nycgps

iTrader: (1)

because they love their warranty ?

or they dunno how ?

remember most 09+ Rx-8 owners are dumb n00bs (except for u Ash )

for realz dude, most of them are.

Think of it, how many 09+ rx-8 were actually made? and how many S2 owners post "OMG WHAT OIL SHOULD I USE"

madcows

damnit.... I repeated myself... It's like a live in an alternate reality where I don't realize I already said what I've been thinking.

madcows

The new position of the OP switch may have also been implemented by mazda to determine not only if there is a lack of oil pressure all together, but also as a mechanism to determine if there's a problem with the OCV. What do you think?

Also, just because the pressure through the OCV/EMOP might be substantial, it doesn't necessarily mean that the volume is. I think an OP reading in conjunction with whatever testing methods mazda employs for testing the OCV will give us the answer.

From the images, it looks like the OCV is mechanical. Do we know this for fact?

ASH8

Yes, funny you should say that, my dealer tech said that the new Oil pump and higher pressure was to supply the engine by about 30% more and the other 70% was for the two EMOP (which are not PUMPING devices, but a magnetic solenoid in a chamber that opens and closes metal plungers to let the oil into tubes then into the Nozzles under the Oil Pressure from the engines Oil Pump Via the OCV...or were the % the other way around...lol...does not matter, I can't remember everything!..

But when I said this, some here scoffed at my dealer techs instruction.

ASH8

You think you keep repeating yourself...GOD I Know I do...

The OCV is both electrical and mechanical...

The PCM (ECU) send a signal (electrical) to the OCV, which again is similar to the EMOP's in the use of a magnetic solenoid which lifts the Spool Valve Up or Down, which in turn opens or closes Oil Supply Circuit to the EMOP's, so it is basically what the PCM says to the EMOP's and or OCV determines where the Oil goes, either to the "pumps" or returned from emo pumps for cleaning/flushing and or by passing back into Oil Pan.

IMO it is really a clever little device and relatively simple.

I think another benefit from the new Oil system is the fact ALL oil goes through the Oil Filter before it reaches the engine or the EMOP's.

Previously in earlier rotaries only some of the oil would be filtered and the rest before the filter would be by passed back into Oil pan to start the journey again...so to speak..

I think it works like this, if the PCM (ECU) turns on the OCV, but turns OFF the EMOP's the OIL is continually flushed out and back from the EMOP to the OIL Pan.
Which is also called "Cleaning Mode"., and the position of the Spool Valve inside the OCV also controls which passages the oil goes into.

If both are turned on the Oil goes into Rotor Housing for Lubrication.

IMO the set up is a little wonder, very clever and much needed when compared to Mazda's other MOP systems which have not evolved much in the past 25 years.

madcows

You must have posted the info in another thread that I was not aware of.. I swear!

The OCV seems unnecessarily complicated unless I'm really missing the purpose. If it's primary job is just to ensure proper pressure to the emops, I would think that a simple pressure regulator would suffice. The only thing I could think of is that it is used to dynamically regulate the overall system pressure.

As for utilizing an emop, I think it will show to be a lot more reliable than the old design. I can't believe they didn't just do it in the first place. Now *that* was unnecessarily complicated. Having read a bit about the old mop on this forum, I could hardly visualize any of it's operation.

ASH8

Really??, do you think it is complicated..interesting...I was think how ingenious it is because of the functions it does...as I see it..

It is really only a small device.

IMO it has 3 jobs, and remember the Oil Pressure is monitored by the PCM (ECU) at the Oil Pressure Sensor on one EMOP, this is the ONLY Oil Pressure Switch in S2's.

You can see in the diagram how the filtered engine oil from Oil Pump (Red) is "directed/diverted" by the OCV Spool Valve to the EMOP's, this occurs all the time (when OCV is OFF or has NO voltage supply the Magnetic Coil), as it says there is a CONSTANT Oil Pressure Supply Inside the EMOP's.

The Spring at the bottom of the Spool Valve pushed the SV UP when there is No Voltage from the PCM..this is the Default Position.

When Voltage IS Supplied/Applied to the OCV Magnetic Coil the SV moves DOWN which returns Oil (Green) from the EMOP's and also back to the Oil (Sump) Pan.
This power ON function is also the "Cleaning Mode", so it is cleaning out all the Oil supply lines with fresh oil.

IMO the Spool Valve in Default OFF position (UP) is also the pressure regulator/controller.

Yes, I think it is a clever little device, about the size of a "D" battery.

madcows

Ok... it makes sense to me *if* there are multiple and separate stages of the spool valve. In that case, it is quite elegant.

The size of a D battery you say? That's a lot smaller than I imagined.

Also, do you know for certain that the pressure sensor in the emop is just a switch? I would imagine the system flush mode would be activated when the sensor reads low pressure.


P.S.
I want a series 2 RX-8 now >

ASH8

*if*, ?? I don't know why you say IF, can't you see by the factory design of the Spool Valve with a series of machined indents or "spools" that allow OIL Supply and Oil Return, to and from the EMOP's?, this spool moves up and down Vertically by the a 12V charged Solenoid and the return pushed up by a "spring" at the bottom, shown in the other pic, when the solenoid is not active.

I just went and had a look at mine (needed a torch), it sits right under the bank of 4 Ignition Coils and is actually more like the size of a "C" battery, just 35% longer, IMO this is the electrics or solenoid part as the outside of the unit is a clean silver metallic 'battery', I imagine some of the spool may go into the front allow timing cover housing it is fitted into.

You can only see about one third of the round battery looking OCV....but yeah, it is an "elegant" little unit..

Oil Pressure Sensor/Sender (or switch)....

All previous rotaries had their Oil Pressure Switch mounted just under the alloy Oil Filter Housing, the pressure switch would signal a red dash light IF your Oil Pressure was low.

The S2 does not have this switch in this location any longer.

The ONLY Oil Pressure Sensor or Switch is now mounted directly onto EMOP Number 1 (see parts diagram I posted), it is slightly larger but it's function is still the same. It is telling both the PCM (ECU) and the driver by the means of the same red dash light that your Oil Pressure is not up to specification/low or you could have a bad leak in one of the Supply lines to either of the two EMOP's as they are both connected in series with a small Oil Supply line. So either way if one of the EMOP's develops a leak or your oil pump fails you will get a warning lamp.

Really another "clever" idea as it is doing two jobs, monitoring engine oil pressure and also the oil pressure INSIDE the EMOP's at the same time.

Frankly, I really don't think the OP Sensor/Switch has anything to do with the Flush Mode, to say it does then what is monitoring Engine Oil Pressure?
I can assure you I have been through the Mazda Parts Catalog many times for the S1 and S2 like a book and there are no other Oil Pressure Switches or Sensors.

I image the Flush or Cleaning mode is either basically ongoing (all the time the EMOP's are not supplying oil for the Apex Seals), or the Cleaning/Flushing is done on a Cycle Mode of say after so many engine starts, or RPM/Load (I doubt it) but again it is somehow ECU controlled.

I wish I knew more technical information on the EMOP's and their cycles as it is very interesting, and IMO the greatest advance Mazda has made in the lubrication of the engines Apex Seals and Corner Seals ever, and PLEASE I am not saying this because I own an S2, I am saying this because I really enjoy Mazda's technical advances with the Rotary Engine..being an old Mazda Parts man...

madcows

D'oh! What I meant was whether or not the unit has multiple stages or steps, or is it simply on/off (as a solenoid, and not a stepper motor design, my guess would be on/off). If it's on/off, then I'm still confused

Us 'muricans call it a 'flash light', even though it doesn't flash. We would be weary of taking a 'torch' to our engine bay



That's what I was thinking, but it's actually pulling many duties. It's able to detect an oiling issue pretty much throughout the whole chain. From pump, to OCV, to MOP, though it couldn't exactly pinpoint the problem - but hey, at least you would know there's a problem, unlike the S1 where the MOP might not be working at all, and you would never know except for the fact that you wouldn't ever need to add oil.

Well, since the sensor (according to the S2 highlights) connects to the PCM, the data can be used for various reasons. So while it might be used to set off some dash lights if the pressure is too low, it might be able to perform the "flush" (whatever it is) if it detects what looks to be lower than expected pressure from the OCV/EMOP system. It may attempt to flush the system in order to reestablish proper pressure. I dunno what other reason it would be for.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

Why oh Why didnt mazda do all this good stuff before 09? Dang.
monitoring the engine oil pressure from the omp is prefect and lodgical, self cleaning is perfect and lodgical, increased pressure ditto, +better trans, diff brace, fuel pump, cooling,
I feel like a beta tester with an 04 that was built in jul /03
OD

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

You do realize how much technology they released in early 03 for Renesis? I'm not afraid to buy an 04 since I know what to do with it.

There's always movement in the world (For better or for worse). Often enhancements come along with time. They (Mazda) don't mind the thought of you upgrading to their next product either .

Paul.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

What would you do if you got an 04' with freshly rebuilt motor?

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

I'd actually prefer one with a popped motor so we could build it although I'm not opposed to Mazda's latest remans. I'd build it with Iannetti Ceramic apex seals. I'd install a Sohn adapter for separate oil supply to the metering system.I would modify oil related items. I'd run the RE-medy water pump and thermostat from a company called Mazmart. I'd give it a diet of *W40 from the beginning. I'd use the Ron Davis radiator and run all new hoses belts etc. I'd use the Cobb AP from Mazda Maniac in order to optimize A/F ratios and oil metering etc. I would drive the snott out of it with 8500 rpms every day.

I'm sure I could think of twice as many things.

Paul.

mazdaverx7

iTrader: (6)

i posted this on another thread but i'll throw some fuel to this fire here as well. i've run the reccomended 20W50 in all of my RX-7's for year and thousands of miles without a problem. Mazda switching to a thinner weight has me concerned. i currently use 5W30 in the RX-8 and have had no issues thus far..this isnt to say say that as the miles pile up, the engine will not wear..the wear is inevitable. for example, take these pics into consideration:

front stationary gear:



rear stationary gear:



this is on an 85 model year 12A. the mileage was 142K and 20W50 was the reccomended oil to be used. 10W40 in the colder months (below 32 degrees F)

this engine had a small engine mounted water to oil oil cooler. very inefficient. it was carbureted and with the choke pulled for cold start, revs were around 3K or better for extended periods. the oil was injected using a mechanical oil metering pump and was pumped into teh carb and trickled into the engine. these early engines lasted a LONG time with that setup. now we have oil injectors used to spray oil onto the rotors, tighter tolerences (hence the 5W20) and we think the rotary has gotten better with age.. it has in terms of power, efficiency, and smoothness but reliability is marginal. where did Mazda go wrong?

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Good to know, as of now my coolant temps are okay, even on hard hot days but I will be replacing the hoses soon. I am running the SOHN already, premixing the fuel, and I will be installing the single large Fluidyne oil cooler as soon as my hoses are here.

I will be looking at a Radiator before summer swings back around and I really get serious on the track. I do need to get that Thermostat though.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

So Paul---looks like I could beshortly your beta tester for a Paul engine(sans ceramic seals) ?
temps-controlled
diesel oil from the get go
filter mag
pre mix Godfather (meh)
w/m injection--does help clean
will be doing the oil bypass mod soon
tune and oil injection is to your specs
Mazmart water pump
uh oh---no i cant--my redline is no higher than 7.5-8K now
Shucks---oh well. I will try anyway.
OD

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Oil bypass mod?

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

There are definitely some things that were better back then but the requirements have mutiplied tenfold with rules, regulations and standards from various governmental agencies being applied. The big downfall of 83 to 85 12As was the afforementioned oil cooler/ heat exchanger (water to oil) that caused a large prtion of those engines to require rebuilding due to oil leakage from the rotor housing dowells (Upper). A great mod for these is to go back to a front mounted oil cooler.

The average lifespan of Renesis is still to be accessed but I'd suggest it may not be more than 100k. The 12As saw 130k plus all the time. I've heard of them passing 300k but running close to 200k was not too togh. I would guess the average to be in excess of 140k. The 86-88 averaged similar. I would see a lot with 180k. The 89-91s would fail at 70-120k due to apex seal and spring wear. Renesis may be similar with carbon as a bonus killer.

Paul.

longpath

iTrader: (1)

I think he is referring to modifying the rear regulator to increase peak pressure, combined with shimming the front regulator. Apologies, OD, if I got it wrong.

I'm looking at doing the same thing, along with possibly going to single oil coiler mounted up higher than the OE pair so that oil will self-drain from the cooler during oil changes without having to tilt the car (alternatively, I'm exploring whether some kind of tap can be installed between the coolers and the lines but time is tight with a toddler at home).

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

One of the things I have noticed between the FA-FC and the FD and Renesis is the problems they have in cooling and the resultant life of the engines.

Seems to me that both the FD especially..and the Renesis to a lesser extent have cooling problems that the older engines didn't and shorter life expectancies.

Mazda......I had hope that you had dealt better with than in the RX-8

PhillipM

Too busy trying to make the car look prettier than help the engineers keep the engine cool...

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Or being too cheap to beef up the hardware...

Bean counters suck

madcows

I feel your pain... I like everything they've done to the 8 except for the looks (interior and exterior).

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Follow my "single oil cooler" thread. I will be finishing it up soon.