Rotarygod's rotary oil tech blog
09-10-2005 | 07:39 AM
#102
Super Moderator
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,869
Likes: 327
From: Australia
Originally Posted by nycgps
Got this from Royal Purple's site. Yeah You might think its all marketing full of crap. but Read it anyway (in case you havent do so)
Rotary Engines
Can Royal Purple Motor Oil be used in a rotary engine?
Yes. A rotary engine is a modified four cycle engine that recommends the use of an API licensed motor oil for street applications.
More information and FAQs on lubrication of Rotary Engines:
In a rotary engine, the oil lubricates the eccentric shaft bearings, thrust needle bearings and rotor bearings similar to a crank and rod bearing of a piston engine as well as being injected into the combustion chambers to lubricate the apex seals, corner seals, and side seals helping to create the sealing mechanism doing the equivalent job of the piston rings.
Royal Purple provides outstanding protection for the e-shaft, rotor bearings, thrust bearings and is suitable for the oil injection system as it has proven to run cleaner than other oils and is an excellent choice for rotary apex seals, corner seals, and side seals.
Mazda makes a statement in the Owner’s Manual not to use synthetic oils in a rotary engine, why do you say that it is OK?
Royal Purple has performed seal compatibility testing on the components used in a rotary with excellent results, including older rotary engine seals dating back to the Cosmo. Royal Purple’s Technical Services Manager David Canitz has been an owner and racer of rotary engine cars and has used synthetic motor oils in rotaries since 1985 with excellent results. He has been trying to find an answer to this Mazda statement for the last 18 years.
In the early development of synthetic oils decades ago, there were purportedly some seal compatibility issues. Today’s synthetic oils do not have the compatibility issues of the old oils. There is no substantiated evidence of seal compatibility issues with Royal Purple.
Here are some facts:
The Mazda Factory racing departments recommend and use ‘synthetic’ oils including the winning 1991 Leman’s 20-G 4 rotor Mazda 787B.
MazdaComp USA printed manual (now Mazdaspeed) recommends the use of synthetic oils for racing conditions.
Royal Purple Motor Oils have been used in rotary engines (both race and street) for ten plus years with excellent results.
Royal Purple Motor Oil is compatible with the bearing material, sealing elastomers, and combustion seals used in a rotary engine.
I heard that synthetic oil doesn't burn like mineral based oils and will coat the inside of the engine with deposits.
If this was a problem with synthetic motor oils in general, then all internal combustion engines using a ‘synthetic’ would experience increased deposits on internal surfaces. The opposite is actually the norm.
Conventional four cycle motor oils will typically leave deposits of carbon and ash when injected into the rotary apex seal, corner seal, and side seal areas. Royal Purple’s motor oil actually burns cleaner due to the synthetic base stock being free of contamination and many of the additives being ‘ashless’. This may not be true for all synthetics but Royal Purple has been proven to work extremely well in rotary engines.
Royal Purple’s formulation of synthetic hydrocarbon motor oil does burn at the nominal combustion temperatures experienced in both street and racing applications, whether normally aspirated, turbocharged, or supercharged. (500 – 1700° F idle to race rpms typical combustion temps)
Will the synthetic oil effect the oil seals?
No. Royal Purple’s Motor Oil is fully compatible with the elastomers found in rotary engines as well as more conventional piston engines. The oil seals, housing seals and other elastomers used in rotary engines typically consist of Buna N, Nitriles, Neoprene, or Viton materials which are also commonly found in piston engine cars.
I hear that synthetic is ‘thinner or lighter’ oil, is there a greater possibility that the oil will leak between the seals?
No. If an engine’s sealing surfaces are in good condition, synthetic oil should not cause any leakage. However, if an engine has marginal seals, there is a 50/50 chance the seals will leak less or more. A synthetic motor oil is going to have similar viscosity to that of a conventional motor oil – except at extreme temperatures. Due to a flatter viscosity curve, at low temperatures it will not thicken as much (easier winter cranking) and it does not thin out as quickly at higher operating temperatures (better oil film at higher rpm).
Should I go longer or shorter between oil changes?
Royal Purple recommends that the maximum oil drain / filter change interval listed in the Owner’s Manual be followed while under warranty (new RX8). For FA, FB, FC, FC Turbos, and FD rotaries, extending drain intervals from two to five fold is possible if desired. Since the rotary engine injects oil through the use of a metered oil pump, either adding oil into the carb base plate air / fuel mixture or directly injecting oil into the rotor housing, rotary engines will consume oil of one quart per 1000 – 3000 miles. It is important to maintain the proper crankcase oil level in your rotary engine if you decide to extend oil drain intervals.
If I pre-mix my fuel for the rotary engine, do I use the same ratio as with mineral based oils? Does it burn at the same rate?
In an ideal world, the rotary engine metered oil pump should inject an ashless oil designed to burn in the combustion chamber and use a four cycle oil in the crankcase for the eccentric shaft, rotor bearings, and thrust bearings. For the street, Mazda simplified the OE system to use just one oil, that being a typical four cycle oil for both the e-shaft as well as the combustion chamber. Royal Purple recommends using our standard TCW III 2 Cycle Oil if the metered oil pump is still enabled. The two cycle oil being added to the fuel tank is in addition to what Mazda designed to inject and acts as a supplement or insurance. Depending on which engine, the level of modifications (street port, Bridgeport, peripheral port, nitrous, turbocharged) and application, the typical mix ratio could vary from 200:1 to 800:1.
For a pure racing application where the metered oil pump has been disabled or removed, again based on the actual engine and modification level, the ratio could vary from 150:1 to 600:1. For this application, we recommend our Racing 2 Cycle TCW III product or the standard 2 Cycle TCW III can also be used.
A stock FD twin turbo 13B with the MOP oil injection system can typically use about one quart per 1500 miles under hard street driving. If this vehicle is getting 15 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio is 400:1. If the oil consumption on this vehicle reduces to 1 quart per 2500 miles and fuel efficiency increases to 20 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio increases to 600:1. The stock metering oil pump is a great system as it varies with throttle position (load on the engine). Pre-mixing has to be calculated for the ‘worst case’ that will be seen by the engine for that fuel load. Under racing conditions, that’s wide open throttle at racing rpms. This means that at idle, the ratio may be slightly fat (rich).
ONe thing tho, Our (at least mine) RX-8's Manual did not say jack about "Synth Oil no good" kind of thing. So I will use it. Simple as that.
Oh even they do, I dont think I will listen, as what I can see , I think I said it before in another post, is that the quality of Synth oil improves EVERYDAY. Mazda never "recommened" us to Race our Engine, but hey, lets be honest here, Im sure to say 99.999997% of the Rx-8 Owners race their engine at LEAST ONCE.
I will say, believe what you want to believe, but please ASH8 dont try to convince someone to trust you unless you have some "prove"
Rotary Engines
Can Royal Purple Motor Oil be used in a rotary engine?
Yes. A rotary engine is a modified four cycle engine that recommends the use of an API licensed motor oil for street applications.
More information and FAQs on lubrication of Rotary Engines:
In a rotary engine, the oil lubricates the eccentric shaft bearings, thrust needle bearings and rotor bearings similar to a crank and rod bearing of a piston engine as well as being injected into the combustion chambers to lubricate the apex seals, corner seals, and side seals helping to create the sealing mechanism doing the equivalent job of the piston rings.
Royal Purple provides outstanding protection for the e-shaft, rotor bearings, thrust bearings and is suitable for the oil injection system as it has proven to run cleaner than other oils and is an excellent choice for rotary apex seals, corner seals, and side seals.
Mazda makes a statement in the Owner’s Manual not to use synthetic oils in a rotary engine, why do you say that it is OK?
Royal Purple has performed seal compatibility testing on the components used in a rotary with excellent results, including older rotary engine seals dating back to the Cosmo. Royal Purple’s Technical Services Manager David Canitz has been an owner and racer of rotary engine cars and has used synthetic motor oils in rotaries since 1985 with excellent results. He has been trying to find an answer to this Mazda statement for the last 18 years.
In the early development of synthetic oils decades ago, there were purportedly some seal compatibility issues. Today’s synthetic oils do not have the compatibility issues of the old oils. There is no substantiated evidence of seal compatibility issues with Royal Purple.
Here are some facts:
The Mazda Factory racing departments recommend and use ‘synthetic’ oils including the winning 1991 Leman’s 20-G 4 rotor Mazda 787B.
MazdaComp USA printed manual (now Mazdaspeed) recommends the use of synthetic oils for racing conditions.
Royal Purple Motor Oils have been used in rotary engines (both race and street) for ten plus years with excellent results.
Royal Purple Motor Oil is compatible with the bearing material, sealing elastomers, and combustion seals used in a rotary engine.
I heard that synthetic oil doesn't burn like mineral based oils and will coat the inside of the engine with deposits.
If this was a problem with synthetic motor oils in general, then all internal combustion engines using a ‘synthetic’ would experience increased deposits on internal surfaces. The opposite is actually the norm.
Conventional four cycle motor oils will typically leave deposits of carbon and ash when injected into the rotary apex seal, corner seal, and side seal areas. Royal Purple’s motor oil actually burns cleaner due to the synthetic base stock being free of contamination and many of the additives being ‘ashless’. This may not be true for all synthetics but Royal Purple has been proven to work extremely well in rotary engines.
Royal Purple’s formulation of synthetic hydrocarbon motor oil does burn at the nominal combustion temperatures experienced in both street and racing applications, whether normally aspirated, turbocharged, or supercharged. (500 – 1700° F idle to race rpms typical combustion temps)
Will the synthetic oil effect the oil seals?
No. Royal Purple’s Motor Oil is fully compatible with the elastomers found in rotary engines as well as more conventional piston engines. The oil seals, housing seals and other elastomers used in rotary engines typically consist of Buna N, Nitriles, Neoprene, or Viton materials which are also commonly found in piston engine cars.
I hear that synthetic is ‘thinner or lighter’ oil, is there a greater possibility that the oil will leak between the seals?
No. If an engine’s sealing surfaces are in good condition, synthetic oil should not cause any leakage. However, if an engine has marginal seals, there is a 50/50 chance the seals will leak less or more. A synthetic motor oil is going to have similar viscosity to that of a conventional motor oil – except at extreme temperatures. Due to a flatter viscosity curve, at low temperatures it will not thicken as much (easier winter cranking) and it does not thin out as quickly at higher operating temperatures (better oil film at higher rpm).
Should I go longer or shorter between oil changes?
Royal Purple recommends that the maximum oil drain / filter change interval listed in the Owner’s Manual be followed while under warranty (new RX8). For FA, FB, FC, FC Turbos, and FD rotaries, extending drain intervals from two to five fold is possible if desired. Since the rotary engine injects oil through the use of a metered oil pump, either adding oil into the carb base plate air / fuel mixture or directly injecting oil into the rotor housing, rotary engines will consume oil of one quart per 1000 – 3000 miles. It is important to maintain the proper crankcase oil level in your rotary engine if you decide to extend oil drain intervals.
If I pre-mix my fuel for the rotary engine, do I use the same ratio as with mineral based oils? Does it burn at the same rate?
In an ideal world, the rotary engine metered oil pump should inject an ashless oil designed to burn in the combustion chamber and use a four cycle oil in the crankcase for the eccentric shaft, rotor bearings, and thrust bearings. For the street, Mazda simplified the OE system to use just one oil, that being a typical four cycle oil for both the e-shaft as well as the combustion chamber. Royal Purple recommends using our standard TCW III 2 Cycle Oil if the metered oil pump is still enabled. The two cycle oil being added to the fuel tank is in addition to what Mazda designed to inject and acts as a supplement or insurance. Depending on which engine, the level of modifications (street port, Bridgeport, peripheral port, nitrous, turbocharged) and application, the typical mix ratio could vary from 200:1 to 800:1.
For a pure racing application where the metered oil pump has been disabled or removed, again based on the actual engine and modification level, the ratio could vary from 150:1 to 600:1. For this application, we recommend our Racing 2 Cycle TCW III product or the standard 2 Cycle TCW III can also be used.
A stock FD twin turbo 13B with the MOP oil injection system can typically use about one quart per 1500 miles under hard street driving. If this vehicle is getting 15 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio is 400:1. If the oil consumption on this vehicle reduces to 1 quart per 2500 miles and fuel efficiency increases to 20 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio increases to 600:1. The stock metering oil pump is a great system as it varies with throttle position (load on the engine). Pre-mixing has to be calculated for the ‘worst case’ that will be seen by the engine for that fuel load. Under racing conditions, that’s wide open throttle at racing rpms. This means that at idle, the ratio may be slightly fat (rich).
ONe thing tho, Our (at least mine) RX-8's Manual did not say jack about "Synth Oil no good" kind of thing. So I will use it. Simple as that.
Oh even they do, I dont think I will listen, as what I can see , I think I said it before in another post, is that the quality of Synth oil improves EVERYDAY. Mazda never "recommened" us to Race our Engine, but hey, lets be honest here, Im sure to say 99.999997% of the Rx-8 Owners race their engine at LEAST ONCE.
I will say, believe what you want to believe, but please ASH8 dont try to convince someone to trust you unless you have some "prove"
And if you think you know more than the manufacturer and what is best ..well good for you.
The oil debate will continue, here is a link to another site with another "experts"
opinion on Synthetics, and when is a synthetic not a synthetic?, or just highly
refined mineral oil with a 'synthetic' lable.
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forum...=Synthetic+oil
Last edited by ASH8; 09-10-2005 at 07:46 AM.
09-10-2005 | 09:16 AM
#103
I dont think I "alter" or "abuse" my 8 in ANYWAY by putting Synthenic oil to it, because like I said before, I read my 8's Owner's Manual like 200 times and it did NOT mention a WORD about "Synthenic Oil Not good for the Renesis"
This is why its funny, when someone's engine has problems, they all just , for some reason, "forgot" that they abused the engine everyday by sudden full throttle/hard stop, overrev it like 200 times , etc etc. Instead of blaming on their own
First thing they come to mind would be "oh, it must be the oil that fuxked my engine up"
Its just like 99.999997 % of the Windows user today who just blame "Man, Microsoft Windows fuxking suuuucccKKKKsss, I never get spyware if Im using Linux or Mac OS X!!!"
Well they just forgot that, they never update its windows and, they dont even know how to load Linux / Work under OSX. and no one really makes spyware/backdoor for those platform cuz ppl hardly use it.
Thank you, I hope I explain it all.
This is why its funny, when someone's engine has problems, they all just , for some reason, "forgot" that they abused the engine everyday by sudden full throttle/hard stop, overrev it like 200 times , etc etc. Instead of blaming on their own
First thing they come to mind would be "oh, it must be the oil that fuxked my engine up"
Its just like 99.999997 % of the Windows user today who just blame "Man, Microsoft Windows fuxking suuuucccKKKKsss, I never get spyware if Im using Linux or Mac OS X!!!"
Well they just forgot that, they never update its windows and, they dont even know how to load Linux / Work under OSX. and no one really makes spyware/backdoor for those platform cuz ppl hardly use it.
Thank you, I hope I explain it all.
09-10-2005 | 12:06 PM
#104
Thread Starter
Registered
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 9,134
Likes: 25
From: Houston
I do have to throw out that if synthetics shouldn't be used, and that there are many synthetics out there that aren't really synthetic, then that would mean they are actually OK to use because you are actually using conventional!
09-10-2005 | 08:28 PM
#106
Super Moderator
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,869
Likes: 327
From: Australia
Originally Posted by nycgps
I dont think I "alter" or "abuse" my 8 in ANYWAY by putting Synthenic oil to it, because like I said before, I read my 8's Owner's Manual like 200 times and it did NOT mention a WORD about "Synthenic Oil Not good for the Renesis"
This is why its funny, when someone's engine has problems, they all just , for some reason, "forgot" that they abused the engine everyday by sudden full throttle/hard stop, overrev it like 200 times , etc etc. Instead of blaming on their own
First thing they come to mind would be "oh, it must be the oil that fuxked my engine up"
Its just like 99.999997 % of the Windows user today who just blame "Man, Microsoft Windows fuxking suuuucccKKKKsss, I never get spyware if Im using Linux or Mac OS X!!!"
Well they just forgot that, they never update its windows and, they dont even know how to load Linux / Work under OSX. and no one really makes spyware/backdoor for those platform cuz ppl hardly use it.
Thank you, I hope I explain it all.
This is why its funny, when someone's engine has problems, they all just , for some reason, "forgot" that they abused the engine everyday by sudden full throttle/hard stop, overrev it like 200 times , etc etc. Instead of blaming on their own
First thing they come to mind would be "oh, it must be the oil that fuxked my engine up"
Its just like 99.999997 % of the Windows user today who just blame "Man, Microsoft Windows fuxking suuuucccKKKKsss, I never get spyware if Im using Linux or Mac OS X!!!"
Well they just forgot that, they never update its windows and, they dont even know how to load Linux / Work under OSX. and no one really makes spyware/backdoor for those platform cuz ppl hardly use it.
Thank you, I hope I explain it all.
My referral to any warranty "Void" issues were mainly to the alterations or mods you do to your car and where or how you drive it. ie, brakes and clutches are not covered as they are wear and tear items. Sorry for the confusion.
The oil debate.
As a guy from Mazda UK (in the link above) the RENISIS engine was developed using mineral base oils.
The main reason for this is quite obvious, the "world market" (outside USA) availability for engine oils is still mineral not synthetic.
When I worked at Mazda retail and wholesale in the 70s,80,90s, the question was always asked by sales representatives marketing their product in a "tube/can/box", why will Mazda not authorise it use, etc.
The main reason is the "management" and testing of these additives or products, the hundreds of different brands and names available around the world, having to analyse and test them all to recommend the use on Mazda cars, let alone verifying the so called beneficial claims made by these products.
Extend that to paint treatment and polishes and creams....it would be a nightmare to manage.
That is why Mazda Japan and most manufacturers are very conservative and will not endorse them.
BTW. I can also add, that just because your owners manual does not say you can not use a product, does not mean that you can?...and the reverse applies in ANY debate if you want to make a point.
Cheers
Last edited by ASH8; 09-10-2005 at 08:54 PM.
09-10-2005 | 08:28 PM
#107
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
I'm still new to the rotary (have stuck to Toyota's 2JZGTE), so I'm very worried about reliability (you know the stories). I'vem poured over info regarding this issue and I'm still undecided. I'd prefer to run a synthetic, but if there's the least bit chance of ash, plastic residue, or the artificial sand clogging up and sticking the internal seals, I'd stay away.
I've found cases of rotaries lasting beyond 200k on mineral based oils as long as the car was properly maintained. So why spend more per quart on something as questionable as reliability?
If I were hell bent on running a synthetic in my RX8 (and I could be
), I'd run with Idemitsu Synthetic Rotary Engine Oil. Seems they've been making synthetics especially for rotaries for many years. Supposedly, their synthetic has the necessary CLEAN burn characteristic required of oils used in rotary engines.
Just my newbie 2 cents
I've found cases of rotaries lasting beyond 200k on mineral based oils as long as the car was properly maintained. So why spend more per quart on something as questionable as reliability?
If I were hell bent on running a synthetic in my RX8 (and I could be
), I'd run with Idemitsu Synthetic Rotary Engine Oil. Seems they've been making synthetics especially for rotaries for many years. Supposedly, their synthetic has the necessary CLEAN burn characteristic required of oils used in rotary engines.Just my newbie 2 cents
09-10-2005 | 08:53 PM
#108
Thread Starter
Registered
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 9,134
Likes: 25
From: Houston
Do NOT use the Idemitsu in a street car!!! It is a racing oil only. Racing oils are forumulated to provide very good lubrication and exceed those in typical non race oils but do not resist long term breakdown. In a race car this doesn't matter as the race isn't long enough to break an oil down. This isn't the case obviously in a street car. It's not an oil made to go several thousand miles. It's made to go several hundred. It's a great oil but you'd be changing it constantly.
09-10-2005 | 10:11 PM
#109
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 522
Likes: 0
From: Visalia, CA
I was looking at Royal Purple's website and notice the following:
"Royal Purple® Motor Oils are compatible with other mineral and synthetic motor oils."
Would there be any benifit to mixxing mineral and synthetic?
"Royal Purple® Motor Oils are compatible with other mineral and synthetic motor oils."
Would there be any benifit to mixxing mineral and synthetic?
09-10-2005 | 10:56 PM
#110
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 31
Likes: 1
From: Florida
There are literally dozens of threads over at BITOG dealing with oil mixing. If you want to experiment, I suggest you check them out. Here is only one: http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...=001478#000000
The end result might not be what you expect. There may be some additive clash. The best advice is to not do it, but if you do decide to mix, do a VOA (virgin oil analysis), and then a UOA (used oil analysis) to make sure the oil mix performance is OK. Some suggest to stay within a single product line to limit bad mixes (like mixing two types of Motorcraft together).
The end result might not be what you expect. There may be some additive clash. The best advice is to not do it, but if you do decide to mix, do a VOA (virgin oil analysis), and then a UOA (used oil analysis) to make sure the oil mix performance is OK. Some suggest to stay within a single product line to limit bad mixes (like mixing two types of Motorcraft together).
09-10-2005 | 11:14 PM
#111
Originally Posted by ASH8
BTW. I can also add, that just because your owners manual does not say you can not use a product, does not mean that you can?...and the reverse applies in ANY debate if you want to make a point.
and I think Im following Mazda's guidelines on this one, the oil I use are way above the standard they need. and I think Im doing much better than their guideline, I change my oil around every 1500 Miles.
While I agree with you that Theres no way for Mazda to test every single Synth oil out there in the world, but that still doesnt mean that "its no good for rotaries"
Many, well, I should say "ALOT" of people have been using Synth for their Rotaries and I bet, some of them switch from Mineral Oil to Synth and never went back.
I guess time already told us, for example, RG used Synth oil for 7 years. Nothing happen.
RB, and alot of other companies, nothing happen.
So I guess that explains it all.
Just stick it to what you want to believe, Dont push it to the others.
RG just wanted to tell ppl about his own personal experience with Synth Oil. Yes Im a 2-3 months old Rotary owner, but Im with RG for this one.
Last edited by nycgps; 09-10-2005 at 11:18 PM.
09-11-2005 | 02:26 PM
#112
Registered User
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 608
Likes: 0
From: atlanta ga
AMEN!!!
Also, again Mazda had the opportunity to make a statement for or against synthetics in their manuals. They listed what the requirements are and that's it.
Any oil meeting those standards is alright. You can sift through the other opinions after that and see what suits you. It's really that simple.
Also, again Mazda had the opportunity to make a statement for or against synthetics in their manuals. They listed what the requirements are and that's it.
Any oil meeting those standards is alright. You can sift through the other opinions after that and see what suits you. It's really that simple.
09-11-2005 | 10:38 PM
#113
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by rotarygod
Do NOT use the Idemitsu in a street car!!! It is a racing oil only. ....It's made to go several hundred. It's a great oil but you'd be changing it constantly.
Also, I found this interesting:
http://www.royalpurple.com/techa/faqsa.html#re2
I actually use RP in my other cars (Supra T88, SC300 TT, IS300, RX330) and love it. I would like to use it in my RX8, and may eventually. Once again, I'm new to the rotary and I'm bent on learning the ins-and-outs/dos-and-dont's with this car.
I've always loved the rotary concept... more or equal from less!! I'd like for the rotary to get better and actually become more popular if possible. This is my reason for finally owning one
Last edited by Genyosai; 09-11-2005 at 10:57 PM.
09-11-2005 | 11:18 PM
#114
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,080
Likes: 0
From: South Florida
Aside from the fact that this is a faulty line of reasoning to begin with (the manual makes no attempt to exhaustively list the specific brands or chemical makeup of gasolines, waxes, car wash detergents or blinker fluids 
so why should it be expected to do so for oils) it is even less applicable to the oil debate. The manual does in fact state the requirements that need to be met for oil, and Royal Purple, Redline and any number of other synthetic oils meet those requirements.
so why should it be expected to do so for oils) it is even less applicable to the oil debate. The manual does in fact state the requirements that need to be met for oil, and Royal Purple, Redline and any number of other synthetic oils meet those requirements.
Originally Posted by ASH8
BTW. I can also add, that just because your owners manual does not say you can not use a product, does not mean that you can?...and the reverse applies in ANY debate if you want to make a point.
Cheers
Cheers
09-12-2005 | 09:54 AM
#115
Lubricious
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,425
Likes: 4
From: SF Bay Area, California
Originally Posted by ASH8
BTW. I can also add, that just because your owners manual does not say you can not use a product, does not mean that you can?
09-12-2005 | 09:42 PM
#116
Super Moderator
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,869
Likes: 327
From: Australia
Originally Posted by nycgps
Yeah it didnt say anything about the Synth good or not, but does that mean that I cannot use it??
and I think Im following Mazda's guidelines on this one, the oil I use are way above the standard they need. and I think Im doing much better than their guideline, I change my oil around every 1500 Miles.
While I agree with you that Theres no way for Mazda to test every single Synth oil out there in the world, but that still doesnt mean that "its no good for rotaries"
Many, well, I should say "ALOT" of people have been using Synth for their Rotaries and I bet, some of them switch from Mineral Oil to Synth and never went back.
I guess time already told us, for example, RG used Synth oil for 7 years. Nothing happen.
RB, and alot of other companies, nothing happen.
So I guess that explains it all.
Just stick it to what you want to believe, Dont push it to the others.
RG just wanted to tell ppl about his own personal experience with Synth Oil. Yes Im a 2-3 months old Rotary owner, but Im with RG for this one.
and I think Im following Mazda's guidelines on this one, the oil I use are way above the standard they need. and I think Im doing much better than their guideline, I change my oil around every 1500 Miles.
While I agree with you that Theres no way for Mazda to test every single Synth oil out there in the world, but that still doesnt mean that "its no good for rotaries"
Many, well, I should say "ALOT" of people have been using Synth for their Rotaries and I bet, some of them switch from Mineral Oil to Synth and never went back.
I guess time already told us, for example, RG used Synth oil for 7 years. Nothing happen.
RB, and alot of other companies, nothing happen.
So I guess that explains it all.
Just stick it to what you want to believe, Dont push it to the others.
RG just wanted to tell ppl about his own personal experience with Synth Oil. Yes Im a 2-3 months old Rotary owner, but Im with RG for this one.
Excuse me, I am not pushing anything onto anyone, I am free to air my views and experiences also, and that does not have to be backed up by "data", as I have said before the figures game can be made to look which ever way a tester or manufacturer wants them to be or say...as you said before about the Royal P info.
I really wonder just how much "synthetic oil" is actually used in these products or just highly refined mineral, particularly the 5w30 oils are said to be highly refined minerals with a sythetic lable, according to one weblink it is actually legal in the US to claim these oils as synthetics.
RG and others have had great results with the oil they use, which is fine.
Are the benifits of using an expensive oil there when owners are changing their oils at 1500 miles.
Many in these forums say "when I changed (renewed) my engine oil with (this brand) my 8 runs smoother, I suggest this will occur whenever you renew your sump oil with any brand.
Mazda Japan still do not endorse the use of "fully" synthetic oils for owners of the RX-8 (rotary) for normal everyday driving.
The US as far as I know are still the only country that has replaced engines in the 8 due to thermal damage. ..why?
Is it oil related, or heat, or the combination of both.
What type and even brand of oil was used?
What was the milage between oil changes.
How far had these engine travelled and their age?
How was the 8 used, highway use, long stop start?
I would be interesting to know this information as the US is not the only country that has had summer heatwaves since the 2 years of the Rx-8 release.
Does anyone know the history of the 8s who have had engines renewed?
Cheers
09-12-2005 | 11:07 PM
#117
Shifty Bastard.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,835
Likes: 0
From: Melbourne, Australia.
Magic Mazda in Vegas use Havoline 5w-20 oil for their oil changes. They have a large number of RX-8's on the back lot waiting for engines (more than anyone). Havoline don't sell a synthetic 5w-20.
09-12-2005 | 11:11 PM
#118
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
I've been changing my oil myself every 1k since the early '80s on every vehicle I have owned. (hey, oil is cheap, even at 6 bucks a quart). Was running Castrol 5W-20 in my 8 until the recent multiple engine failures in Nevada-have switched to RP. I did notice an immediate improvement in the smoothness of the motor(I had about 600 miles on the previous Castrol oil). As far as why the 8 has failed in the USA it seems clear to me. The majority of the failures were in the peak summer temp months of June - August. How many places in the world ,where significant quantities of RX-8 have been sold,does the temperature exceed 115 deg F? Phoenix? USA and several engine failures there. Houston? Ditto. What about Japan and Europe? Gee , not USA and the temp rarely exceeds upper 90s. Northern Africa? Brazil? Mexico? Not many 8s sold there. To even suggest these failures may be due to USA synth oil use is beyond stupid. Hmmm....it's no secret that Mazda has been struggling financially for over a decade now. Could it be Mazda decided to extropolate the data they already had and forego Sahara temp testing to save money? Its clear they did not do adequate high temp testing on this vehicle and now risk losing consumer confidence in the rotary.(remember the FD was notoriously unreliable and was prompltly pulled from our market). As far as the benefits of very frequent oil changes, use your fingers and eyes. Oil at 1k looks nearly new-clear and viscous. At 3k it shows some contamination and is not so viscous. AT 5k it basically looks and feels like black ink. No oil test could possibly convince any rational person that 5k oil is as effective as 1k oil! My engines never wear out-even after 20 years of daily use. As far as my Renesis motor? Time will tell! I'll be using RP and will continue my 1k oil changes til I blow it up, or drop dead(Ha!)...
09-13-2005 | 12:30 AM
#119
Lubricious
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,425
Likes: 4
From: SF Bay Area, California
Originally Posted by runningnorthRX-8
Oil at 1k looks nearly new-clear and viscous. At 3k it shows some contamination and is not so viscous. AT 5k it basically looks and feels like black ink. No oil test could possibly convince any rational person that 5k oil is as effective as 1k oil!
09-13-2005 | 06:17 AM
#120
Originally Posted by ASH8
Excuse me, I am not pushing anything onto anyone, I am free to air my views and experiences also, and that does not have to be backed up by "data", as I have said before the figures game can be made to look which ever way a tester or manufacturer wants them to be or say...as you said before about the Royal P info.
I really wonder just how much "synthetic oil" is actually used in these products or just highly refined mineral, particularly the 5w30 oils are said to be highly refined minerals with a sythetic lable, according to one weblink it is actually legal in the US to claim these oils as synthetics.
RG and others have had great results with the oil they use, which is fine.
Are the benifits of using an expensive oil there when owners are changing their oils at 1500 miles.
Many in these forums say "when I changed (renewed) my engine oil with (this brand) my 8 runs smoother, I suggest this will occur whenever you renew your sump oil with any brand.
Mazda Japan still do not endorse the use of "fully" synthetic oils for owners of the RX-8 (rotary) for normal everyday driving.
The US as far as I know are still the only country that has replaced engines in the 8 due to thermal damage. ..why?
Is it oil related, or heat, or the combination of both.
What type and even brand of oil was used?
What was the milage between oil changes.
How far had these engine travelled and their age?
How was the 8 used, highway use, long stop start?
I would be interesting to know this information as the US is not the only country that has had summer heatwaves since the 2 years of the Rx-8 release.
Does anyone know the history of the 8s who have had engines renewed?
Cheers
I really wonder just how much "synthetic oil" is actually used in these products or just highly refined mineral, particularly the 5w30 oils are said to be highly refined minerals with a sythetic lable, according to one weblink it is actually legal in the US to claim these oils as synthetics.
RG and others have had great results with the oil they use, which is fine.
Are the benifits of using an expensive oil there when owners are changing their oils at 1500 miles.
Many in these forums say "when I changed (renewed) my engine oil with (this brand) my 8 runs smoother, I suggest this will occur whenever you renew your sump oil with any brand.
Mazda Japan still do not endorse the use of "fully" synthetic oils for owners of the RX-8 (rotary) for normal everyday driving.
The US as far as I know are still the only country that has replaced engines in the 8 due to thermal damage. ..why?
Is it oil related, or heat, or the combination of both.
What type and even brand of oil was used?
What was the milage between oil changes.
How far had these engine travelled and their age?
How was the 8 used, highway use, long stop start?
I would be interesting to know this information as the US is not the only country that has had summer heatwaves since the 2 years of the Rx-8 release.
Does anyone know the history of the 8s who have had engines renewed?
Cheers
B : No, You should not use Full Synth Oil because Mazda dont recommend it.
A : But I've been using it for years and my engine still roar like new.
B : I dont care. Full Synth might be bad because Mazda dont recommend it.
A : Maybe in the past but, in my 8 Manual it just said as long my oil can pass those standard Im ok, didnt say I cant use Synth Oil
B : I dont care. Full Synth might be bad because Mazda dont recommend it.
A : Even the 8's manual didnt mention a word about "Synth oil no good" or whatsoever ?
B : I dont care. Full Synth might be bad because Mazda dont recommend it. You should stop using it too.
A : Im happy with my oil and I will stick to it.
B : I dont care. Full Synth might be bad because Mazda dont recommend it. I dont care how many years you've been using it, and I dont care how many companies out there use it in their rotaries. I just wont use it until Mazda says "Yes you can use it". I dont care even if the Synth oil pass the Standard like 20 folds, just becaue mazda did not mention a word in their manual about Synth, I will not use it.
C : .............. (was listening the whole time) Hey guess what, My Father's Now 10 Year Old Nissan Quest's users Manual did not say anything about Synth oil. and my father have been using Full Synth Oil for his mini-van for the past 10 years. Yeah its not rotary, but hey it didnt say anything about Synth oil either. Oh no my car might blow up one day just because we are using Synth Oil in it. Maybe I should get myself some life insurance just incase my father's mini-van blows up.
Thank you.
Last edited by nycgps; 09-13-2005 at 05:38 PM.
09-13-2005 | 10:13 AM
#121
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 839
Likes: 2
ASH8,
The mazda entities are all very seperate. Just look at the discussions between canadian and US owners. Oversea's markets are far less forthcoming on issues then US owners and dealers.
For all we know there could be a good # of failures across the world...we just don't have the data.
And so far in every instance of failure, the individual was using minerial based oil. (That we have record of)
Nubo,
You can also do an inexpensive individual UOA through local labs.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com
I highly recommend the dyson analysis package.
The mazda entities are all very seperate. Just look at the discussions between canadian and US owners. Oversea's markets are far less forthcoming on issues then US owners and dealers.
For all we know there could be a good # of failures across the world...we just don't have the data.
And so far in every instance of failure, the individual was using minerial based oil. (That we have record of)
Nubo,
You can also do an inexpensive individual UOA through local labs.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com
I highly recommend the dyson analysis package.
09-13-2005 | 12:55 PM
#122
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Nubo, sure, the fleet operators have a rational reason to use the oil analysis for costs savings-they need to maximize their return-still doesn't mean in any way 5k is oil is as effective as 1k oil. I work for the largest trucking operation in North America, and we do an oil analysis on a specified percentage of our trucks quarterly. We save millions by extending our service interval as far as possible.(currently it is at 30k for oil replacement). After all, we do lease these trucks and turn them in 500k. These are then auctioned to the dealers for the highest bid, which are then sold to the small operators. I would NEVER purchase one these vehicles for my own fleet, knowing intimately how they are maintained. The motors are well worn at this mileage with this regimen, burning significant oil, with the resulting power and fuel mileage decrease. Its all a matter of money to the fleet operators, which is good for business. But for my personal cars, I'll get under there and change the oil frequently-its cheap peace of mind knowing at 300k my motor stilll has great compression and smooth bearings...
09-13-2005 | 03:52 PM
#123
Lubricious
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,425
Likes: 4
From: SF Bay Area, California
Originally Posted by crossbow
ASH8,
The mazda entities are all very seperate. Just look at the discussions between canadian and US owners. Oversea's markets are far less forthcoming on issues then US owners and dealers.
For all we know there could be a good # of failures across the world...we just don't have the data.
And so far in every instance of failure, the individual was using minerial based oil. (That we have record of)
Nubo,
You can also do an inexpensive individual UOA through local labs.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com
I highly recommend the dyson analysis package.
The mazda entities are all very seperate. Just look at the discussions between canadian and US owners. Oversea's markets are far less forthcoming on issues then US owners and dealers.
For all we know there could be a good # of failures across the world...we just don't have the data.
And so far in every instance of failure, the individual was using minerial based oil. (That we have record of)
Nubo,
You can also do an inexpensive individual UOA through local labs.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com
I highly recommend the dyson analysis package.
09-13-2005 | 05:52 PM
#124
I am convinced. I am switching to royal purple 5/20. I have been using the castrol gtx without any problems but I am convinced that the royal purple is a better food for my engine. One thought i keep having. Our engine in one way is like a 2 cycle engine. Oil is injected into the combustion chamber for lubrication purposes. Now over all the years of 2 cycle high performace that many have experience have they ever put a regular mineral oil into that 2 cycle engines gas? I dont think so. We all know the reasons why. So it just doesnt make any sense to do it here. Mazda doesnt say in the owners book not to use synthetic. So I pre mix my gas at a very low mixture of about 300-400/1 (unless I am on the track) with a high performace yamaha 2 cycle racing synthetic oil one oz every 8 gals of gas. And this week i am switching to the RP brand. (soon as I find it everyone in this area only stocks th 5-30 wgt.
enough said.
Olddragger
enough said.
Olddragger
09-13-2005 | 07:11 PM
#125
Super Moderator
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,869
Likes: 327
From: Australia
Originally Posted by crossbow
ASH8,
The mazda entities are all very seperate. Just look at the discussions between canadian and US owners. Oversea's markets are far less forthcoming on issues then US owners and dealers.
For all we know there could be a good # of failures across the world...we just don't have the data.
And so far in every instance of failure, the individual was using minerial based oil. (That we have record of)
Nubo,
You can also do an inexpensive individual UOA through local labs.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com
I highly recommend the dyson analysis package.
The mazda entities are all very seperate. Just look at the discussions between canadian and US owners. Oversea's markets are far less forthcoming on issues then US owners and dealers.
For all we know there could be a good # of failures across the world...we just don't have the data.
And so far in every instance of failure, the individual was using minerial based oil. (That we have record of)
Nubo,
You can also do an inexpensive individual UOA through local labs.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com
I highly recommend the dyson analysis package.
Yes, I have looked at other forums too, I think owners would say something if their engines failed in a forum...I know I dam would..
Crossbow, you said that you have a record of the 8s who have had engine failures...can I view them?, or, is the link in these forums..
Cheers
Ash ( I am not the enemy here
)