Renesis OIL PRESSURE Discussion with Dealer Tech
11-04-2009, 12:02 PM
#501
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11-04-2009, 03:06 PM
#502
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What about the variances you can get between equipment that is monitoring your OP...how accurate are your guages?
I would like to think Mazda Japans testing/measuring/reporting is accurate because of the quality of their machinery and equipment.
I don't know how you are getting 90 PSI when the Rear Valve is not even rated that high you must have done mods?, even Pineapple Racing Video show after crushing down the Valve/Spring they rate it from 68 to 88 psi before max by pass.
http://www.rebuildingrotaryengines.c..._Oil_Regulator
I would like to think Mazda Japans testing/measuring/reporting is accurate because of the quality of their machinery and equipment.
I don't know how you are getting 90 PSI when the Rear Valve is not even rated that high you must have done mods?, even Pineapple Racing Video show after crushing down the Valve/Spring they rate it from 68 to 88 psi before max by pass.
http://www.rebuildingrotaryengines.c..._Oil_Regulator
Last edited by ASH8; 11-04-2009 at 03:11 PM.
11-04-2009, 11:05 PM
#503
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What about the variances you can get between equipment that is monitoring your OP...how accurate are your guages?
I would like to think Mazda Japans testing/measuring/reporting is accurate because of the quality of their machinery and equipment.
I don't know how you are getting 90 PSI when the Rear Valve is not even rated that high you must have done mods?, even Pineapple Racing Video show after crushing down the Valve/Spring they rate it from 68 to 88 psi before max by pass.
http://www.rebuildingrotaryengines.c..._Oil_Regulator
I would like to think Mazda Japans testing/measuring/reporting is accurate because of the quality of their machinery and equipment.
I don't know how you are getting 90 PSI when the Rear Valve is not even rated that high you must have done mods?, even Pineapple Racing Video show after crushing down the Valve/Spring they rate it from 68 to 88 psi before max by pass.
http://www.rebuildingrotaryengines.c..._Oil_Regulator
The only thing I can think of is that air bleeds off easier than oil - especially if their is significant flow. Phillip, what is your take?
11-04-2009, 11:26 PM
#504
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Thread Starter
Even with "Air" running through the standard valve before their mod (crush) the guy said it was 68 PSI which is around the factory specs..
Perhaps Phillip changed the Oil Pump to the larger (wider Oil Pump Rotors?) from the FC and FD RX-7. (N318-14-100A, or Rotor Set N318-14-140)
11-05-2009, 03:01 AM
#505
Ayrton Senna Forever
Even if he did it, actually it don't influence the max pressure, if he did not modify the rear bypass valve (regulator plunger) too.
11-05-2009, 03:11 AM
#506
Ayrton Senna Forever
There is a new thread with a "well above 100km miles runned 5w-20 engine". The owner told that he never revved the engine, so it lasted longer than the average with the thin oil. Maybe there is relationship with the low oil pressure at high rpm and the longevity.
11-05-2009, 06:11 AM
#507
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No, I haven't modified the internal oil system at all yet, just the different oil lines and cooler, like I say, my gauges were only calibrated at the beginning of the season, air will bleed of easier with lots of flow though - oil will keep creeping it's pressure up against the relief spring with more flow.
11-05-2009, 08:20 AM
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No, I haven't modified the internal oil system at all yet, just the different oil lines and cooler, like I say, my gauges were only calibrated at the beginning of the season, air will bleed of easier with lots of flow though - oil will keep creeping it's pressure up against the relief spring with more flow.
Intuitively, one would think that 20psi above the relief pressure is far too high to achieve just from slow bleed-off, but given the info that we do have, would it be impossible?
11-05-2009, 08:41 AM
#509
Since he has only one cooler ---possibily not? The normal set up has 2 90% turns before it reaches the coolers---there could be pressure loss there?
Us regular guys are getting 80 at higher rpms with a new batch of ?/40 wgt oil. SO with a ?/50 wgt and less road to travel in the higher rpms--maybe?
But I would start to wonder about foaming from all the other oil being pumped to the pan through the bypass at that pressure?
But its good to know the pump is capable of delivering.
OD
Us regular guys are getting 80 at higher rpms with a new batch of ?/40 wgt oil. SO with a ?/50 wgt and less road to travel in the higher rpms--maybe?
But I would start to wonder about foaming from all the other oil being pumped to the pan through the bypass at that pressure?
But its good to know the pump is capable of delivering.
OD
11-05-2009, 08:57 AM
#510
Ayrton Senna Forever
Since he has only one cooler ---possibily not? The normal set up has 2 90% turns before it reaches the coolers---there could be pressure loss there?
Us regular guys are getting 80 at higher rpms with a new batch of ?/40 wgt oil. SO with a ?/50 wgt and less road to travel in the higher rpms--maybe?
But I would start to wonder about foaming from all the other oil being pumped to the pan through the bypass at that pressure?
But its good to know the pump is capable of delivering.
OD
Us regular guys are getting 80 at higher rpms with a new batch of ?/40 wgt oil. SO with a ?/50 wgt and less road to travel in the higher rpms--maybe?
But I would start to wonder about foaming from all the other oil being pumped to the pan through the bypass at that pressure?
But its good to know the pump is capable of delivering.
OD
Last edited by ayrton012; 11-05-2009 at 09:49 AM.
11-06-2009, 03:01 AM
#513
Ayrton Senna Forever
Reaching this point in this thread, we can't take another step forward to the solution without real life maximum oil pressure from an S2.
1. We have the S2 reference oil pressure data (not real life) at 3000 rpm, which is 72,5 PSI. Actually it is about the same like our max pressure in the S1. They (S2's)got this higher pressure earlier (lower) in the rpm range, because of their higher pressure oil pump (or faster rpm geared pump).
2. If we may believe for the datas by Mazda, then there is only an emergency front regulator in the S2 (like in the S1), so there is not any other regulator in the oil system ( except the thermo pellet, but now it does not count). If it is true, there has to be much higher oil pressures in the S2 than 72,5 PSI.
3. If the 2. point is not true, and actually there is any pressure regulator in the S2 's system, then there is only a really little chance that Mazda only wanted to get earlier the max pressure (at lower about 2k rpm), and did not want to raise the max. oil pressure in the S2 vs S1.
4. So in this moment I have to say I will take shim under my S1 rear valve regulator spring at my next oil change. But knowing the real life S2's max pressure data would be reassuring, before doing this mod.
1. We have the S2 reference oil pressure data (not real life) at 3000 rpm, which is 72,5 PSI. Actually it is about the same like our max pressure in the S1. They (S2's)got this higher pressure earlier (lower) in the rpm range, because of their higher pressure oil pump (or faster rpm geared pump).
2. If we may believe for the datas by Mazda, then there is only an emergency front regulator in the S2 (like in the S1), so there is not any other regulator in the oil system ( except the thermo pellet, but now it does not count). If it is true, there has to be much higher oil pressures in the S2 than 72,5 PSI.
3. If the 2. point is not true, and actually there is any pressure regulator in the S2 's system, then there is only a really little chance that Mazda only wanted to get earlier the max pressure (at lower about 2k rpm), and did not want to raise the max. oil pressure in the S2 vs S1.
4. So in this moment I have to say I will take shim under my S1 rear valve regulator spring at my next oil change. But knowing the real life S2's max pressure data would be reassuring, before doing this mod.
11-06-2009, 07:51 AM
#514
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Since he has only one cooler ---possibily not? The normal set up has 2 90% turns before it reaches the coolers---there could be pressure loss there?
Us regular guys are getting 80 at higher rpms with a new batch of ?/40 wgt oil. SO with a ?/50 wgt and less road to travel in the higher rpms--maybe?
But I would start to wonder about foaming from all the other oil being pumped to the pan through the bypass at that pressure?
But its good to know the pump is capable of delivering.
OD
Us regular guys are getting 80 at higher rpms with a new batch of ?/40 wgt oil. SO with a ?/50 wgt and less road to travel in the higher rpms--maybe?
But I would start to wonder about foaming from all the other oil being pumped to the pan through the bypass at that pressure?
But its good to know the pump is capable of delivering.
OD
I should have far less restriction through the cooler because my oil lines are a lot wider than the stock ones, and it's a low-loss oil cooler, so perhaps there's some flow gain there that's forcing the regulator open further.
11-06-2009, 08:30 AM
#516
Ayrton Senna Forever
There's the rub, I'm not runnung ?/50w, I'm on 5w/30.
I should have far less restriction through the cooler because my oil lines are a lot wider than the stock ones, and it's a low-loss oil cooler, so perhaps there's some flow gain there that's forcing the regulator open further.
I should have far less restriction through the cooler because my oil lines are a lot wider than the stock ones, and it's a low-loss oil cooler, so perhaps there's some flow gain there that's forcing the regulator open further.
11-06-2009, 08:55 AM
#518
11-06-2009, 11:08 AM
#519
Didnt know you offered! I knew there was something I needed to buy Paul. One other thing---do you have an 09 oil pan? Can we do a test fit?
Regulator and 09 pan may be a "package" for you to offer?
I will be at Roebling Road this w/e with a bunch of other "enthusists". I will call next week. Maybe we can beta test my car for this package?
OD
Regulator and 09 pan may be a "package" for you to offer?
I will be at Roebling Road this w/e with a bunch of other "enthusists". I will call next week. Maybe we can beta test my car for this package?
OD
11-06-2009, 02:33 PM
#520
Didnt know you offered! I knew there was something I needed to buy Paul. One other thing---do you have an 09 oil pan? Can we do a test fit?
Regulator and 09 pan may be a "package" for you to offer?
I will be at Roebling Road this w/e with a bunch of other "enthusists". I will call next week. Maybe we can beta test my car for this package?
OD
Regulator and 09 pan may be a "package" for you to offer?
I will be at Roebling Road this w/e with a bunch of other "enthusists". I will call next week. Maybe we can beta test my car for this package?
OD
I would guess that it won't work especially due to the changed front cover. That being said, I do have an 09 here. When we take it apart many secrets will be revealed.
Paul.
11-06-2009, 03:19 PM
#522
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Reaching this point in this thread, we can't take another step forward to the solution without real life maximum oil pressure from an S2.
1. We have the S2 reference oil pressure data (not real life) at 3000 rpm, which is 72,5 PSI. Actually it is about the same like our max pressure in the S1. They (S2's)got this higher pressure earlier (lower) in the rpm range, because of their higher pressure oil pump (or faster rpm geared pump).
2. If we may believe for the datas by Mazda, then there is only an emergency front regulator in the S2 (like in the S1), so there is not any other regulator in the oil system ( except the thermo pellet, but now it does not count). If it is true, there has to be much higher oil pressures in the S2 than 72,5 PSI.
3. If the 2. point is not true, and actually there is any pressure regulator in the S2 's system, then there is only a really little chance that Mazda only wanted to get earlier the max pressure (at lower about 2k rpm), and did not want to raise the max. oil pressure in the S2 vs S1.
4. So in this moment I have to say I will take shim under my S1 rear valve regulator spring at my next oil change. But knowing the real life S2's max pressure data would be reassuring, before doing this mod.
1. We have the S2 reference oil pressure data (not real life) at 3000 rpm, which is 72,5 PSI. Actually it is about the same like our max pressure in the S1. They (S2's)got this higher pressure earlier (lower) in the rpm range, because of their higher pressure oil pump (or faster rpm geared pump).
2. If we may believe for the datas by Mazda, then there is only an emergency front regulator in the S2 (like in the S1), so there is not any other regulator in the oil system ( except the thermo pellet, but now it does not count). If it is true, there has to be much higher oil pressures in the S2 than 72,5 PSI.
3. If the 2. point is not true, and actually there is any pressure regulator in the S2 's system, then there is only a really little chance that Mazda only wanted to get earlier the max pressure (at lower about 2k rpm), and did not want to raise the max. oil pressure in the S2 vs S1.
4. So in this moment I have to say I will take shim under my S1 rear valve regulator spring at my next oil change. But knowing the real life S2's max pressure data would be reassuring, before doing this mod.
An NO, it is not listed in the WS Manual or anywhere I can find a PSI ref number.
The S2 OIL Pump and Valve is similar but not the same as any rotary before.
And the S2 uses the same Oil Pump drive chain as an S1 and FC RX-7, so the odds of the pump being driven faster are remote.
I suggest you read the 09 Service Highlights..
11-07-2009, 04:10 AM
#523
Ayrton Senna Forever
Gee mate, How many times does one have to REPEAT, the S2 DOES have a Oil pressure regulator...it is called the OCV OIL CONTROL VALVE...
An NO, it is not listed in the WS Manual or anywhere I can find a PSI ref number.
The S2 OIL Pump and Valve is similar but not the same as any rotary before.
And the S2 uses the same Oil Pump drive chain as an S1 and FC RX-7, so the odds of the pump being driven faster are remote.
I suggest you read the 09 Service Highlights..
An NO, it is not listed in the WS Manual or anywhere I can find a PSI ref number.
The S2 OIL Pump and Valve is similar but not the same as any rotary before.
And the S2 uses the same Oil Pump drive chain as an S1 and FC RX-7, so the odds of the pump being driven faster are remote.
I suggest you read the 09 Service Highlights..
Sorry, I missed that the S2 oil pumps has higher capacities (otherwise the 72,5PSI/3000rpm verifies it), but now it is clean.
Apart from this my quoted 1-4. sentences are not false.
But dear Ash, Mazda write the next in the Service Bulletin, as you attached too:
• The amount of oil supplied to the metering oil pump is adjusted based on the engine operation conditions to keep the oil pressure inside the metering oil pump constant.
• Based on the input signals from the oil pressure sensor, the PCM drives the OCV and switches the oil passages of the metering oil pump so that the oil pressure inside the metering oil pump is kept constant.
...pressure inside the metering oil pump is kept constant...
Do we know, how much has it an effect on the pressure, and the max pressure?
NO!
Yes, it is sure that the OCV regulates the max pressure, and it can't be close to 156 PSI, but how much? We need real life data!
The reference 72,5 PSI at 3000 rpm is a very important data too, but it came from Mazda, so there are doubt.
From S2 Bulletin:
• When measuring the oil pressure, remove the blind plug from the oil pressure measurement hole on the rear left surface of the engine.
Picture attached.
Last edited by ayrton012; 11-07-2009 at 04:13 AM.
11-07-2009, 02:27 PM
#524
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Yes I'm reading it, and your answers too, frequently.
Sorry, I missed that the S2 oil pumps has higher capacities (otherwise the 72,5PSI/3000rpm verifies it), but now it is clean.
Apart from this my quoted 1-4. sentences are not false.
But dear Ash, Mazda write the next in the Service Bulletin, as you attached too:
• The amount of oil supplied to the metering oil pump is adjusted based on the engine operation conditions to keep the oil pressure inside the metering oil pump constant.
• Based on the input signals from the oil pressure sensor, the PCM drives the OCV and switches the oil passages of the metering oil pump so that the oil pressure inside the metering oil pump is kept constant.
...
Do we know, how much has it an effect on the pressure, and the max pressure?
NO!
Yes, it is sure that the OCV regulates the max pressure, and it can't be close to 156 PSI, but how much? We need real life data!
The reference 72,5 PSI at 3000 rpm is a very important data too, but it came from Mazda, so there are doubt.
From S2 Bulletin:
• When measuring the oil pressure, remove the blind plug from the oil pressure measurement hole on the rear left surface of the engine.
Picture attached.
Sorry, I missed that the S2 oil pumps has higher capacities (otherwise the 72,5PSI/3000rpm verifies it), but now it is clean.
Apart from this my quoted 1-4. sentences are not false.
But dear Ash, Mazda write the next in the Service Bulletin, as you attached too:
• The amount of oil supplied to the metering oil pump is adjusted based on the engine operation conditions to keep the oil pressure inside the metering oil pump constant.
• Based on the input signals from the oil pressure sensor, the PCM drives the OCV and switches the oil passages of the metering oil pump so that the oil pressure inside the metering oil pump is kept constant.
...
Do we know, how much has it an effect on the pressure, and the max pressure?
NO!
Yes, it is sure that the OCV regulates the max pressure, and it can't be close to 156 PSI, but how much? We need real life data!
The reference 72,5 PSI at 3000 rpm is a very important data too, but it came from Mazda, so there are doubt.
From S2 Bulletin:
• When measuring the oil pressure, remove the blind plug from the oil pressure measurement hole on the rear left surface of the engine.
Picture attached.
Anyway yes, the EMOP does not PUMP, they allow oil through to the Nozzles via two solenoid chambers, the OIL PUMP does the 'pressure' pumping....part of the reason for an increased OP in S2.
Yes, I also posted <<<< back the Grub Screw or Blind Plug where you could monitor OP from.....same area as the S1.
ALL THIS HAS BEEN POSTED MANY TIMES BEFORE...
11-07-2009, 03:01 PM
#525
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Sorry, was not this thread but the one "does anyone have 09 Oil pressure info"
