Ole Spiff

Just got back from the focus group meeting at Racing Beat. There were about 16 of us there; mostly locals with one guy all the way from San Diego.

Met with Jim Langer and Jim Mederer and one of the co-owners (can't remember his name at the moment). The focus group was about a possible front end body kit (can't give specifics). We all talked about the drawings and sketch proposals and hopefully our feedback was of some use to RB. One of the designs was pretty sleek and cool looking; it will be interesting to see which one they go with or if they modify it based on our comments.

We also got a good tour through the development facility. I'll post a pic showing Jim Mederer at his development test bench for ECU programming.

We got to see where they make the exhaust systems, and Jim Langer said they have the finalized design and are gearing up to produce them in quantities. He also said they are almost finished with their intake which sounds like it will be pretty neat; I can't give details at this time but the main feature will be noise level reduction.

We got to see the dyno room with a Renesis hooked up (which they started and ran for us). They had a "competitor's" air intake hooked up and we were all shocked at how loud it got at the higher rpm's. It produced a power increase of about 7hp but only between 8,500 and 9,000 rpm, and it was so loud it almost hurt your ears.

We learned a lot about the complexities and challenges of designing intake, exhaust and ECU mods which was great info.

They had a silver RX-8 there with their mods on it, and the RB exhaust does sound very rich and sweet. I'll definitely be getting one (none were available tonight unfortunately or I'd have one now). They said their main focus on intake and exhaust mods is sound quality since so little hp gain is achievable. He said with no exhaust at all there is only a 5hp increase; with their exhaust it will be about 3.5hp increase. Their intake should add about 4.5hp he said, but with both of these mods (as with everybody else's) the gains are only seen at the high end of the rpm range. Mazda engineers apparently did a remarkable job of extracting almost all of the available horsepower out of this setup.

On the handling front, Jim said RB's sway bars will increase the handling by 3/10ths of a G which will make a noticable difference. One of the guys who showed up had RB's sway bars and he said the car is noticably flatter when cornering; no noticable degradation of ride quality.

All in all we had a great time; learned a lot, enjoyed the pizza, soda and socializing of fellow RX-8 owners. We had every color represented in the parking lot (I have a photo of most of us; a few showed up in non-RX-8's but we let them in anyways hehehe)

Ole Spiff

Here's a better shot of our cars:

Ole Spiff

Here's a shot of Jim Mederer at his wizard bench for ECU programming.

Ole Spiff

Here's a shot of the dyno room where they test mods on a Renesis.

G8rboy

Thanks for the detailed report- I've been waiting to see what RB can come up with for an intake. It's refreshing to see they're being so honest about the small gains that can be had from these mods. That's pretty damn cool they have a test Renesis!

Gord96BRG

So what about the ECU tuning? Are they going to have a Canzoomer-alternative available any time soon? It's listed as 'coming soon' on their web site - but it's been listed thusly for a couple of months, and we've heard no news...

That's where the power is, from Canzoomer's results, rather than (more profitable) intake and exhaust - so what are they doing, and when?

Regards,
Gordon

robertdot

I don't know if they'll confer with you guys again, but if they want people to buy a body kit, they need to make it out of something better than fiberglass (pref. the stuff the stock bumpers are made of or carbon fiber) and it needs to mount to the stock equipment. There is nothing worse than having to drill on a new car to install a kit that will break if you run into a parking block.

And if they can do this and get it cheaper than the MS and ING kits, that would be nice. Pre-painted would be a plus, too, but that is asking alot.

JimW

Did anyone find out what the stock H.P. figure was using the chasis dyno?

slavearm

215-218 stock everything

Yup... mazda really does owe us some horsepower, because there horsepower numbers are horse$#!7.

And that is at the flywheel.

rxeightr

slavearm,
Did you attend this event? Was that the numbers Racing Beat said?

ashmason

Ok, Guilty, I showed up in the Silverstone S2000 sneaking into the pic at the far right. My wife had the RX-8 for the day.

One thing I took away from this event is how Racing Beat approach the development. Everything they are doing has to be repeatable and usable, or they don't do it. Take the intake, the one they had on the Dyno does actually make significant HP at peak, great from a marketing point of view. But it only makes it at the very top of the rev range, and it makes your ears bleed.

Racing Beat on the other hand is spending a lot of time getting a moderate HP gain, but keeping the sound down to a respectable level and having the extra HP available in a more usable range.

Same thinking with the exhaust system, the quality of it is without question and uses high grade materials.

Finally the ECU, it seems that Mazda have done some very trick programming. They are trying to figure out the value of some of these techniques along with getting a handle on the best way to reprogram the ECU for real world repeatable gains. They are approaching it in a very scientific manner and testing the heck out of everything to understand it all. Personally I would wait for this Mod from Racing Beat because when they release it, I will be confident that it's right with no surprises.

As of this moment though I am taking Jim's comment to heart. Best bang for the buck is the suspension upgrades, so thats my first mod.

I am excited about the body work they are considering and will be watching with interest.

zoom44

ahh but if mazda got 225 fly wheel when they did their testing then it is within the 5% allowed. hence no "owing" us anything. and they have figures to prove that.

mikeb

so the k&n does make some HP

Omicron

I'll betcha that wasn't the K&N.

Interesting report Ole, thanks mucho for the update!

ranger4277

Thank you so much for the updates guys.

I wonder what PCM version yielded the 218. It would be interesting to see how top end is affected on the different versions... then again it would also be interesting to see aftermarket ECU solutions' effect as well. (to the flywheel of course)

Assuming acceptable drivetrain loss around 15%, their findings kind of shoot down the whole "low dyno" phenomenon that has been claimed... not to get on that subject, just observing.

zoom44

side note- there is an article in the upcoming May issue of RXTuner discussing some of the differences between the PCM updates.

Ole Spiff

The Renesis we saw dynoed was completely stock, except for the air intake. The dyno shows about 218hp.

The ECU project they are working on is quite a task. Jim went to great lengths explaining to us what's involved (and showing some impressive abilities of his self-created testing/programming bench which I included a shot of him sitting at in my previous post). As someone said, Mazda did indeed do some complex and trick stuff with the ECU. It apparently has several maps; an acceleration map for gears 1-4, another map for gears 5 & 6, and another map for deceleration!

Jim explained he is taking the time to test each part of the programming (they've downloaded it and are taking it apart piece by piece) to see what it does so he can understand what is actually going on. He is VERY heavily insistent on accuracy and repeatable results. The RB ECU mod will involve multiple maps too, and he is going to do one that takes into account RB's intake and exhaust mods so it would be a package of sorts. Should be a real winner.

He is very conservative with his numbers and estimates. He said combining the intake, exhaust and ECU mods would probably give somewhere between 20 and 30 hp increase. Enough to make a difference, but not a massive increase.

I really liked their attitude and approach to things. They are true professionals and very obviously enthusiasts; Jim said he loves the RX-8. They drive around with a decibel meter in hand testing the sound levels in the car at all rpms when they are developing exhaust and intake systems. Jim stated they are going for the "Formula 1 Ferrari" sound for all their mods combined; yet they don't want the noise level to be irritating at normal or freeway speeds.

He showed us a multi-level rack with dozens of test designs of all kinds of configurations that they built and tested before they came up with the final design for their exhaust kit. They REALLY put a lot of effort into quality of everything; not just performance at all costs. They repeatedly stated the RX-8 was such a classy and beautiful car, they refuse to put out any product that would harm that experience. Hence the long development times for exhaust, intake and ECU.

Personally I think it's going to be well worth the wait and I plan on buying all three mods, and probably the sway bars too. I've done business with them before and they make first rate products and are a class act all the way.

Zoom49

Intake on the engine dyno was the K&N and was tested and provided up to 7hp gain from 8,500 to 9,000 rpm. Intake was so loud with engine running on stock exhaust, that 7" concrete walls were no match. With the door to the dyno room open it was ear splitting.Sounded like they had a real good handle on what was needed with the ecu. I would expect however that they will take their time to make it right the first time. They are very through in their design approach, and the engine dyno gives them a repeatable way to test gains and eliminate chassis and other variables.I was very impressed with Jim's understanding of the challenges ahead. IMO they are a minimum of 6 months away on the ecu.

ranger4277

Oh... so completely stock we're looking at more like 210 flywheel HP. That is a little beyond the 5% rule if you ask me.

Japan8

I like their philosophy! One question, though, is the current issue with a mid-pipe w/ and w/o cat + resonator. How loud does the RB exhaust get?

On the intake side... I wonder if their planned change does anything with the VFAD and if they planned to make any changes via the ECU to the SDAIS. Do they think that there is any power to gain in a modified upper and/or lower intake? The JDM MS RX-8 apparently has some change in the VFAD... seems like a larger diameter tube. Other changes include the cat and larger diameter pipes in the exhaust system.

Things that may indeed show some improvement is using dynamat extreme (as some other forum members have suggested) in the intake. Ceramic coating will give a SS heat shield, better here resistance, but only change the harmonics of the shield. Going the Auto Exe route with a all CF one may not be a bad idea except for cost. As Mr. Oku seems to regularly travel to Japan (the RB exhaust for the 8 and upcoming products are mentioned in a page article in the current issue of RX-7 Magazine)... I would suggest grabbing a hold of two intakes... the new HKS Racing Suction and especially the Trust/GReddy intake. The second represents a different design that the others... K&N, RE and HKS... thus its results may prove to be interesting. Supposedly resonance tuned for better mid-range power...

Just a few thoughts. RB if you're listening, I hope they prove helpful.

JimW

It also sounds like the flywheel loss is around 18% considering most people dyno around 180 at the wheels. either that or the ecu is reducing 8 H.P. from limp mode and the actual Flywheel loss is !0%?

JimW

2

JimW

211 H.P. at the flywheel is 13% lower than Mazdas calculations, or 6% more than the 5% rule. However I feel that is a small loss that could easily be made up in mods, hopefully? Mazda might have actually had a motor run 238 H.P. a lot of factors could also be involved as well, such as temp, correctly seated seals ect.

brillo

what PCM version is the testing engine using? I didn't see that answer

JimW

Good question! I don't think it was ever flashed, I think they had the engine before all the flashes came about, but I'm not sure.