What is the "synerlec" stuff RP mentions. Always wondered about that.
olddragger

 

Can someone more knowledgeable than me speak on the Phos/zinc content of oils in referance to the catilytic c.
thanks
olddragger

 

I do know that the newest API classification, "SM" specifies lower limits for Zinc and Phosphorus (typically ZDDP antiwear additive) than the "SL" classification, to try and extend the life of catlytic converters. This is a challenge in the oil industry, to provide the same levels of wear protection with less ZDDP, which is inexpensive and performs very well.

After perusing the numbers on the virgin oil analysis, I'm rethinking my plans to go to Red Line vs. Mobil 1. The Red Line contains significantly more Zinc and Phosphorus. And, from what I've read is not API certified, so they don't have to abide by the limits. This might be good for engines that experience absolute extremes as in racing, but I worry about the catalytic converter. For an engine like Renesis, which consumes oil by design, the phosphorus load on the catalytic converter is already high. I'd rather not double it.

 

I don't see what the big deal is.........

If you change your oil frequently, I don't see how one can be better than the other..

This includes synthetics..

Hell you wouldn't believe hoe often I change my oil.

 

Actually after looking at the oil analysis link from BITOG, it doesn't tell much of what is really relevant. It tells us primarily what was added to the oil but it doesn't tell us what is left in regards to the "aromatics", ash content, and other contaminants that affect the strength of the oil.

 

If that's really the case then I'm sure you don't care what oil you use at all provided that it is just oil, whether it be a cheap no name Walmart bottle or otherwise. Cheaper is just as good as it's all the same. I'm sure you don't care what weight oil you use as it all does the same job. I'm sure you don't care who makes your oil filter as so long as you at least have one since they all do the same job. I'm sure you don't care where you buy gas from whether it be from Shell, Exxon, or the little stop and rob convenience store that sells it cheaper than all the rest as it all burns. Is this correct? It's cool if this is how you think. It's your car. Keep doing what makes you comfortable and makes you happy. Can't expect more than that and we all do things a little differently. At least you change your oil often! Some don't ever change it.

 

hoe* often do you change yours then. I really wonder.

I change mine between 1.5K miles to 3K miles. Most likely no more than 2K unless Im busy.

Like RG said, you dont really care cuz its all the same anyway.

but I believe more in, the better I protect it, the longer it would last. and no its not the same. if its better, its better.

 

My favorite comparison is still to compare 2 students applying for the same job. The job is only temporary and will eventually be replaced with someone anyways but for the time the position is filled, it needs to be done the best that anyone can do it with as little chance for issues to arise as possible. What potential liability will each applicant bring with them to the company? This is important. One of the students applying for the job is a D- student but just got by and met the required qualifications. The other is an A+ student and also meets the required minimum qualifications with plenty of room to spare. Would a business really choose one over the other even though it is a temporary position? Some would and some wouldn't! Some people like synthetics and some don't. Let's take this one step farther...

As funny as this sounds how many times are people passed over for a potential job because they are over qualified? It happens every day. Of course it happens because someone who is over qualified will be expected to make more money (cost the company more) than the person who merely meets just the requirements. Remember, they both can do the job according to it's minimum standards. Saving money is a very strong decision maker and many companies will do it at the expense of hiring the best person for the job. This of course makes the assumption that in the long term, there could be absolutely no differences in overall performance between each person and as a result, one is not worth more than the other. How many people don't want to use synthetics based solely on the fact that they don't want to pay the extra few dollars to do so?

Isn't it funny how the same rationale can apply to everything from business hiring practices to oil usage!

 

Doesn't oil work better as it is used?

 

Great analogy, except for one tiny problem: I want to use synthetic! I've always used synthetic until now, happy to pay the higher cost. I don't use synthetic in the 8 not to save money—but to save my engine. (If Mazda didn't give me a DVD specifying use of a "non-synthetic" oil I'd be using synthetic in this car, too.)

Nice analogy, though.

 

Could you please tell me which part of the DVD saids "specifying use of a non-synthetic oil" ?

Cuz I've been looking at it over and over, I just cant find that part.

All I found was "non-recommended due to unknown long term effect"


Unless you have a newer version of the DVD.

Mazda does "non*t* recommend you to do service your 8 other than a Mazda Dealer. Did you listen to that part? or lets put it this way, WOULD you listen to that? Do you think its right, or full of bull ?

According to your analogy, people might Screw their 8 over if they perform any work other than Mazda dealer. Yes its possible, but I think the chances of Dealership screwup are WAY higher than typical shop.

 

My DVD says "Non-synthetic 5w-20 oil, SL or ILSAC approvals." Those words appear on the screen and are held for some time as the narrator speaks. He goes on to say that the seals are compatible with synthetics, but long term effects are unknown, Mazda does not recommend.

(Files on my DVD are dated Feb. 3, 2005.)

I'd put Mazda's recommendation against synthetic oils in a different category than their recommendation to use only Mazda parts and service. In the US, at least, Mazda does not sell their own brand of oil, so they're not doing it to sell something.

I'm also disappointed that they specify only SL and the weight, even though there are oils that meet SL but do not satisfy Mazda's standard oil change intervals.

Ken

 

Mine doesnt say that. it did say that due to long term effects are unknown crap.

Whatever, Im sick of this debate. Like people said, use whatever you want, but keep it to yourselfs. Also remember To do everything at a mazda dealer, cuz thats what Mazda recommended.

 

Yes - the debate is annoying. But the technical content in this thread is awesome.

What's the date on your DVD?

Ken

 

I forgot, but I was like one of the very first group of people to get the DVD.

Doesnt matter to me, I think I did more than what the DVD asked for even before the DVD exist. (for example, change my oil every 1.5K-3K miles, mostly 2K. First oil change 1K)

 

As I've stated many times, you need to understand why Mazda has said not to use synthetics. It's very simple. The problem is not that synthetics cause problems. They make it sound like this but not even the top rotary engineers in Japan believe this. I've asked! The issue is centered around the fact that there is at least 1 synthetic on the market that has potentially caused issues. This is not a synthetic issue. It is a formulation issue and that is the fault of the person/company who makes it. If synthetics were bad, they'd all be bad. If this were the case then Idemitsu, which was jointly developed by Mazda for use in the rotary engine, would also not be a safe oil to use. It is and no one has ever debated that fact. The reason Mazda says not to use synthetics is because they can not say not to use any particular manufacturers synthetic oil. If they name names, they are leaving themselves open to potential lawsuits. It is far easier to play it safe by just recommending not to use any of them. This way, if people listen, there will be no chance of them using the troublesome oil. It's as simple as that.

There are many synthetics out there that we know to work great in the rotary and at least 1 that we know Mazda quietly does not want to be used in the engine. They have been listed before. By following the guidelines for what we know to be good, you'll have no issues related to synthetic oil. If you use an oil other than what is known to work, you are taking a risk. I feel it is still a small one though. How many conventional no name oils can you get for cheap at Walmart, or at the convenience store? How many of them would you put in your engine? I wouldn't use any of these! Does this mean that all conventionals are bad too? See how funny blanket statements can be!

There are people out there that will take anything they hear and believe it as gospel. There are others that will figure out why what was said, was said. Lawyers and accountants have a larger effect on what gets said to the public than the actual engineers do. That's the way things are now because too many people can't think for themselves and need to be told what to do or else they'll find an excuse to place blame on anybody for any reason at all when something goes wrong. Just look at all the frivolous lawsuits that we have. There is nothing wrong with learning or questioning a decision. Unfortunately today we are teaching otherwise.

 

Here's an article that has some info concerning ash content of oils.

http://www.off-road.com/RoverWeb/OilFAQ.html

It looks as if ash is what we should be concerned with if we are looking for low sludge formations within the engine.

We are just guessing at what Mazda doesn't like about some synthetics. I have a personal theory about extended change intervals with synthetics and the injection of that oil into the engine at the end of the change period.

What I have read from the Amsoil folks is that much of the ash in motor oils comes from the detergent additives. They of course have some brags on that.

(Update- on further review this article is everywhere. Shows how little info there is publicly available on oil.)

 

Please step AWAY from the thread!

 

Keeping it to ourselves really isn't a way to share with others what does and doesn't work. That's already a problem that the rotary community has as a whole. I don't believe in secrets. I want everyone to progress and the only way to make that happen is if we all share what we know and give factual evidence to support our claims and not just hearsay or passing on what someone else has said without understanding it. Debating is about taking the time to understand different positions and how they reached their conclusions. Debating about things is natural and we don't all have to agree but the info is still useful. Just because one person didn't get anything out of it doesn't mean others didn't. Sometimes through debates, new revelations happen. That would not be possible if we always "kept it to ourselves"!

If you are sick of debates, don't take a part in them but please don't also take the time to state that you are sick of them. That's a part of keeping it to yourself so please follow your own advice! One thing that I don't want people to think about degbating a topic is that we are neccessarily being mean and taking personal shots at others. I for one am just very sarcastic and sometimes that sarcasm is hard to express in mere typed words. Sometimes I sound like I'm being mean but I'm actually not. Debates usually get to be intolerable when they get personal. For the most part, friendly debates are very healthy and productive.

 

Your not going to learn anything from a consumer grade oil analysis on the formulation of the oil except maybe on zinc vs phosphorus anti-wear additives.... and perhaps if its using old school silicon anti-foamants.


I've seen mass spectrometers used on pick apart analysis in the industry and then you are still guessing with who's using what.

 

I did a search on this forum, and I hope this is not a repost, but here is:

RG, I found a PDF, by a author of unknown authority, that has an index of oil test results. It was last updated in June of 2003.

Hopefully, the data can be taken as factual. The author mentions that test data can be had from the oil companies with an email, so that may be worth trying.

http://www.trustmymechanic.com/motor...h%20content%22

 

That's a very closed minded way of thinking. You are assuming that I am going to take what I see and base solid conclusions on it. That's just as bad as believing a TSB for no other reason than the fact that Mazda released it without knowing why. What I really want to do is to see all the info that I can get on each oil, and then analyze the data. It doesn't mean I will come to any conclusions but at the very least I will learn what approaches different companies take towards oil formulation. There is still something worthwhile out of it. The pursuit of knowledge on a topic doesn't neccessarily mean the end result will be a solid conclusion. If it leads there then great. If not, hopefully I will come away with something that I didn't know before.

The thing that even the best most thorough oil analysis can't tell anyone is how any of the oil base stocks were formulated. In other words, we can't tell whether or not one is synthetic or not. It would take a long time to understand why this is so. It would be nice to see if there were any additives or other components that could be common to oils that seem to cause issues. Maybe or maybe not but to say that "you're not going to learn anything" is a pretty inaccurate statement. I learn because I want to. Others don't learn even though the information is right in front of them in big letters and they are actually reading it. To each his own though. I and many others will get something good out of it. The good I've already gotten out of my research is that I found an oil that I feel is best for my use. That made it all worth it.

 

Nice try, but… no. While every manufacturer recommends their own dealers for service, only Mazda recommends "non-synthetic" oil—and for only one of their cars: the RX-8.

 

I really love the way you talk, sound alot like my father Very useful words. Yes you're right.

Sigh ....

When will this end ?

Oh another thing, are we going to send new Oil to blackstone to check ? Im ready to hit the button.

 

Thats "soooooO double standard" my friend.