rotarygod

An oil system upgrade for S1 RX-8 people would be to use the TII oil pump and a higher pressure regulator. Finding a way to get fans on the oil coolers so there is airflow through them when vehicle speed is low would also be a good idea.

PhillipM

It will do the first time you have an oil cooler get blocked/damaged during a race, you need to know about it asap

ASH8

Replies..

IMO the jury is out on the E-shaft pellet as we know it originates from the 24 yo FC RX-7 and has not changed...it serves a purpose, but you do not want it to fail, some say leave it other "rotary oldies" like it removed...I think if I was doing a rebuild I would remove it, only then.

09 Pump, I think it will fit OK it uses the same drive chain but it is a different looking beast, I can't be sure it would FIX or Bolt on correctly as the iron Housing it fixes on has changed.
It also By-Passes at the OCV Outside of engine.
It also supplies and returns (back to sump) oil to the two EMOP's.
Oil Filter has a higher By-Pass pressure. (Would fit a Series 1).

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

unless you have a warning light...it is likely the temp difference before you notice it will be negligible......especially with the OEM oil volume

ASH8

Need some discussion on this idea of mine..

To improve Oil Pressure in Series 1 why not just install a Series II (09) Oil Filter, it is slightly longer (higher), will definitely fit, BUT it has a much higher By Pass Valve Opening pressure...

Series 1 @ 3000 RPM is 11-17 PSI
Series 2 @ 3000 RPM is 20-26 PSI

Would this not improve oil pressure and flow through coolers and engine improving your oil filtering too...I am thinking YES..as all the other pump by pass vales don't open until 64-71 PSI.

When you think if it 11-17 PSI is pretty low in a Series I Oil Filter (same as every other rotary, except S2) it would be by passing most of the time, move it up higher and you improve engines oil pressure.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Doesn't work that way....maybe if you changed the regulator....

Changing the bypass pressure just changes the pressure the filter is bypassed

ASH8

Yeah, it is not going to help at all.. really is it ..DOH!!....means having to get to the regulator which is not so simple..

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

I would think the higher bypass pressure would be a good thing......

I have a non-bypass filter on mine.....there is no way in hell I don't want the oil filtered...but you need a special filter to do this...and you need to be really careful you change your oil and filter enough.....you wouldn't want the filter to become a pressure regulator

PhillipM

Not really, it's going into the cooler @ 110*c, it comes out of the cooler @ 40-45*c, so if it gets blocked or damaged, the output would jump massively very quickly, don't see what the oil volume has to do with it, it's only the volume in the oil cooler that would need to pass through it before it registered, and that's bugger all.

ASH8

This shows the 09 oil flow, the main difference is the EMOP system which is fed by high oil pressure feed going outside of engine (SEE RED) to EMOP (Solenoid Valves not pumps) and back down to the sump pan.

Also the oil regulator is outside of the engine and controlled by the OCV Oil Control Valve..see ORANGE.which then by passes back down to the sump.

BLUE shows the internal engine oil movement.

My only concern with using an 09 Oil Pump on a Series 1 would be too much oil pressure and what could be the consequences??

Probably the best idea would be to get to the by pass regulator and change it's by pass spring and leave the original oil pump??

ASH8

This was part of my thinking, using an 09 filter your oil will be better filtered as the oil is not by passing until 20-26 PSI instead of 11-17.
I also like to add a magnet to catch small metal crap.

It is obvious Mazda F**Ked up big time with these few critical issues, WHY, to add extra oil coolers, extra and longer supply/return lines and position them further from the oil pump without an increase in Oil Pressure is Bloody Madness.

Plus you have an engine (RENESIS) that REVS Higher than any other engine sold before with the same oil pressure as an FC RX-7 of 24 years ago.

What the hell was wrong with their engineers, why did they not see this?? to me it is a no brainer.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Really though there is a point where there is too much oil pressure (and flow)...that robs HP, blows seals..... and doesn't improve anything.....


I would hope they have a better idea on this than I do

ASH8

Yeah, thought about oil seals because of too much oil pressure...
Interestingly Mazda did not change any engine seals in 09, same as S1.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

does this make sense
let me preach on it:
The bypass setting of the filter will not have any influence on what the oil pressure will be downstream of the filter. The filter's restrictiveness will determine that ... but only when the oil pump is in relief mode. When the oil pump is not in relief mode, then all the oil from the pump goes through the filter/engine circuit (positive displacement pump), and you will not see any pressure reduction - even with a more restrictive filter. But, in pump relief mode, a more restrictive filter will show less oil pressure downstream of the filter than a better flowing filter would under the same conditions.
Higher oil filter bypass will also be worse for cold starts.
Hell maybe for the series 1 it is time for a separate by pass filter--Dan is that what you are running?
Confused yet?
OD

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

The filter bypass opens when the pressure is higher than the bypass...allowing unfiltered oil to circulate past the filter


I have a filter with no bypass...it is full flow......the oil has to flow through it


You'd better be damn sure that it doesn't get plugged up But you get all your oil filtered

I still don't think on a manually watched system that the oil temp will be noticed before the system heat soaks the oil in the pan..

On a system with telemetry, and a dedicated computer and engineer watching the temps...sure, they will pick it up quickly...

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

They sell filters without a bypass?

ASH8

Thanks OD...I think..

So effectively as I have always thought the "relief" valve on an oil pump or regulator will only open or by pass at a Higher RPM (say 3000-8000 plus) or when pressure from the pump exceeds the (S1) 64-71 PSI...correct?

To increase the By-Pass pressure one would have to replace the relief valve spring to a heavier guage or stronger compression type, Correct?

IMO this could be safely done without fear of "blowing" or "leaking" at any oil seals or related as these have not changed at all between both RX-8 series.

OD, would it not be better for Series 1 owners to use the 09 Oil Filter as it has a Higher By Pass rating...from 13 (S1) to 23 (S2) PSI (Average), therefore more oil will be flowing through the filter and being filtered before it went into by pass mode...Correct?

Something I would not mind being cleared up as I was always under the impression that Engine Oil is always being 'filtered', but excess oil or higher flow because of increased oil pressure is by-passed, however, some oil still continues to be filtered?
Or is it the case when the By-Pass pressure is reached NO volume of Oil is being Filtered?

Which one is the case??

Dan, It is interesting how Mazda Call their Oil Filters in both RX-8's as a "Full-flow, paper element" according to their Service Highlights.

Sorry if this is a lame question(s)..

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

I think in a full flow filter the bypass opens a passage from the primary filter to a larger particle size filter...so basically before the bypass opens it filters smaller particles...and after it opens it still filters, but with less filtering capacity...

Dunno...should cut one of the suckers open to see how the flow actually goes

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

they want oil to get to the parts

not-filtered oil is still better than not getting enough "not so clean" oil.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Hmmmmmm, 09 filter?

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Good & Real Full Synthetic 20w50, stock filter.

end of story

damn, need to re-stock my stock filter ...

madcows

I don't think the addition of two oil coolers and cooling lines is going to affect the pressure as the oil pump is positive displacement, so at any given RPM, it will flow a certain amount of oil no matter the restrictions - it will just be at the cost of engine HP to attain it (unless the pressure is too high, and something bursts)

Flashwing, I'm somewhat curious about your low oil temps due to you not having part of the inner wheel well cover (I'm missing BOTH of mine damnit).. Since it has an temperature dependent oil-bypass valve, I'm assuming your oil temp doesn't go any lower than the temp it takes to open it. Correct?

Flashwing

I think the lowest I've seen it get is 140 degrees but normally it's about 160 degrees. It all depends on my driving and the weather but anything less than 85 degrees ambient around here my oil is usually below my coolant.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

We have a full flow system so all of the oil passes through the filter to reach the engine. If the filter clogs, an alternative route to the engine must be provided for the oil, or the bearings and other internal parts may fail, due to oil starvation. A relief, or by-pass, valve is used to allow unfiltered oil to lubricate the engine. This better than no oil at all. Heck some engines have this built into the engine but ours is in the filter.
Under normal conditions, the valve remains closed. When there is sufficient contaminant in the oil filter to reach a preset level of pressure DIFFERENTIAL to oil flow (around 10-12 PSI in most passenger cars), pressure differential on the relief (by-pass) valve causes it to open. This condition can occur when the oil filter has become clogged or when the weather is cold and the oil is thick and flows slowly. So I really would not recommend 20w/50 viscosity users to also use the 09 filter.
Hope that helps to explain things a little?
OD

ASH8

If you do not think "Oil Pressure" is an issue with Series 1 ( irregardless of oil Coolers or Lines) then Why did Mazda increase oil pressure by over 50% as a reference value and more than Double the By-Pass Pressures in Series II's.???