eXentric

I know flooding has been touched on many times in this thread, but until today I didn't know what to look (listen) for. I am now sitting at the house waiting for Mazda roadside to appear.

Last night I had to back the car out of the garage and later pull it back in because I needed to use the garage to get some painting done. I let her run for about two minutes each time, but that apparently wasn't enough.

This morning when I went to crank, it turned over twice and then it did something I hadn't heard before. It sounded like the starter had disengaged and was just sitting there spinning. I thought my battery was dieing. I was desparate to get to work so I tried it twice more. BIG MISTAKE.

I went into the house and got my multimeter and checked the battery. I figured if it was dead like I thought, maybe I could bug one of my neighbors. To my shock, it was a strong 12.63v. So I turned on the headlights and they didn't even dim when I tried a third time. It immediately dawned on me as I gasped "OH ****!" out loud.

I grabbed the manual and tried the emergency foot to the floor for another 5 or 6 ten-second cranks and actually got it to turn over twice. But it never fired up. After I tried the dry cranking (foot to the floor) I tried one last time without it (as the manual suggests). No go. I gave up and called the dealership to book a un-flood appointment.

The dealership suggested that I tell roadside that it simply wont start (rather then it's flooded). She mentioned that flooding is covered only once, but I read here that might be changing. Either way, she told me what to say to try and keep a flooding incident off the record with roadside and that I could try another dealership if it happened again. This isn't the dealership I bought the car from, but I've been there once before and I like their service much more. I'll probably go back to them again in the future.

Anyway, this got long drawn out, but I was mainly trying to warn other new drivers about the sound and what to expect when you have your first flood. Hopefully you never will.

I do have a question for others: This morning I have tried about 4 regular cranks and 6 dry cranks within a 30 minute period; some of them as long as 10 seconds. How much damage (if any) do you think I may have done to my starter? I tried to wait at least 15 seconds or so between cranks even when I was doing them in rapid succession.

Regards,

eXe

Tamas

iTrader: (1)

I don't think you did any damage to the starter by doing that.

Sorry to hear your misfortune with flooding... just out of curiosity: does your car have the M flash already?

eXentric

No, unfortunately it doesn't have the 'M' flash. I did finally get the 'L' flash several months ago. After getting tired of pressuring the dealership I bought the car from, I called another dealership and they flashed it for me the next day. I know it was flashed successfully with the 'L' flash because they let me watch them flash it. But not the 'M' flash (I didn't even know there was one).

I'm about to put a call into the dealership where the car is right now and see if they'll do the flash for me while it's there. I had to leave the car and take a loaner (re-imbursed rental) because I want them to take a look at a few other things while it's there. I'll let you know how I fare on the flash.

robertdot

You didn't know there was an 'M' flash? You're on the forums pretty frequently. I'm surprised you haven't heard about it...

dcfc3s

Yeah, you're starter is fine. I've beat the crap out of Mazda starters in the past trying to get project cars to start, and they take it with gusto. Not saying you should beat on it, but just reassuring you .

In the future, I would probably just drive the car around the block really quick, pull into the driveway/garage, raise the RPM's to 3000 and shut the car off. Just letting it idle for a bit doesn't really help that much - you gotta get a little heat into the motor.

Dale

eXentric

Thanks dcfc3s, I'm glad for the reassurance. The service rep at the dealership also mentioned reving it to 3500 RPMs before shutting it down. I had never heard of that before. Should I rev it up to 3500 and shut her down quickly or let it settle back down to idle for a second or two before I shut it off?

Sorry if I sound ignorant on this. This is my first rotary. As robertdot pointed out, I am on here frequently but I'm almost entirely in the electronics segmets -- guess I'm missing out on some good stuff.

One of the other things I wanted them to look at was the sound of running water in the engine, which you guys already found and (somewhat) resolved in this thread. I printed out the first two pages and faxed it to my service rep allong with the request for the 'M' flash. She said she'd attach the fax to my paperwork that the mechanic looks at and she also said she'd add the 'M' flash to my list of work to be done.

Fingers crossed ...

Tamas

iTrader: (1)

The way I usually do the rev-up is to rev it up to about 3000-3500 and when I take my foot off the pedal, I also turn the key to the 'off' position.
I did this whenever my engine was not warm when shutting it off (and I agree with dcfc3s, some heat is sufficient, doesn't mean fully warmed up), and I never had any flooding problem yet. I also do have the M flash which supposedly helps to avoid flooding.

eXentric

Thanks guys. I really appreciate the info. I hope I'm not re-hashing too much that's already been covered. I did make an effort to search.

Gomez

This 3000rpm thing has grown legs but I'm not so sure I'd run with it! Let me say at the outset that I have never flooded my car, and only a small number of flooding incidents (less than five) have been recorded by Australian forum members.

Our flashes are labled differently here. We are currently on the "G" flash but we have no official idea of what it does differently from any previous flash. We have had one "G" flash owner flood his 8.

I never run up to 3000rpm b4 killing the engine....it seems to me to be a waste of fuel and an annoyance to the neighbourhood cats! One thing I have always done without thinking about it though is allow the car to completely initialize before I start it. Key to "On", wait for the fuel pump to pressurise....warning lights do their little dance.....then start. Let the PCM get used to the idea that it's time to wake up! A little electronic/mechanical sympathy before starting. I seem to recall reading this in some Ford literature years ago.....anyway, I've done this for years on EFI cars.

This theory on avoiding flooding has been on the forum for a while, but hasn't been often mentioned. It could be valid. Giving the computer time to run its start up routines before having to cope with the processing of a complex set of start instructions seems logical........

Gomez.

P.S. I like annoying the local cats, actually.....!

RX-8 friend

The flooding is caused by the PCM trying to rev. up a cold engine to 2500 immediatly when starting, and occationally doing that even though the engine is not actually running. Therefore you get too much fuel in the chambers. "M" flash "fixes" this by delaying the rev. up for a second or two, ensuring it doesn't happen until the engine is actually running.

Note also that when idling the renesis is running very rich (you can smell the excess fuel). This is why just letting it idle isn't a very good idea when warming it up. We find reving it to 3000 occationally helps a lot and warms it up very quickly. Let it idle for 10 sec. or so to get the oil flowing before playing with the throttle.

Unflooding with the peddle to the floor requires a lot of perseverence. It takes a lot of cranking, therefore many owners think they are harming the engine and quit before they are successful. I've found it takes 1-2 minutes of cranking in 15 sec. bursts (never releasing the peddle), before trying to start it with the peddle released. Never try to start it by pressing the peddle a little.

Gomez

Hi friend! A very informative post. Doing a little research (as your profile says zip!) I find that you are obviously tied up with Maurice in some capacity and would therefore be fairly well informed!

Anyway, during my quick blat thru your old posts I found this quote from RX Guy last July......

" A while back someone posted the Product Comparison Guide that is supposedly distributed to all dealers. Here is an extract from page 29, Section - "2004 Mazda RX-8 Delivery Tips ", Subsection "Rotary Engine":

During short periods of cold engine driving (such as backing the RX-8 out of a garage to wash it in a driveway) drivers should use the following procedure to help keep the spark plugs from fouling or the rotary engine from running rough:
· Turn the ignition switch to the START position and hold (up to 10 seconds at a time) until the engine starts.
· After starting the engine, let it idle for about 10 seconds, then move the vehicle.
· After moving the vehicle, let the engine idle for about 5 minutes.
· Rev the engine to 3000 rpm, and then let it return to idle.
Turn the ignition switch to the OFF position." End Quote.....

......this is obviously where the 3000rpm thing came from. I imagine there would be little benefit running up to 3 grand if you have just done 50 miles on the freeway and the car is well up to temp at shutoff.

Until recently flooding was virtually non-existant down here, then 3 guys flooded in a week or so. In mild weather, too. I have been trying to find out a little about it........thanks once again for your post.

Regards Gomez.

Gomez

And here's a not so prophetic quote that will go down in the annals of RX-8club.com history as the most unfortunate post ever to be typed......it's halfway down the page and it's from the guy who started this website, BOOSTD 7:D :D

Thanks man....I enjoyed the laugh!

Regards, Gomez.

dcfc3s

I usually bring the RPM's up to 3000, then turn off the key at that point. The engine will spin to a stop with no fuel being injected, and any residual fuel will be exhausted. Again, this is only really necessary in a quick move with the car BONE cold. General driving around, this isn't necessary, and if you drove the car earlier in the day, it isn't necessary. It takes quite a bit of time for all the heat to get out of the engine - the engine will stay warm for some time after driving it.

Dale

eXentric

Well, I got the M flash and they also supposidly fixed the water sound mentioned above. I won't get the car back until tomorrow morning because I have to work late past closing tonight.

Thanks agin for the info guys.

Doctor Bob

Guys-I do not have reflash yet on 11/03 car. I am careful not to shut off cold. Yesterday After driving 10 minutes and well warmed up I shut down. When I came out 90 min. later cranked 6-8 seconds without starting. Then did again and started after 6 sec or so with some hesitant running and then was OK and drove home. Was this likely a near flood?

Thanks,

Bob

eXentric

Anyone else care to answer this one? All I know with mine was that after the engine turned over once or twice it just sounded like the starter kind of gave up. I know it didn't because later when I was trying the 'dry cranking' it was still making that sound but did turn over a couple of times. I don't know how better to explain the sound other then to say it didn't sound like a normal crank, it sounded like the starter wasn't doing it's job.

I know the 'M' flash is supposed to address "Hard Starts". That is the exact term the service manager used when he explained the benefit of the M flash over the phone with me. Other then that, I don't have as detailed information as RX8 friend seems to have.

I would be really careful if this happens to you again. Especially if you don't get it started on the second attempt. I'd switch over to the dry crank method (foot all the way to the floor as discussed earlier here) and try that. Would others agree?

Doctor Bob

Dear eXentric,

Thanks for feedback. After starting I considered myself lucky. I will definitely do reflash when I go to dealer for AC issues.

Thanks,

Bob