RX8PDX

I dont understand how they cant know the long term effects.

You get an engine, they have many, you mount on stand and hook up all electronics, attach a very large gas tank, and let the damn thing run.

Put synthetic oil in 1 engine, dyno in the other, and see which fails first.

Another interesting question I have, one of the AUS guys said Mazda doesnt recommend Ethonal 10%, yet most gas in my area has it.

I woulda thought the Renesis would like Ethonal since it has a higher octane. I was wondering if it was E85 compatible, but I guess not.

sco

Which aussie guy? According to Mazda's Australian site, 10% ethanol is OK in an RX-8
http://www.mazda.com.au/articleZone5...oneID=3508#rx8

bluemunkey1820

Oh well, I called swepco today and asked them about running their products in my car and they told me that lots of rotarys are running it. It is not a synthetic but a high grade natural oil, good stuff and instead of just changin the stuff you send it away to be analysed at the cost of swepco. So I'm going to order the stuff and I will keep you posted on how it effects my 8, also here is a link to the product page. http://www.swepcousa.com/ I don't have the dino slips, but I have heard of 5 to 35 hp gained just running this stuff in the gear box, the motor, and the rear end.

rkostolni

Well I'm sold on Synthetic, I am now debating which brand I want to use. Its either going to be redline, RP, or valvoline. RG, why do you prefer RP so much and do you think redline is basically just as good?

brillo

One of RP's lead development engineers use to race RX7's so they have alot of familarity with rotaries. In addition, they are also a Houston company, so I support them for that reason also. I consider redline just as good, I have used there products in other cars, redline is also a bit bigger company, so it might be more readily available. Amsoil is also suppose to be really good, but I've never used them. I consider only RP, RL and Amsoil to be "true" synthetics, everything else is below them.

My advice, go with a Wix filter and RP if you can get it (this iis what I use). If not, then Redline would be my backup. I change my oil and filter every 6K unless I track the car.

rotarygod

I use RP quite simply because it is easy for me to find and have proven itself to work good in the rotary. The fact that it is here in Houston is a bonus. Amsoil works good too as Racing Beat has had a long history with it as well. I've heard nothing but good things about Redline but have never used it. It's not easy to find without ordering it or going out of my way to find it. For RP I just go up to the corner auto parts store.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

I changed my oil to Royal Purple last week and I have to say its really great.

I cant say for sure but for some reason its really *feeling* smoother.

5w20 Fully Synth. Engine Oil

75w90 for Tranny and Rear Diff.

MadDog

^ I have had the same feeling since switching over to RP 5W20 several weeks ago. It could be all in my head, but I swear, idle is much smoother now. Also, when I "cruise" over 6k RPM things are much smoother, too.


-MD

RotaryJeff

Here's my experience,

After much investigating, I decided to switch to RP. I was going to do it myself, but didn't have time, so decided to bring the oil in with the car, and let my Mazda Service Department do it.

At first, they were hesitant, but then we reviewed the Owners Manual together, and verified that my oil met the API and weight requirements. As we all know, nowhere in the Owner's Manual does it prohibit synthetic oil. But, I asked them to call Mazda and ask if synthetic oil will void a warranty. They did, and the answer was no.
Repeat, the answer was no.

They did hand me a service sheet, with a note on the bottom saying that Mazda does not recommend synthetic. But not recommending is not the same as prohibiting, for warranty purposes. For instance, they also recommend that you do all your oil changes at a Authorized Mazda dealer. But doing it yourself or at some quick-lube place is not prohibited for warranty purposes, as long as you keep your receipts.

Bottom line: it meets owners manual requirements, and will not void any warranty. I'm going to try it for 10-15K miles, and see how it does. If I don't notice a benefit, I can always go back to the cheaper Castrol. Or not.

Plenty of warranty left to go, either way.

Jeff

RotoRocket

iTrader: (1)

This is the one issue that probably bothers me most about Mazda's manual and recommendations dealing with any rotary engine issue.

I'd rather just have them say "Using synthetic oil is strictly prohibited" rather than have them say "Using synthetic oil is not recommended."

That'd make it easier for me to completely reject the notion of using synthetic oil, including Royal Purple, due to my concerns about voiding the warranty, despite the additional protection and other benefits synthetic oil may offer compared to conventional motor oil.

Arggghhhh.

Edit #1 -

This is from Mobil's website, and is Mobil's response to the use of synthetic oil in the Mazda rotary motor:

Mobil 1 with SuperSyn Technology will not void new car warranties, with the exception of the Mazda rotary engine (Mazda does not recommend any synthetic motor oil). Mobil 1 exceeds the API and ILSAC motor oil service requirements for all new vehicles, both import and domestic. If in doubt, always check your vehicle owner's manual or contact your vehicle's manufacturer.

rotarygod

I took a trip out to Royal Purple last week. They are here in Houston. Pretty cool experience and I have much more respect for their product now that I see how careful they are. None of their pumps come into direct contact with their fluids. They use only pneumatic diaphragm pumps so there is no moving parts in contact with the oil to contaminate it. All of their lines are stainless steel and each line is only used for one particular material. They don't even use steel drums such as the popular 55 gallon oil drums like their competition does. They only use plastic ones as the small amount of airspace at the top can typically condense on the walls and they don't want even a small amount of rust to develop and contaminate their product. They won't even reuse a container to avoid possible contamination. Each one is used once and then sent off to a recycler. They take their oil seriously and this is evident by the fact that their biggest clients are Shell oil as well as a couple of other oil companies!!! Guess what they use in much of their machinery! Interesting! Remember they make more industrial grade lubricants than anything. They even have food grade lubricants that you could technically eat although I'm not sure you want to. I wonder if it's grape or blackberry flavored to match the color? They are also the standard fluids used in the Pagini Zonda as well as the Koeniggsegg. Ferrari does use RP in the gear boxes of the Modena although they recommend a "special" oil formulated by Shell for everything else. When you realize that Shell oil gives over $125 million a year to Ferrari to support Michael Schumacher and their F1 team, you can see why they recommend their product. It's all money based.

I spoke to David Canitz at RP. He has been racing rotaries for years and still has his RX-3 and RX-7's that he ran in GT-3. He's used synthetics for 20+ years in rotaries so he is a very good person to talk to as he has a vested interest. I did mention to him what I was told at Sevenstock by Yamamoto about certain synthetics such as Mobil 1 not mixing well with fuel. He thought this funny as he said all oils synthetic or otherwise from every maker out there will mix well with fuel. This was verified in a small experiment I performed. He said it is more likely that the Japanese do not want to admit when they are wrong and need some way to justify their position. He has known many racers who have used Mobil 1 synthetic for years in rotaries with no issues so he knows this explanation to not be accurate. He did concede that he doesn't know exactly which oils were tested, how long ago the tests were performed, or if they were the same forumulations available over here but he did say any oils sold in the U.S. will work just fine in a rotary. He isn't one to bash the competition. As with Ferrari, most oil recommendations from car manufacturers are money based from who gives them the most. Mercedes also falls into this catagory. Goo look at who they recommend and then look at how much money that company gives them each year. There is alot that goes on under the table between oil companies and auto manufacturers.

Just to give you guys an idea of what different oils out there are grouped as, there are 5 classes. Groups I-III are what we commonly think of as conventional oils although some Group III's have been classified as "synthetic" due to their level of filtering. These oils can contain anywhere from 10-30% contaminants in their base stock! Yikes! These contaminants can do everything from affect how well the oil lubricates to how easily it breaks down. Each successive group does a little better job of filtering the base stock. Do you really want a lesser refined and less complex oil when your car depends on it to live?

Group I oils contain >.03% sulfur and/or, 90 saturates (not getting into those here). The Viscosity Index (V.I.) is anywhere from 80-119. Don't worry about what this means to the final oil. Higher is better in this case.

Group II oils contain <_ .03% Sulfur and >_90 saturates and also have a V.I of 80-119.

Group III oils contain <_ .03% Sulfur and >_90 saturates but have a V.I. of >_ 120.

You can see how each one improves over the previous one.

Groupl IV and V oils are the "synthetics". Group V isn't necessarily better than IV or vice versa. Their classification comes from what their base stock is. As we have seen, Groups I-III just have better filtered base stocks to determine what group they are in. Group IV is different. These are Polyalphaolefins (POA's). Groups I-III are paraffin mineral oils. I'm going to skip what really makes them different and just get down to specifics.

Group IV and V oils have NO sulfur at all and their viscosity index is well above 140. They are a much more pure base stock that resist high temperatures much better. That doesn't look like a bad oil to use to me. It looks much better!

Group V oils are just base oils that are not POA's or paraffin based. These include all the rest to get to the point. Amsoil and Redline fit in this catagory whereas RP is a Group IV.

There are endless numbers of papers written on oil differences but getting to the point all oils contain products of the oil industry so nothing is truly synthetic. It's all in how well it is refined and which aspects of the oil industry are used and when. All oils contain additives that make them what they are and let them do their job. The purity of the base oil is where the biggest differences are. Why skimp? The better they are, the better they can do their job. What matters more, what it's technically made out of or how well it works?

I will deal with one issue that still comes up from time to time about synthetics. This involves seal swelling/shrinking. In the early days this was found to be a disadvantage of POA's. Time for some big words. However it was quickly discovered that anywhere from 5-20% of a diester or polol ester could overcome this problem. Today the base alpha olefins are polymerized directly with methyacrylic acid which builds in this function directly into the base POA. No more seal swelling/shrinking issues. Don't worry about it. Those little guys in the white lab coats with the test tubes took care of it.

Without resorting to writing an entire book on the subject, hopefully you are a little smarter when it comes to oils and will realize how silly the arguments are against a higher grade of oil. That's all they are in the end, a better more refined oil. Half of these arguments are money based (bribery) so take auto manufacturer recommendations as you will. You should also be laughing at the people who are so adamant about using a less refined and inferior oil to protect your engine. Let them use what they want but I like my engine.

One thing slightly off topic is that Ford motor company only recommends 5W20 oils in all their cars in the U.S. This is due to the fact that a slightly thinner oil is known to slightly improve economy. Even tenths of a mpg or tenths on an emissions test make a difference to them and every little bit counts. The U.S. is more strict than the rest of the world when it comes to little things like this (strangely enough) which is why you'll still see 30 weight (5w30) oils everywhere else and 20 weights here. Since Ford has a controlling share of Mazda, you will only see 5W20 recommended in all their cars here as opposed to the rest of the world. Remember the top number is what viscosity your oil is at during operating temperatures. I know for a fact that the 700 hp 787B 4 rotor engine ran a 30 weight oil in races. That shouldn't make you feel too bad about using a 20 weight oil in an engine with 1/3 the power or abuse being inflicted on it. Also don't listen to the people that say a 30 weight oil just breaks down to a 20 weight over time. that's a crappy oil if it breaks down like that and you should use something else. Also, if you ever need to use an additive to your oil such as Lucas or STP, consider using a better oil instead.

Gerael

Nice post... seriously yer making me want royal purple.. what grade would you recommend then?

rotarygod

5W20 or 5W30. Take your pick. Both are fine. In truth any weight will be fine. Even 0W30 is still a 30 weight oil at temperature.

Royal Purple as with many other companies has different types of oils. Unlike many other companies, RP's "race" oil is a full detergent oil that is suitable for use in street cars with typical oil change intervals. Their "race 21" is really a 5W30 that is formulated how they think oil should be done. The standard street oils are formulated in such a way that they meet API specs and are in fact certified by API. Amsoil will advertise that they meet the specs but they are not certified. What does this mean to you and me? I have no idea but there is a standard for oils and most meet the minimum standard. The "race 21" is a better oil as it is forumulated in a way that makes it more lubricative than the standard oil. It is not API certified. Does this mean it wouldn't pass the test? Nope. It just costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to get this certification and they already have an oil that meets it. Simple enough. You don't necessarily need to use the "race 21" oil as the regular is just fine but it can't hurt anything. I personally use the standard 5W20 in my RX-7 with no issues because it is cheaper than the race 21 and already better than the alternatives out there.

Racer X-8

Hey, I wonder if RedLine and Amsoil would fund you a trip to their "brewery" so they could in-kind throw a little poop on RP product while showing you "the rest of the story". I'm sure they got something to say about RP too, don't you think?

Nice write-up, really. Poetry in motion.

Racer X-8

Okay, so, going back thru this, I maybe got a little confused? The "poly" in POA (Polyalphaolefins) means polymerized alpha olefins? And, since the polymerization is what solved the seal swelling problem, and Group V are not POA's, then, Group 5 oils have not gone thru the process that prevents seal swelling, such as RedLine and Amsoil?

bxb40

Rotarygod, there are many confusions in your post... but nice try I know because I wear a blue (not white, would get dirty too quick) labcoat when I was to pissoff my technician and do stuff in the lab (no test tube - too small)
First, the sulphur is bad for the catalyst but good for fuel injector lubrication (so there is a big issue with low sulphur diesel fuel... hard to find a good and cheap additive to replace it). Purely for motor oil, sulphur has no effect what-so-ever, but is not needed either. The other "impurity" you mention for Group I and II is called "aromatics", derivatives of benzene. You might not like those (why not? smells good, hence their name) but most additives for oil LOVE them - take those out, like pure PAO, and additives just don't dissolve. So yes, you either have those, or some Group V solvents. And no, Group V are not "oils" = alkanes = "saturates." Are naphthaline alkylates (so a higehr viscosity index "aromatics"), esters (provide solubility and seal swealing - cause if it shrinks, it fails), in the future maybe PIO (polyinternalolefins), etc. Aromatics decrease visc index and are prone to oxidation, so you need just the right amount to do the dissolving job. And no, the seal problems were not "solved" by polymerization but by Mazda using proper materials that do not need swealing agents or are simply stronger.
Group III are synthetics in US but not in the rest of the world (ask the lawyers why...). They come from dino oil, after purification and chemical transformations that increases their visc index by destroying part of their aromatics. Those are actually good quality oils and can be pushed into the PAO visc index teritory - but it would get their problems, so no point to go so far with chemical transformations. They are much cheaper, so to me, the best compromise. Any of these are overkill when you change oil at 3000 miles. Other additives get destroyed, and the quality of the base stock is not significant. Now, for the 30,000 miles change interval (in the works already, you'll live to see it ), you need synthetics. But those are GM engines, not rotaries, with high water and fuel contamination, high shear due to RPM and fast degradation of additives due to higher temperatures.
Different oil blenders use different additives and base stocks, so it all comes together to make a unique product. This is why they need to test it - and no, if it does not pass critical tests, cannot be certified API. It is not about money - they probably know from their labs it would fail some particular test, so no point to apply. But, lets say it fail cold temperatures - is still great for the track! But it is not good for Northern US! And your engine warranty is gone if using non-certified motor oils - ask MNAO But what if it destroys the catalyst? In a race car, there is none. Now, are you ready to replace yours? So don't just jump to conclusions that all oils are equal, no certification is required because other oils have it, and so on... Oils are designed for specific applications - unless you want to get out of warranty sooner, use certified motor oils for non-race cars.

rotarygod

First off I won't disagree with any of that about the oils because I never contradicted any of that. I don't know how you have so heavily misread what I've said and have such a big issue with any of it. I never said Group V oils were "oils". Group V oils are not paraffin (Group I-III) or PAO (Group IV) base stocks. Any other base stocks are Group V. I really don't want to list what this includes in the interest of space. I don't care if you call it "oil" or not. Group V just tells you what it is not and that is paraffin and PAO base stock. I really don't want to write a book on the subject here on the forum so I will purposely leave out MANY important details. It's hard to convey many technical topics without writing alot so there is always much info lost in a very short version. Needless to say I haven't implied anything that you didn't and vice versa.

Yes it is true that seal technology can also overcome the swelling issues caused by some oils but many modern synthetic oils have taken care of this issue in the formulation itself as well. I stated how. Does everyone do it? That's another thing altogether but they have the ability to and some such as RP do.

I do understand that oil has to pass certain tests to get API certified. RP's racing oils should pass this test but they do not care as it would cost them too much money to try. That's why they aren't certified. Go ask them yourself. It's all about money in that case. They already have certified oils that aren't called "race" oils and they still sell all the rest. I see no reason to either.

I don't care about warranties when it comes to oil because I'm not dumb enough to tell the dealership what I use. I hope no one is. It's irrelevant. We all know good and well a good oil is a good oil whether it is recommended by the manufacturer or not. Their recommendations are all based on under the table agreements anyways. It's all political. None of them will test the oil anyways. It isn't cost or time effective for them to and you can't tell by looking at it. There isn't a single dealership out there that tests used oil. Any one that claims to is lying to scare people. There are many dealerships out there that will go out of their way to not help someone.

FWIW: I don't use a cat 364 days of the year. It looks like I do though. Wouldn't be too concerned about cat life from which oil I use personally anyways even if I did. Which oil you use just isn't going to appreciably affect it. You don't get that much oil out the exhaust. At least I hope you don't!

I definitely never implied that all oils are created equal. I did state that many oils meet a base testing standard set by the API. By no means does that make them equal. Passing a test with a C and getting an A on it are both passing but they are not the same grade. They just meet the same minimum requirement.

bxb40

Well, sorry, but you did reffered to Group V as "oils" , base oils and base stocks in your long post:

"Group IV and V oils have NO sulfur at all and their viscosity index is well above 140. They are a much more pure base stock that resist high temperatures much better. That doesn't look like a bad oil to use to me. It looks much better! Group V oils are just base oils that are not POA's or paraffin based. These include all the rest to get to the point. Amsoil and Redline fit in this catagory whereas RP is a Group IV."

They are simply synthetic liquids. - I wanted to correct that just in case some people start looking for pure Group V "oils." because they sound so "pure" and good. Only the esters work alone, as base stocks. But they are used only in aviation - use pure ester oils in a car, and the engine is gone in no time. Gaskets, tubbings, everything non-metallic will sweel and break/leak.

The second point I wanted people to understand is that unless you use API certified oils, you risk voiding the warranty. The vast majority of people on this site still have a catalyst, even if it is a high flow. If they want that one destroyed - why put it in the first place?

Your statement that RP having oils that are API certified, have the racing ones that are as good, though certifiable, but chose to save money and not certify them, is misleading. Do they give you a complete list of analytical tests to prove it passes? Running the tests themselves (or at Blackstone Labs, for example) but not certifying it (how much that costs anyway?) would work too. So what data did they show you on the racing oil to convince you is OK for use? I'm just curious... Now, if they don't check anything because is expensive - how do you still trust them to use that particular oil in a non-race car? Asking them if it's OK is a little weak in my book. Testing and numbers work though.

As for using RP and not telling the dealer: what color is your oil? Maybe purple - do you really need to tell the dealer what it is? I doubt it

But you are correct - dealers have no clue what an oil does to start with, neither do they care, so they will recommend whatever brings them the most profit. Including oil changing at 3000 miles, not 5000 or 7500 miles as tested by Mazda

rotarygod

The purple dye in RP goes away very quickly after it gets used. When you drain it, it is no longer purple and looks like every other oil. A dealer couldn't tell.

BoosTED

iTrader: (2)

Your selection
Category : Automotive
Sub-category : Car, Van, SUV, Truck
Manufacturer : MAZDA
Model : RX-8
Year : 2004
Engine : 2 Cyl-1.3L
Climate : All temps
Change Selection
Your Recommendations
Engine Oil
Castrol GTX
API*,SL 5W-20 - Maximum Protection Against Viscosity and Thermal Breakdown
Product Data Sheet
Castrol SYNTEC
API*,SL 5W-20 - Outperforms ALL Leading Motor Oils
Product Data Sheet
Castrol SYNTEC BLEND
API*,SL 5W-20 - Added Protection for Frequent Short Trips
Further Information
For more information on any of our products, please contact our Customer Service line at 1-800-462-0835.
Legal
These Recomendations are based on the statistics. We do not take the responsibility in case malfunctioning.

Has anyone noticed that Rosenthal Mazda sells Castrol Syntec 5w20 under RX-8 Maintenance: http://www.finishlineperformance.com...nce_index.html

rotarygod

I don't give a damn what a dealership says. I got the word from the man himself.

PUR NRG

rotarygod, I'd like to preface this post by saying I use synthetic in my car as well.

You recommend against using Idemitsu in street cars, saying "it's made to go several hundred" miles. Yet you also mentioned in a previous post that one race mile is equivalent to a hundred street miles. By that logic wouldn't Idemitsu be good for 10k street miles?
________
LAMBORGHINI REVENT?N HISTORY

rotarygod

Actually after speaking to David at Royal Purple he did state that it can be used. He had an actual oil analysis copy of the Idemitsu that came out of the 787B after the LeMans victory. Asie fro abnormally high levels of Molybdenum, it's still a detergent oil which means it could still be used on the street. The Royal Purple race oils are also the same way. Detergent oils that can be used in street cars. There are several "race" oils out there that are not high detergent oils that shouldn't be used in a street car for long periods of time.

crossbow

I'd imagine that the average owner who starts their car on a cool day, drives it 5-10 miles, shuts it off, and repeats at the end of the day, puts significantly more wear on their engine in 10k miles, then 100 race miles.

Due to the nature of street driving, the requirements for the oils are significantly different then those used in racing engines.

Though a racing oil might be ok'd for a street car...I'd still rather rely on a street formulation if I was putting around on normal roads. Either way, if you do use a racing oil, please do a short interval and run a UOA. That''ll show you if its matching up with your driving conditions.