ayrton012

Maybe the bearing wear did not get to their mind. But anyway there are always about 50% higher flow at the bearings in the S2.

Maybe there are not any engine in the world which has only 72-73 PSI oil pressure at 9000 rpm.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

I wouldnt think the load on the pump would be an issue as previous rotaries have ran this level of pressure without problems.
I didnt do this to analyze which bypass caused what. Its been a long standing accepted fact from the rotary community that if one bypass is modded the other should be also. I just wanted more flow. I feel that has been done with this "kit".

Flash I understand what your are saying man--it has to be apples to apples---but did I miss the part where we were talking about race engines? Is that Phillips set up you are talking about?

I think the important thing here is: BYPASS MODS WORK FOR THE RENASIS ENGINE.
This increased flow plus using the correct viscosity oil should go a long way it addressing some of the lubrication issues we have been speaking of?
olddragger

ayrton012

OD, I'm very happy that your mod verified that our pump has enough capacity for higher pressure and flow. I just wanted to say that if you make two modifications in a same time, you won't know which one reducated (to 72-74 PSI) the pressure before.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

true that.
Is there ever an occassion that you would modify only one bypass?
Is it important to narrow this down to which bypass causes this or is it both causing a little etc? Innocent question--not trying to flame anyone.
OD

ASH8

No, I like many thought you had an RX-8...clearly you don't, but run an off road'er with a Renesis.....Up until your pic you were fooling me..

madcows

I've read all your posts in this thread, and I've studied that portion of the service highlights, too.

To say that the pressure increase was partially for the purpose of supplying oil to the EMOP is erroneous, as there is no mention of the kind of pressure that's being supplied to the EMOP. And as I've pointed out before, the oil being fed through the injectors is not done so under the pressure of the oiling system, but rather from solenoids forcing a fixed volume of oil through check valves which eventually make their ways to the injectors.

Also, since simply modifying the bypass valves increased the pressure even at lower RPM, makes it look like there was plenty of available capacity left in the pump..

madcows

I was actually worried about that. Maybe bearing wear still hasn't been addressed in the S2. Only time will tell.

I will stick with Paul's suggestion for the use of higher-visc oils for protection.

PhillipM

That's because I've been deliberately trying to limit my data only to stuff that was relevant to road/light track use.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

I knew he didn't have an 8 I seem to remember pics somewhere of it going over a jump.

PhillipM

I think they're in the general rx-8 section, somewhere.

ASH8

In regard to Series II, I disagree..it is Not erroneous..my word was 'Partially'.

The EMOP's solenoids do not do the "Cleaning Mode" of the EMOP's this is controlled by the OCV (Oil Control Valve before the EMOP's) with OIL Pressure from the OIL Pump...the OCV is not a Pump but a spool valve (the exact same OCV is also used in the 02 and 05 Mazda 2 and 03, 06 Mazda 3).

Indeed the ONLY engine Oil Pressure Solenoid to monitor Engine Oil Pressure is located on one of the EMOP's(#1), it's location has a dual purpose by monitoring engine OP and that at the EMOP's.

Discharge amount— The discharge amount is the oil amount injected from the centre oil nozzle and side oil nozzles when metering oil pump No.1 or No.2 operates once.
— The discharge amount is corrected according to battery positive voltage, the metering oil pump internal pressure, and engine coolant temperature.

Did you miss this from SH..

�� Based on the input signals from the oil pressure sensor, the PCM drives the OCV and switches the oil passages of the metering oil pump so that the oil pressure inside the metering oil pump is kept constant.

As I said the OCV is not a Pump, how is the "OIL inside the Metering Oil Pump is kept constant"???

Since I own a Series II and hear everyday the Solenoids go off inside the two EMOP's at engine OFF, an Audible Noise is heard as the Plungers discharge the Oil under pressure to the Nozzles.

OIL PRESSURE CONTROL OPERATION [13B-MSP]
Operation
�� The PCM divides the oil control valve drive range into four modes according to the engine operation conditions and controls the target current for each control zone.
Engine start mode
�� This mode opens the passage between the OCV and metering oil pump to feed oil into the metering oil pump at an early stage. After oil-feed into the metering oil pump is detected based on the input signals from the oil pressure sensor, the mode changes to the feedback mode. (so "what" FEEDS the EMOP's Engine OIL? the OIL PUMP)
Feedback mode
�� The PCM controls the OCV target current so that the actual oil pressure in the metering oil pump is close to the target value determined according to the engine operation conditions.
Cleaning mode
�� If any of the following conditions are met, this mode is executed to remove foreign material in the OCV oil passages:
— Engine start mode is completed.
— The oil pressure input from the oil pressure sensor remains at a certain value or more after a specified time has elapsed since the engine was started.
Operation
�� The OCV alternately controls the target current between low and high levels at certain intervals. After repeating this operation several times, foreign material that has penetrated the OCV is removed and the cleaning mode is completed.
— The oil pressure input from the oil pressure sensor remains at a certain value or less after a specified time has elapsed since the engine was started.
Operation
�� Because there may be an oil leakage concern from the pipes, the passage between the OCV and metering oil pump is closed so that oil-feed into the metering oil pump stops.
Periodic cleaning mode
�� This mode performs at specified time intervals to remove foreign material in the OCV oil passages. (except during high engine speed, high engine load)
Operation
�� The OCV controls the target current on the lower side for a specified period of time. After executing this operation one time, foreign material penetrating the OCV is removed and the periodic cleaning mode is completed.

All engine Oil Supplied under pressure from the Oil Pump to and inside the spool valves and to and inside the EMOP Chambers.

Series 1 RX-8, if you believe there is enough capacity when the Oil By Pass and Relief valves are shimmed, you can do so.

However, if the FC oil pump used in the S1 RX-8 was appropriate, why did Mazda upgrade the Oil Pump Rotors to a Larger Displacement, the two rotors are widened by 5 mm each?(same pump for FC and FD Turbo), yes there is an additional supply of oil to the Turbo, but why not just upgrade the Relief Valve and Rear By Pass Valve?..

It could also be said, why did Mazda not do this on Series II RX-8s?, since the Rear By Pass Valve has been deleted.

Frankly, unless someone actually talks to one of Mazda Japan's Rotary engineers all of us are just speculating, the information is just not out there even in Mazda Dealer LAND (have tried)...they know no more than what has been presented here..in the way of factory Manuals.

Apart from the extra oiling devices added onto the S2 RX-8, all I see is Mazda returning their Rotary Engines back to Oil Pressure levels seen in earlier rotaries before the RENESIS...until someone (S2 Owner) actually installs a good quality Oil Pressure Guage..we will continue to guess...that is how I see it...perhaps the S2 has slightly higher OP levels than normal (I am thinking at lower RPM levels), however I think (memory) the FD OP is around the 90-100 PSI @ 3000 RPM, where the S2 is 72.5 PSI.

ASH8

You can clearly see the OCV and the "From OIL PUMP" Supply...

The Spool Valve Solenoid ( on top) moves the internal SV Shaft up or down which directs Oil Flow to and from the EMOP's under OIL Pressure (from the OIL PUMP)...this High Pressure Oil from the OIL Pump goes Directly into the EMOP's, and the Pressure of the Oil INSIDE the EMOP's is Monitored by the ONLY Oil Pressure Sensor/Switch...which is also the Engines Oil Pressure Switch/Sensor (N3R1-18-541).

I hope to have a few parts in my hand by Christmas, and I will post up some pics.
I got an Oil Control Valve, Temp and Oil Pressure Sensors, a crank and Knock sensor...and later two EMOP's...

ASH8

One other point that must be reiterated....

See Edit..of PSI numbers on Oil Pressure "that is being supplied to the EMOP's" to quote you...what do you think the pressure would be as it comes direct from the OIL Pump via the OCV gateway?..

Take into account as I said before the ONLY area where Engine Oil Pressure is monitored by the PCM is at the number 1 EMOP....with N3R1-18-541, not where the S1 has it's Oil Pressure Sensor/Switch under the Oil Filter (like all other rotaries).

One would think the Oil Pressure supply in that area would not be at the lower end of the scale...but yes it would be good to know for sure...

What we do know is the OP in an S2 is 72.5 PSI @ 3000 RPM at the Engines Rear Oil Intake (like the S1 Oil Filter area)

I will see how complicated this new Oil Pressure Sensor/Switch is when I receive it.

Edit..
Found This..on Oil Pressure Sensor..

�� Installed the metering oil pump No.1.
�� When pressure is applied to the piezoelectric
element in the sensor, an electric potential
difference occurs.
�� Output voltage increases as the oil pressure
increases.

So it looks like it ia a variable Sensor with variable Voltage Output.....Higher the Voltage = Higher the Oil Pressure...Lower Volt = Lower Pressure.

Found info from 09 Workshop Manual..on Oil Pressure Sensor Inspection..
Output Voltage..
0.55 - 1.03V ( Oil Pressure 7.3 - 21.7 PSI)

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

An item of note from my end (I'm not sure if it has been mentioned): The rotors of the S2 oil pump are the same diameter as S1 and older non turbo rotaries.

Paul.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

Why did you mention that Paul?
OD

ASH8

No it has not Paul, because up until now no one here has this info..and it is very interesting, that being the case, the Displacement is identical to the FC and S1 RX-8 then....drive chain is the same as S1 and FC. (same part numbers)

Could it be with just the removal of the Rear By Pass Valve and a different "relief valve" in S2 Oil Pump (twin spring etc), has been the "upgrade" in Oil Pressure , or "returning" oil pressure back to where it should be??

Great Find Paul...

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Seems to me that the spool valve is basically an electronically controlled bypass valve.....it controls the OP to the MOP...and to the whole engine by opening and closing as needed...Kinda like a boost controller.

Not sure why they would go to that from a mechanical bypass though...more complex...and much more likely to have a problem. It does give them the ability to jack with the oil pressure with a flash though.....

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

There is additional observation i have made since i have installed the mazmart kit.
not only do i have the increased oil pressures( it pegs at 110psi by 5K now--i have no idea of max pressures)

BUT I AM ALSO PULLING MORE VACUUM.

Yep i said it ----and I know i will get flamed and laughed at but my vacuum gauge doesnt lie. It doesnt care.

To clarify--at idle (1100K for me) its the same as before the install between 19-20inches. But at 2K and no load-- its changes. It goes to 21-22. Straight up guys.
Before the mod it was the same as idle.
Now i have a boost/vacuum gauge and I observe things all the time with my car. I watch the vacuum/ boost every time i drive it. When I check the vacuum i always verify my idle reading with a no load at 2K reading. I do this because if there is a difference between idle and 2K vacuum this usually indicates a leak somewhere. Now believe me--i tripled checked every line and there is no leaks. I swear no leaks are present.
Now some may say the apex seals seal better with increased rpm and thats true. But my idle is at 1100rpm and really its only a 900rpm difference between the two measurements.
It was basically the same weather and temps between 3 days of observation of this difference. So weather /temps are not that different
i dont know how to explain this--but i know my car well and the vacuum has changed.
Flame suit on!

Their are also some other observations pended. Others are thinking these through before i post about them.

olddragger

longpath

iTrader: (1)

OD, would the relatively small difference in oil pressure indicate an increase in pressure and flow into the MOP? If so, could that translate to better effective compression at that point in the RPM band?

I don't know if you're running a Sohn adapter or not; but if you are, then you can toss this hypothesis in the dust bin.

ASH8

Paul...Just something that needs clarification..

You said the S2 Oil Pump Rotors are "the same diameter" as the S1..thanks, But are they the same width or thickness???..

I jumped the gun and said the displacement was therefore the same as S1, but did not realise you had not commented at the width of the two Rotor sets..

ASH8

Hey Dan,
I guess, I see it as two reasons...

1. Mazda has already used this OCV in the 02 and 05 Mazda2 and 03, 06 Mazda3. So a cheaper development cost...parts already in supply chain, and I guess they have monitored it's reliability.

2. This set up gives them the ability to have 4 separate modes or functions, by- pass, oil supply to EMOP's, oil cleaning of OCV and EMOP's.

INTERESTINGLY
Just found this out...

A Return OIL Pipe from the EMOP's actually finds it's way from the #1 EMOP to the OIL FILLER PIPE!, so Engine Oil can be returned from the EMOP's to the OCV when in Cleaning Mode, and or returned from EMOP to Oil Filler Pipe during normal engine operation...so I guess this could be the By-Pass Mode and Oil direction.?

Just Checked My Car...
And YES, you can see the return Oil Pipe from #1 EMOP to the Oil Filler Pipe, it is about 3 inches below the (Ford) Oil Filler Cap.

ASH8

Denny,

Just found out some more Info on the S2 EMOP and Oil Return set up (see last post above)..

BUT...more Importantly On the S2 OIL Pressures, sorry, I do not know why I had not seen this before in 09 Service Highlights...

You know how we know the Operational (212F or 100C) Oil Pressure @ 3000 RPM is 72.5 PSI..
well I have one more for you...Yeah only one...

@1500 RPM (212F) is 40.6 PSI...!!

And Relief Valve (Oil Pump) is 156.6 PSI

Edit: These are USA Spec's and I assume with 5W20 Engine Oil?

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

wow .
things are starting to make sense.
Stay tuned guys i believe there is more news coming.
OD

madcows

"To say that the pressure increase was partially for the purpose of supplying oil to the EMOP is erroneous.."

I actually have no idea why I said that, and was an error on my part. The possibility is certainly there, what I should have said is "To say that the pressure increase was SOLELY for the purpose of supplying oil to the emop..blah blah"

"Found info from 09 Workshop Manual..on Oil Pressure Sensor Inspection..
Output Voltage..
0.55 - 1.03V ( Oil Pressure 7.3 - 21.7 PSI)"

Is that it's entire range? This could be further proof that the emop does not need a substantial amount of pressure, although it could also mean that it can substantially drop the system pressure.

I wonder what other manufacturers are using an electronically-controlled oil pressure regulator.

Paul, can you indeed clarify whether the pump rotor is dimensionally the same between the S1 & S2? Also, do you believe the only reason the turbo motors had a larger displacement pump was for the turbo itself?

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

I'm not sure why I said diameter. I actually meant thickness. This is what Professor Engman told me but I did not see for myself. He does not enjoy this discovery game as much as we do (Or won't admit it anyhow). I think he was meaning the same in every dimension but I would like to verify this and get back to you, madcows and everyone else.

Paul.