renesis removal/rebuild
02-10-2009, 11:23 PM
#152
kevin@rotaryresurrection
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A lot of the long time owners have sold their cars and moved on to other newer platforms. A lot of the cars are getting parted or wrecked. A lot of guys are buying perfectly good cars that need just a few things, and parting them out for money instead of putting them back on the road like they should be. Many of the long time owners are at odds with each other due to business or technical disagreements and so there arent as many big meets and clubs as there used to be.
The people who do buy and own them are largely young and dumb, thus they just tear things up on the cars even worse than they were. Being young they rarely have the funds to rebuild and modify the cars properly. They "come into the game" and want those of us with knowledge to simply tell them what to do, instead of them doing their own research and figuring out how to do what they want. Then these people get mad when we refuse to spoon feed them, and say we are "hating on" them. People are hacking the cars up for drift cars and piston engine swaps, and halfass "street race" cars.
Just this month a local guy located a rare 89 turbo II rx7 in the backwoods of east TN. The car ran and drove but did need an engine refresh to be reliable. The 89-91 turbo models are the most desireable and rare 2nd gens, especially in good condition. Some of them fetch as much money as 3rd gen FD's.
So what does this guy do with this rare and desireable car? He promptly starts hacking the car up for an iron block v8 swap.
It's not the fact that he's doing the swap. It's the fact that he chose the rare model to hack up instead of using a run of the mill, dime-a-dozen non turbo body to hack on to his heart's content. I told him he is doing the equivalent of hacking up a stock buick grand national, instead of buying a shitty regal body to hack up instead. The end result would perform the same for him, but one less rare car is on the road now for everyone else.
Rx7club has done it's best in the last 12-14 months to alienate every major vendor and parts seller who refuses to pay their ransom and do things they way they want them done, even if those ways are completely back assward. They have split the community in doing so, and continue to cover this up and lie about it. They have forced their forum members to buy from lesser known and lesser trustworthy sellers because all the good ones are no longer there. The forum is no longer a center of technical information because there is so much bullshit posted on a daily basis that few questions get answered, the archives pile up with useless threads, and the knowledgeable posters have mostly given up on the cause and no longer contribute routinely.
The people who do buy and own them are largely young and dumb, thus they just tear things up on the cars even worse than they were. Being young they rarely have the funds to rebuild and modify the cars properly. They "come into the game" and want those of us with knowledge to simply tell them what to do, instead of them doing their own research and figuring out how to do what they want. Then these people get mad when we refuse to spoon feed them, and say we are "hating on" them. People are hacking the cars up for drift cars and piston engine swaps, and halfass "street race" cars.
Just this month a local guy located a rare 89 turbo II rx7 in the backwoods of east TN. The car ran and drove but did need an engine refresh to be reliable. The 89-91 turbo models are the most desireable and rare 2nd gens, especially in good condition. Some of them fetch as much money as 3rd gen FD's.
So what does this guy do with this rare and desireable car? He promptly starts hacking the car up for an iron block v8 swap.
It's not the fact that he's doing the swap. It's the fact that he chose the rare model to hack up instead of using a run of the mill, dime-a-dozen non turbo body to hack on to his heart's content. I told him he is doing the equivalent of hacking up a stock buick grand national, instead of buying a shitty regal body to hack up instead. The end result would perform the same for him, but one less rare car is on the road now for everyone else.
Rx7club has done it's best in the last 12-14 months to alienate every major vendor and parts seller who refuses to pay their ransom and do things they way they want them done, even if those ways are completely back assward. They have split the community in doing so, and continue to cover this up and lie about it. They have forced their forum members to buy from lesser known and lesser trustworthy sellers because all the good ones are no longer there. The forum is no longer a center of technical information because there is so much bullshit posted on a daily basis that few questions get answered, the archives pile up with useless threads, and the knowledgeable posters have mostly given up on the cause and no longer contribute routinely.
02-11-2009, 02:33 AM
#154
Super Moderator
Actually the warranty really f'd me pretty hard. I was starting to get a few requests for renesis rebuilds and installs. I spent probably 4-6 grand this year on renesis core engines and internal parts to stock my shelf in anticipation of the coming need for replacement parts. I put a large part of this year's profits back into buying renesis stuff.
Then the warranty came out. Dont get me wrong...it was a great step by mazda for their original owner/customer base. But it was a bitch slap across the face to me...now I have all these parts on my shelf that are nearly useless (and valueless) because everyone is getting free mazda remans so no one is going to need any internals or pay for any private rebuilding service.
I have had no requests for rx8 work since the warranty extension. I actually lost a job right when the letters were mailed. I'd gotten a call from a local used car dealership who sold an rx8 and a few days later the buyer complained of engine failure and threatened to sue his dealership. He inquired about getting me to go through the engine for him, he was going to split the costs with the buyer as a show of good faith, and I can already do the job for half of mazda's cost to begin with, so it was going to help him out a lot. Well, the letter came to me, and the next day the guy called back asking when I could start on it for him. I was too nice of a guy to take advantage of him, so I explained the warranty letter would be coming to him or his buyer any day, and that he can now take the car back to mazda and get all the work done for free. Well, that and, I knew if I took the job and did the rebuild for him and THEN he/his buyer got the warranty letter, they'd bitch about having to pay me and it may cause unnecessary problems. Or if they got the letter right after I finished the job, they would bitch because mazda probably would not reimburse them for the work they paid me for.
I will still be able to recoup my investment from these renesis cores I have bought, but it will just take 2-3 years longer than anticipated because no one needs any of it right now. Just look at the guy with the NEW set of renesis engine rotors in the classifieds for less than half of what ONE new rotor would cost at retail, and no bites.
Most of my work is actually not local...in fact excluding the one "distributor" that I use to sell my engines through (who is local to me), I do 90% of my work for customers outside the state of TN.
But yes, the local economy has taken a hard hit. This is an industrial town and about half of the factories have laid off, the other half have stopped hiring altogether. My wife's aunt works at a Sea-Ray plant where they build boats. She was temporarily laid off between mid October and early January of this year along with about 50% of the work force. When she returned to work in January they told them that they had 90 days of employment before a permanent layoff.
Then the warranty came out. Dont get me wrong...it was a great step by mazda for their original owner/customer base. But it was a bitch slap across the face to me...now I have all these parts on my shelf that are nearly useless (and valueless) because everyone is getting free mazda remans so no one is going to need any internals or pay for any private rebuilding service.
I have had no requests for rx8 work since the warranty extension. I actually lost a job right when the letters were mailed. I'd gotten a call from a local used car dealership who sold an rx8 and a few days later the buyer complained of engine failure and threatened to sue his dealership. He inquired about getting me to go through the engine for him, he was going to split the costs with the buyer as a show of good faith, and I can already do the job for half of mazda's cost to begin with, so it was going to help him out a lot. Well, the letter came to me, and the next day the guy called back asking when I could start on it for him. I was too nice of a guy to take advantage of him, so I explained the warranty letter would be coming to him or his buyer any day, and that he can now take the car back to mazda and get all the work done for free. Well, that and, I knew if I took the job and did the rebuild for him and THEN he/his buyer got the warranty letter, they'd bitch about having to pay me and it may cause unnecessary problems. Or if they got the letter right after I finished the job, they would bitch because mazda probably would not reimburse them for the work they paid me for.
I will still be able to recoup my investment from these renesis cores I have bought, but it will just take 2-3 years longer than anticipated because no one needs any of it right now. Just look at the guy with the NEW set of renesis engine rotors in the classifieds for less than half of what ONE new rotor would cost at retail, and no bites.
Most of my work is actually not local...in fact excluding the one "distributor" that I use to sell my engines through (who is local to me), I do 90% of my work for customers outside the state of TN.
But yes, the local economy has taken a hard hit. This is an industrial town and about half of the factories have laid off, the other half have stopped hiring altogether. My wife's aunt works at a Sea-Ray plant where they build boats. She was temporarily laid off between mid October and early January of this year along with about 50% of the work force. When she returned to work in January they told them that they had 90 days of employment before a permanent layoff.
YOUR GOOD KARMA will come back to you.
If you can hang onto your gear there will be a time when the warranty runs out and I know in the future Guys here (US) will support you...but alas,, it is a LONG wait.
This melt down is very scary, we here in Australia are yet to see the HARD hit, but they are happening and we will be in the same position as the US very soon.
This is going to take years to bounce back, when all the debt is paid off.IMO.
Take care man!
02-11-2009, 09:34 AM
#156
Registered
Rx7club has done it's best in the last 12-14 months to alienate every major vendor and parts seller who refuses to pay their ransom and do things they way they want them done, even if those ways are completely back assward. They have split the community in doing so, and continue to cover this up and lie about it. They have forced their forum members to buy from lesser known and lesser trustworthy sellers because all the good ones are no longer there. The forum is no longer a center of technical information because there is so much bullshit posted on a daily basis that few questions get answered, the archives pile up with useless threads, and the knowledgeable posters have mostly given up on the cause and no longer contribute routinely.
02-11-2009, 12:10 PM
#157
Certified Mazda Tech
rotaryres: as im sure you know, there's more then one side of the rx7 neighborhood, rx7club simply happens to be the biggest. there are plenty of people out there keeping heritage alive and respecting what the rx7 is/was.
you should hop over to "the other forum" and wander around, some really good guys there, they muck around a bit but thats cause most longtime guys are straight carguys and so we share carguy-esque convos.
kevin.
you should hop over to "the other forum" and wander around, some really good guys there, they muck around a bit but thats cause most longtime guys are straight carguys and so we share carguy-esque convos.
kevin.
02-11-2009, 01:31 PM
#158
kevin@rotaryresurrection
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I am on the other forum...in fact I am the vendor admin there. It is a great place to hang out and discuss things with reasonably intelligent people, but there simply is not enough traffic to help from a business standpoint at this time.
02-11-2009, 06:51 PM
#160
Registered
The sad thing Kevin is that as these cars get older and older and slowly disappear, there's going to be less and less business which sucks. Many of the RX-8 owners aren't the fanatics or experimenters that the 7 people are but there are a few here and there.
02-11-2009, 07:07 PM
#161
Super Moderator
Depending on whether Mazda continues the RX-8 (just a model name) with another generation, which is sadly not looking very positive I believe you will see a growing market of young guys buying 9 year old RX-8's (Gen 1) and modding..like they do with the RX-7.
I really don't see much difference as there are many fanatic 8 owners out there.
I really don't see much difference as there are many fanatic 8 owners out there.
02-11-2009, 08:09 PM
#162
Certified Mazda Tech
I think thats the way the core of the community, the "hardcore" real rotorheads, are going. the rest will see themselves to the door
thats the general rule of thumb for communities. start small, explosion of new/"odd thinkers", return to small, rinse, repeat. Unfortunately the cars are of limited quantity, parts are limitless with japan's supply though, well not limitless but you know. That and the replica makers who "kill" the originals, will continue making and rechurning, until new originals tired of the "cheap" replica makers will come out with some new crazy **** everyone wants and replica makers dont catch onto and tool up to quick enough.
kevin.
02-11-2009, 08:37 PM
#163
kevin@rotaryresurrection
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Depending on whether Mazda continues the RX-8 (just a model name) with another generation, which is sadly not looking very positive I believe you will see a growing market of young guys buying 9 year old RX-8's (Gen 1) and modding..like they do with the RX-7.
I really don't see much difference as there are many fanatic 8 owners out there.
I really don't see much difference as there are many fanatic 8 owners out there.
I mean, look at what you spend trying to get 20-30rwhp...intake, pullies, catback, midpipe, AP/other PCM adaptation, you're well into the $2000 range. You want to get more than 235rwhp, you need boost, which will likely cut the (already questionable) engine's longevity in half and cost 4-10 grand.
Some might say, give it time, and more mods for the rx8s will come out and price will come down. We are now 5.5 years into the platform and development of significant modifications is still lagging and (for most) prohibitively expensive. In contrast it only took, what...1-2 years for twin turbo 350Z's and such to hit the market, with much better results in both power and reliability?
Sure, there will be rx8 work coming in at some point. It will be more stock rebuilds than modifications. I think lots of engine swaps will be done when the cars get cheaper. When a renesis breaks seals it will likely damage 4 of the 8 major parts in the engine and so the rebuild costs will be higher than the average for the older rotaries. When faced with a 2-4 grand minimum for stock power output and the likelihood of another 40-75k mile longevity and some people will either get rid of the car or do an engine swap rather than do a rebuild.
02-11-2009, 09:20 PM
#164
Registered
40-75k longevity? I know there's been lots of problems but I'm still thinking a well cared for Renesis will do a lot better than that. Frequent oil changes with proper weight oil, premix, proper warm-ups, etc. Ask me again in 50k miles, I might not be singing the same tune. But we definitley need a new 7 for a better performance platform. Rotaries should be light weight.
02-11-2009, 09:29 PM
#165
RX-Heaven
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Just this month a local guy located a rare 89 turbo II rx7 in the backwoods of east TN. The car ran and drove but did need an engine refresh to be reliable. The 89-91 turbo models are the most desireable and rare 2nd gens, especially in good condition. Some of them fetch as much money as 3rd gen FD's.
So what does this guy do with this rare and desireable car? He promptly starts hacking the car up for an iron block v8 swap.
It's not the fact that he's doing the swap. It's the fact that he chose the rare model to hack up instead of using a run of the mill, dime-a-dozen non turbo body to hack on to his heart's content. I told him he is doing the equivalent of hacking up a stock buick grand national, instead of buying a shitty regal body to hack up instead. The end result would perform the same for him, but one less rare car is on the road now for everyone else.
So what does this guy do with this rare and desireable car? He promptly starts hacking the car up for an iron block v8 swap.
It's not the fact that he's doing the swap. It's the fact that he chose the rare model to hack up instead of using a run of the mill, dime-a-dozen non turbo body to hack on to his heart's content. I told him he is doing the equivalent of hacking up a stock buick grand national, instead of buying a shitty regal body to hack up instead. The end result would perform the same for him, but one less rare car is on the road now for everyone else.
02-11-2009, 09:58 PM
#166
I've met Kevin a couple times actually, though he wouldn't remember me. It was once at the 05 NOPI nationals when he had his silver FD and then at the 06 Deal's Gap meet briefly. Those were much better times. The NC rotaries crew has been in steady decline since 06 due to personal issues among some members (split in the major Raleigh group) and people's cars falling apart. The whole car scene has deteriorated, and all the people who got in when it was a fad are getting out fast. Most of my "car friends" have either moved up in the game (a few have gotten a newer and nicer car) or in most cases gotten out of project cars altogether, especially as guys get married or move to places where it's not practical to keep a 7.
I think people are going to look back at 2001-2006 as a sort of golden age of the car scene, like the late 60s. It may come back again but at this rate it could be another half-lifetime away. Everybody's too broke to spend money on their cars. I know I've spent too much over the years and now I need to just get my 7 running again and not do a whole lot of modding for a while.
I think people are going to look back at 2001-2006 as a sort of golden age of the car scene, like the late 60s. It may come back again but at this rate it could be another half-lifetime away. Everybody's too broke to spend money on their cars. I know I've spent too much over the years and now I need to just get my 7 running again and not do a whole lot of modding for a while.
Last edited by arghx7; 02-11-2009 at 10:02 PM.
02-11-2009, 10:01 PM
#167
kevin@rotaryresurrection
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40-75k longevity? I know there's been lots of problems but I'm still thinking a well cared for Renesis will do a lot better than that. Frequent oil changes with proper weight oil, premix, proper warm-ups, etc. Ask me again in 50k miles, I might not be singing the same tune. But we definitley need a new 7 for a better performance platform. Rotaries should be light weight.
Some of the guys here sackride the renesis design, and don't get me wrong, I do like the engine. However, when you stand back and look at it from a more objective point of view, the engine is a failure in terms of advancement of the cause and general public perception.
Mazda had 11 years worth of research/development plus the benefit of newer and better materials and control systems now available to use to build their new rotary. Yet we still find a rotary producing less power than the previous version (232 vs 255). The benefit of this is compromise is supposed to be better MPG and better longevity. Yet we see a rotary making the same or lower MPG as the last one (FD's can obtain 24-25mpg on the highway in flat areas, rx8's struggle to obtain 21-22) and we see one with just as many, if not more, warranty and engine replacement issues as the previous version.
Mazda seems to do everything right up to a certain point in engineering the engine and car, and then shoot themselves (and us) in the foot at the last minute. I dunno why, maybe they rush the product before it is really fully tested?
This is the same company that put a pulsation damper that failed quickly and caused engine fires on 2nd gen rx7s, and an ecu programmed with too much cranking fuel injection that caused consistent flooding of older models. The same company that put 70-some vacuum hoses and a plastic coolant tank in an FD engine bay that stayed 300 degrees, and alas, the same company that decided it would be a good idea not to inject oil on the center area of the apex seals in the renesis. All of these issues cause us to lose engines and cause the cars to have bad reputations.
02-11-2009, 10:12 PM
#168
kevin@rotaryresurrection
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I've met Kevin a couple times actually, though he wouldn't remember me. It was once at the 05 NOPI nationals when he had his silver FD and then at the 06 Deal's Gap meet briefly. Those were much better times. The NC rotaries crew has been in steady decline since 06 due to personal issues among some members (split in the major Raleigh group) and people's cars falling apart. The whole car scene has deteriorated, and all the people who got in when it was a fad are getting out fast. Most of my "car friends" have either moved up in the game (a few have gotten a newer and nicer car) or gotten out of project cars altogether.
I think people are going to look back at 01-06 as a sort of golden age of the car scene, like the late 60s. It may come back again but at this rate it could be half a lifetime away. Everybody's too broke to spend money on their cars. I know I've spent too much over the years and now I need to just get my 7 running again and not do a whole lot of modding for a while.
I think people are going to look back at 01-06 as a sort of golden age of the car scene, like the late 60s. It may come back again but at this rate it could be half a lifetime away. Everybody's too broke to spend money on their cars. I know I've spent too much over the years and now I need to just get my 7 running again and not do a whole lot of modding for a while.
Now most of those cars are hacked up or allowed to deteriorate. There are no longer very many "mid grade" rx7s...you either find a really nice one and pay out the yin-yang for it, or you find a piece of **** that someone still wants too much money for considering what you'd have to do to make it roadworthy again. Most of the reliable sellers have quit or gone out of business, or been run away for other reasons, and so old aftermarket parts are harder to find in good condition now. Scammers are more abundant and have filled the void left by the good sellers.
02-11-2009, 10:22 PM
#169
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Some of the guys here sackride the renesis design, and don't get me wrong, I do like the engine. However, when you stand back and look at it from a more objective point of view, the engine is a failure in terms of advancement of the cause and general public perception.
02-16-2009, 02:34 PM
#171
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I just purchased an 04/MT motor with 110000 miles. The owner had it compression checked and it was low, so he stopped driving it untill he could get another motor.
Any ideas where I can get the best prices on parts for a rebuild?
Any ideas where I can get the best prices on parts for a rebuild?
02-16-2009, 03:01 PM
#173
This was my same reasoning when I did my rebuild in April of 2007.
02-16-2009, 03:40 PM
#174
Administrator
Yet we still find a rotary producing less power than the previous version (232 vs 255). The benefit of this is compromise is supposed to be better MPG and better longevity. Yet we see a rotary making the same or lower MPG as the last one (FD's can obtain 24-25mpg on the highway in flat areas, rx8's struggle to obtain 21-22)
First the 232 vs 255 is NA vs Turbo. look at the increase this engine vs the last non-turbo 13b AND compare the emissions- this is CLEARLY a better design. Take in to account as well that star mazda cars and others racing the Renesis are putting 245-260 out at the crank STILL NA and that puts the end to that comparison.
Second many many of us here have shown time and again that this car is capable of 24+ mpg Highway. The reason many don't is simple gear selection. This is in a car that weighs considerably more than the car you compare it to. Its at least a 20% improvement in mileage over that car when the weight of the cars are considered.
As far as longevity- The number of Renesis failures is from my understanding still under 5%. I believe 3rd gen failures in the states was something akin to 90%? Thats probably exaggerated and the Renesis could be 10% and there is no denying the Renesis failures- but to suggest it is any where near the level of 3rd gens is just ridiculous
02-16-2009, 03:54 PM
#175
Registered
My '90 RX-7 is naturally aspirated, weighs around 2700 lbs, has 160 hp at the crank, which is almost 17 lbs per hp (compare that to your cars!), and still gets 18 city/22 hwy with far dirtier emissions than the Renesis and far less aggressive gearing. How can ANYONE complain about the Renesis? I have the last naturally aspirated rotary before the Renesis and they are lightyears apart. You can not compare a turbo rotary to a naturally aspirated one.
If my RX-7 had a Renesis in it, with the added power it would out accelerate a stock TII all day long without even trying, and due to the added efficiency of the engine would probably get 20 city/30 hwy without even trying and it would do it with half the emissions.
If my RX-7 had a Renesis in it, with the added power it would out accelerate a stock TII all day long without even trying, and due to the added efficiency of the engine would probably get 20 city/30 hwy without even trying and it would do it with half the emissions.