, who are going broke due to overseas competition, reduced sugar consumption, and of course inefficiencies. Oh, and the prime minister's mate has a couple of ethanol distilleries.
The news broke today that the government is sitting on a report which gives manufacturer's recommendations on which cars should not use ethanol-laced fuel. The government claims it is seeking more evidence. Government members claim that certain US states subsidize ethanol in fuel, and it does no harm to cars. They also say it can be added up to 20%. They say that the same oil companies who are against adding EtOH in Australia are praising it in the USA.
What's your take on this?