Renesis OIL PRESSURE Discussion with Dealer Tech
10-05-2009, 05:34 PM
#178
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Yes, it will, it actually generates more engine heat (more oil flow in a bearing = more heat generated), but the extra flow carries that heat away faster.
10-05-2009, 05:38 PM
#179
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I'd imagine the dry lubricants contained within the additives are doing the lions share of lubrication on the apex seals.
10-05-2009, 07:46 PM
#182
listen to all of this--and wonder why i like diesel oil. Superior base stock--better film strength, increased additives and far superior particle suspension ability.
Fits the bill dudes--listen to us old men.
Once again get your coolant under control and your oil temps will follow. Stay away from 8K-9K range--that 1K of rpm puts more strain on multiple things that most realize.
Getting off topic here--sorry
OD
Fits the bill dudes--listen to us old men.
Once again get your coolant under control and your oil temps will follow. Stay away from 8K-9K range--that 1K of rpm puts more strain on multiple things that most realize.
Getting off topic here--sorry
OD
10-05-2009, 08:14 PM
#184
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10-06-2009, 01:55 AM
#185
Ayrton Senna Forever
- So same oil pressure, and same oil bypass valve's opening press., but way more heat, than earlier rotaries. (and same e-shaft pellet)
They raised the rpm, but you can't raise the pressure (flow) at the higher rpms, because of the by-pass valve's low pressure opening (too early in the rpm range).
Answer:
In the S2 Renesis Mazda raised the bypass valve's opening press (and new pump), which means higher flow.
- Otherwise I think the other problem is that the pellet is causing getting the oil later to the bearings after start under 140F e-shaft's temp. Maybe it is a long time effect, but it is there.
I think I will kill my e-shaft pellet. What material (metal) is used to fill the hollow of the pellet?
-I remain at 0w, which increase the speed of the oil at cold start, but maybe I will change from 0w-30 to 0w-40 for the hot side.
10-06-2009, 08:54 AM
#186
deisel oil IS used in gasoline engines. On most deisel oil cannisters there is even a message saying "OK to use in gasoline engines"
I use Valvoline Blue 15/40W Deisel oil. Easily available at autopart stores.
Search oil sample analysis for some I have posted in other threads.
Mr Rick E and Paul also give it their "OK"
I use Valvoline Blue 15/40W Deisel oil. Easily available at autopart stores.
Search oil sample analysis for some I have posted in other threads.
Mr Rick E and Paul also give it their "OK"
10-06-2009, 08:58 AM
#187
One more very important info.
- So same oil pressure, and same oil bypass valve's opening press., but way more heat, than earlier rotaries. (and same e-shaft pellet)
They raised the rpm, but you can't raise the pressure (flow) at the higher rpms, because of the by-pass valve's low pressure opening (too early in the rpm range).
Answer:
In the S2 Renesis Mazda raised the bypass valve's opening press (and new pump), which means higher flow.
- Otherwise I think the other problem is that the pellet is causing getting the oil later to the bearings after start under 140F e-shaft's temp. Maybe it is a long time effect, but it is there.
I think I will kill my e-shaft pellet. What material (metal) is used to fill the hollow of the pellet?
-I remain at 0w, which increase the speed of the oil at cold start, but maybe I will change from 0w-30 to 0w-40 for the hot side.
- So same oil pressure, and same oil bypass valve's opening press., but way more heat, than earlier rotaries. (and same e-shaft pellet)
They raised the rpm, but you can't raise the pressure (flow) at the higher rpms, because of the by-pass valve's low pressure opening (too early in the rpm range).
Answer:
In the S2 Renesis Mazda raised the bypass valve's opening press (and new pump), which means higher flow.
- Otherwise I think the other problem is that the pellet is causing getting the oil later to the bearings after start under 140F e-shaft's temp. Maybe it is a long time effect, but it is there.
I think I will kill my e-shaft pellet. What material (metal) is used to fill the hollow of the pellet?
-I remain at 0w, which increase the speed of the oil at cold start, but maybe I will change from 0w-30 to 0w-40 for the hot side.
Also lets not forget, 13B-EGI has technology thats 20 years older than what we have now(Even the very same part has received material update/process update)
my conclusion is, even w30 is not enough. and forget about w20 oil.
10-06-2009, 09:52 AM
#188
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deisel oil IS used in gasoline engines. On most deisel oil cannisters there is even a message saying "OK to use in gasoline engines"
I use Valvoline Blue 15/40W Deisel oil. Easily available at autopart stores.
Search oil sample analysis for some I have posted in other threads.
Mr Rick E and Paul also give it their "OK"
I use Valvoline Blue 15/40W Deisel oil. Easily available at autopart stores.
Search oil sample analysis for some I have posted in other threads.
Mr Rick E and Paul also give it their "OK"
As olddragger says, diesel oil is fine to use, over here our petrol and diesel oils are pretty much the same thing bar the benefit of slightly more detergents in the diesel specific stuff, as most of our oils are multiuse, so it's not so much of a concern for UK/EU users though.
10-06-2009, 12:57 PM
#189
you know what is going to be interesting? Since the series 2 engine is running so much more pressure with a 5/20W oil, what is going to happen if they show up with this type of bearing wear and a higher viscosity of oil is needed? Will the seals etc hold?
This is worth watching for?
OD
This is worth watching for?
OD
10-06-2009, 01:17 PM
#190
you know what is going to be interesting? Since the series 2 engine is running so much more pressure with a 5/20W oil, what is going to happen if they show up with this type of bearing wear and a higher viscosity of oil is needed? Will the seals etc hold?
This is worth watching for?
OD
This is worth watching for?
OD
10-06-2009, 02:53 PM
#191
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deisel oil IS used in gasoline engines. On most deisel oil cannisters there is even a message saying "OK to use in gasoline engines"
I use Valvoline Blue 15/40W Deisel oil. Easily available at autopart stores.
Search oil sample analysis for some I have posted in other threads.
Mr Rick E and Paul also give it their "OK"
I use Valvoline Blue 15/40W Deisel oil. Easily available at autopart stores.
Search oil sample analysis for some I have posted in other threads.
Mr Rick E and Paul also give it their "OK"
10-06-2009, 02:56 PM
#192
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you know what is going to be interesting? Since the series 2 engine is running so much more pressure with a 5/20W oil, what is going to happen if they show up with this type of bearing wear and a higher viscosity of oil is needed? Will the seals etc hold?
This is worth watching for?
OD
This is worth watching for?
OD
10-07-2009, 01:24 AM
#193
Ayrton Senna Forever
My 13B-EGI has a redline of 8K. is not that far off from 9K, not to mention, How many "street" user Rev the **** outa their car and keep it there for Hours like in a race does ? and what do we get? crappy wear.
Also lets not forget, 13B-EGI has technology thats 20 years older than what we have now(Even the very same part has received material update/process update)
my conclusion is, even w30 is not enough. and forget about w20 oil.
Also lets not forget, 13B-EGI has technology thats 20 years older than what we have now(Even the very same part has received material update/process update)
my conclusion is, even w30 is not enough. and forget about w20 oil.
Maybe we would have to do what Mazda did on the S2 Renesis. Higher oil pressure.
Is our oil pump capable to make higher pressure at higher rpm's? If yes, we would have to change the bypass valves in the oil line, to higher opening pressure bypass, so we would get higher oil pressure at higher rpms.
10-07-2009, 06:13 AM
#194
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There has been a few comments regarding low temps. NYCGPS, you are probably the closest to me in latitude of the people here. Are New England winters too cold for 20w50? Like for December through mid February, I would want to go thinner?
From what I have been following, it seems that the primary complaint against 5w20 isn't initial lubrication, but lack of viscosity, primarily after 1,000+ miles when it starts breaking down due to heat. With very low ambient temps in the winter, does this hold off that breakdown? If 20w50 doesn't move enough in cold startup in the winter, but thinner oils break down too fast from heat, what is a good compromise? Go thin and change it every 1-2k? Go thick and hope it starts moving?
I am on board for outside of winter, but for winter....there are still questions
(I was hoping to have a beater car this winter, but circumstances made that impossible.)
From what I have been following, it seems that the primary complaint against 5w20 isn't initial lubrication, but lack of viscosity, primarily after 1,000+ miles when it starts breaking down due to heat. With very low ambient temps in the winter, does this hold off that breakdown? If 20w50 doesn't move enough in cold startup in the winter, but thinner oils break down too fast from heat, what is a good compromise? Go thin and change it every 1-2k? Go thick and hope it starts moving?
I am on board for outside of winter, but for winter....there are still questions
(I was hoping to have a beater car this winter, but circumstances made that impossible.)
10-07-2009, 03:41 PM
#196
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Thanks, though I am not one to just take a comment as short as that as fact. I prefer to know the dynamics and the 'why', to come to the conclusion myself...even if it is the same conclusion in the end. 
I probably need to get an oil temp gauge to really be sure. Is that one of the ODB2 data streams available?
I probably need to get an oil temp gauge to really be sure. Is that one of the ODB2 data streams available?
10-07-2009, 03:55 PM
#197
I do agree that if you live in an area where the winter temps dip to the 40s or below, and you park outside, then it is a good idea to use 5wsomething, or perhaps 0wsomething.
I'm using 5w30 RP now, and this thread has caused me to consider using 0w40 instead. Interestingly enough, RP 5w30 is actually thinner at 40c than RP 0w40.
Given my driving style & trip lengths in the winter, I'm sure it matters, but in the spring I may change over to 0w40.
I'm using 5w30 RP now, and this thread has caused me to consider using 0w40 instead. Interestingly enough, RP 5w30 is actually thinner at 40c than RP 0w40.
Given my driving style & trip lengths in the winter, I'm sure it matters, but in the spring I may change over to 0w40.
10-07-2009, 04:00 PM
#198
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NYCGPS, you are probably the closest to me in latitude of the people here.
Just slap some 20W-40 in the freezer along with some 0W-40 and after a few hours pour the into clear containers and you will see the difference. The difference will vary depending on brand, weight etc. but if you want grab some Castrol GTX and compare it against some German Castrol 0W-30.
Anyway read this article. ALL OF IT. Then report back and I will give you more to read.
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq...=haas_articles
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 10-07-2009 at 04:04 PM.
10-08-2009, 09:10 AM
#199
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I would not openly admit that
Just slap some 20W-40 in the freezer along with some 0W-40 and after a few hours pour the into clear containers and you will see the difference. The difference will vary depending on brand, weight etc. but if you want grab some Castrol GTX and compare it against some German Castrol 0W-30.
Anyway read this article. ALL OF IT. Then report back and I will give you more to read.
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq...=haas_articles
Just slap some 20W-40 in the freezer along with some 0W-40 and after a few hours pour the into clear containers and you will see the difference. The difference will vary depending on brand, weight etc. but if you want grab some Castrol GTX and compare it against some German Castrol 0W-30.
Anyway read this article. ALL OF IT. Then report back and I will give you more to read.
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq...=haas_articles
I'll do that.I have been faithfully reading the thread, reading new posts each night if I can't get to them during work. Here are the points in the thread that have me on that train of thought, and the questions generated from each, summarized above:
yes, it should do, it'll also stop the oil breaking down as fast which some people are experiencing (i.e. 30w oils becoming 20w after 3k miles) - that's normally caused by excessive heat and load shearing the oil molecules.
IMO that's why people are leaning toward thicker oils - when they do break down they're at the right viscosity,
...
b)Absolutely massive oil cooler - the oil going into our engine is going in at ~35*c, yet it's still coming out at ~130*c on the sensor in the oil cooler inlet - now, given most dino oil starts to break down rapidly above 120*c, you can see why I suspect the high oil temperatures are part of the problem - imagine what temperatures you're oils are getting to given your coolers have perhaps half the area of ours....
IMO that's why people are leaning toward thicker oils - when they do break down they're at the right viscosity,
...
b)Absolutely massive oil cooler - the oil going into our engine is going in at ~35*c, yet it's still coming out at ~130*c on the sensor in the oil cooler inlet - now, given most dino oil starts to break down rapidly above 120*c, you can see why I suspect the high oil temperatures are part of the problem - imagine what temperatures you're oils are getting to given your coolers have perhaps half the area of ours....
I did read the FerrariChat oil post once before, and I read it again. He only talks about really cold temps a few times:
At 32 F the difference between the two is even greater. At 0 F the mineral oil is useless yet the synthetic works fairly well.
A “30” weight oil has a viscosity of 3 at 302 F ( 150 C ) and thickens to 10 at 212 F ( 100 C ). It further thickens to a viscosity of 100 at 104 F ( 40 C ) and is too thick to measure at the freezing point of 32 F ( 0 C ).
30 weight oil:
Temperature ( F )....Thickness
302...........................3
212..........................10
104..........................100
32..........................250 (rough estimate)
30 weight oil:
Temperature ( F )....Thickness
302...........................3
212..........................10
104..........................100
32..........................250 (rough estimate)
Again, just trying to understand. It is floating around just over my head...
10-08-2009, 10:10 AM
#200
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It's a lot to absorb. There is no one answer and every oil is different. You just have to find a balance that is acceptable to you.
I have no scientific data but in my reading (my own opinion) the hardest things on the engine are:
1. Cold starts(any start where the oil has drained to the pan and has been sitting for hours)
2. Lack of proper OMP (SOHN needed)
3. Improper warm up procedure (personally my car does not move until I get my coolant temp near 150 degrees F)
4. Short trips where the oil does not get to temp fully
5. Poor Maintenance (OIC, quality of oil, etc.)
I have no scientific data but in my reading (my own opinion) the hardest things on the engine are:
1. Cold starts(any start where the oil has drained to the pan and has been sitting for hours)
2. Lack of proper OMP (SOHN needed)
3. Improper warm up procedure (personally my car does not move until I get my coolant temp near 150 degrees F)
4. Short trips where the oil does not get to temp fully
5. Poor Maintenance (OIC, quality of oil, etc.)