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Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8
(Post 4279538)
I read a ton of stuff on seals and ultimately decided on OEM's (except coolant seals) even though Pineapple was pushing Ianetti's. No one has put more R&D into them than Mazda. But you know what they say about opinions.
You can't beat Iannetti seals BUT the price difference makes them worth it only if you are building with a precise purpose in mind. Besides, apex seals aren't the culprit in our case so it's better to invest the money elsewhere! |
Yeah I could not justify the cost in an engine that will almost surely die prematurely regardless of what seals are used.
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That's exactly my point.
Most of us here don't need iannetti seals :) |
Factory seals are very nice. Aftermarkets are hit or miss. Better safe than sorry. Factory (3mm) on the right.
http://www.rotaryeng.net/good1.JPG |
Originally Posted by bse50
(Post 4279552)
That's exactly my point.
Most of us here don't need iannetti seals :) |
well something about the concept of cryo intruiged me and I know its not iannetti but that wasnt in the budget so for less than 10% I figured what the hey :)
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If we pull it appart cryo-treat some factory seals!
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Have you guys ever looked at the down sides of Cryo treating?
One thing to keep in mind, however, is that increased hardness does not always translate into increased wear resistance. Wear resistance depends on other factors, such as frictional forces and the toughness of the surface. Very often making the surface harder reduces its toughness and increases its coefficient of friction, in which case wear resistance goes down. |
I am not sure that it is about hardness, its more about aligning of molecules (I think)
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Cryo treating is almost useless in our environment.
Housings and seals aren't made of the same material. What happens when you only change 1 side of the equation? Now, you can make the result better by using good ceramic seals or... :p |
Why do the material types play a role in how heat transfers through it? the housing have coolant running through it so that helps "dissipate" that heat. The seals do not have any official cooling (unless you count the omp) so the faster the heat can transfer to the rotor and into the oil the better.....in theory anyway
are you suggesting I lick my apex if I can’t go ceramic next time....lmfao |
Just go with oem seals and premix.
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well that doesnt help educate me...lol
and check on the premix |
Did you use Atkins apex seals?
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yes, atkins cryo corners, apex and side seals (I think I forgot to cryo the side seal springs :()
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I told you to go with the Cubic Zirconium Apex seals bro, they are awesome. Hoss-05 went with the blood diamond Apex Seals I think.
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I know dude I didnt listen....crap
next time I am going to draw my own blood and put it in a mold of a rotor and 1-up all you SOB's. solid blood rotor....its got to be at least 50hp |
That doesn't sound sanitary at all.
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Definately not....but the sacrificies we make for performance
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Mazda factory seals are cast iron and go through a process called electron beam hardening but only at the tips. The entire seal is not treated. This hardens the edge very precisely and closes all the flaws in it. Everything else they tried led to chatter marks at high rpms including many different materials. Aftermarket apex seal makers make many claims hoping you'll fall for them. Cryo treating must be better! Mazda tried it. They aren't doing it. Unbreakable seals made from unobtainium! The seals may not break but something will. There are softer seals that are easy on the housings. They wear out faster though and have been known to break easier when used with forced induction. Many aftermarket seals will chatter at high rpms. Mazda knows better than anyone else how to make seals for a rotary engine. The extra $100 or so that they cost may be the difference between a rebuild later and a reliable engine. The money you saved may ultimately cost you lost horsepower. I can't afford Ianetti's and don't have any reason to use them. That leaves one and only one viable seal option. Factory Mazda. Other people can use whatever they want but I refuse to use anything else. That's just opinion.
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
(Post 4279699)
Mazda factory seals are cast iron and go through a process called electron beam hardening but only at the tips. The entire seal is not treated. This hardens the edge very precisely and closes all the flaws in it. Everything else they tried led to chatter marks at high rpms including many different materials. Aftermarket apex seal makers make many claims hoping you'll fall for them. Cryo treating must be better! Mazda tried it. They aren't doing it. Unbreakable seals made from unobtainium! The seals may not break but something will. There are softer seals that are easy on the housings. They wear out faster though and have been known to break easier when used with forced induction. Many aftermarket seals will chatter at high rpms. Mazda knows better than anyone else how to make seals for a rotary engine. The extra $100 or so that they cost may be the difference between a rebuild later and a reliable engine. The money you saved may ultimately cost you lost horsepower. I can't afford Ianetti's and don't have any reason to use them. That leaves one and only one viable seal option. Factory Mazda. Other people can use whatever they want but I refuse to use anything else. That's just opinion.
Originally Posted by Charles R. Hill
(Post 4279705)
Even with boosted applications I try to steer my customers toward using the factory parts for rebuilds. I am keeping an eye on some NRS-sealed builds I have done, though.
As for break-ins; I just had a customer install an engine I built and he used the engine break-in procedure described by RG, with some tweakings and explanations from me, and he has reported satisfaction with both the build and the break-in process. Chasing a couple of gremlins that were around before my build, which will be addressed at his 1,000 mile compression test. going to make homeade tortillas then cook fajitas and then I will get some compression #'s posted. |
Originally Posted by rotarygod
(Post 4279699)
Mazda factory seals are cast iron and go through a process called electron beam hardening but only at the tips. The entire seal is not treated. This hardens the edge very precisely and closes all the flaws in it. Everything else they tried led to chatter marks at high rpms including many different materials. Aftermarket apex seal makers make many claims hoping you'll fall for them. Cryo treating must be better! Mazda tried it. They aren't doing it. Unbreakable seals made from unobtainium! The seals may not break but something will. There are softer seals that are easy on the housings. They wear out faster though and have been known to break easier when used with forced induction. Many aftermarket seals will chatter at high rpms. Mazda knows better than anyone else how to make seals for a rotary engine. The extra $100 or so that they cost may be the difference between a rebuild later and a reliable engine. The money you saved may ultimately cost you lost horsepower. I can't afford Ianetti's and don't have any reason to use them. That leaves one and only one viable seal option. Factory Mazda. Other people can use whatever they want but I refuse to use anything else. That's just opinion.
Originally Posted by Charles R. Hill
(Post 4279705)
Even with boosted applications I try to steer my customers toward using the factory parts for rebuilds. I am keeping an eye on some NRS-sealed builds I have done, though.
As for break-ins; I just had a customer install an engine I built and he used the engine break-in procedure described by RG, with some tweakings and explanations from me, and he has reported satisfaction with both the build and the break-in process. Chasing a couple of gremlins that were around before my build, which will be addressed at his 1,000 mile compression test. only thing that's used were : both rotors, E-shaft ... oil pan doesn't count right? :lol: Everything else is new, including both rotor bearings, MSP Stationary gears, Turbo housing street ported by BDC (I don't have a pair of steady hands) after maybe 5-6 tries, it started, but stalls after it's warmed up, and seems to run kinda rough. after playing with the tps and other stuff it doesn't stall anymore. still idles a bit rough, but compare to when it first started, it's much smoother now, probably because the premix I had in tank finally got to it (OMP works, I have brand new lines and I can see the oil going thru it) Seems fine so far, maybe I should do a compression test on it and see what happens? but I think I should do it after 500 miles. Oh as for using aftermarket seals. I think it's either go all out (Ceramics, Dr. I or NRS) otherwise might as well stick with stock. but of course, you get 15 million different opinion on the 7club forum and if u tell them to use stock, most of them would bitch at you and say use Groopy. you know it's true RG ! :) |
well that kind of the same boat I am in as far as everything new but something doesnt compute.....as to why my doesnt start......car is warming up as I type so we will see what the #'s are
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Originally Posted by houstonrx8er
(Post 4279820)
well that kind of the same boat I am in as far as everything new but something doesnt compute.....as to why my doesnt start......car is warming up as I type so we will see what the #'s are
at least it works now, right ? let's see what #s you are pulling. |
so I had to fight with the tester a little bit but when I removed the "check valve" in the line I finally got it to read.......and drumroll please..... all 3 blips of both rotors where over 35psi. That is a good thing looking at 9k's post but I cant get the overall "115" #. Any advice?
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