Spot the difference on this housing?
04-19-2009, 01:18 PM
#78
this OMP design seems a hell of a lot more reliable than the old stepper motor types. it's just a spring loaded plunger. you can't get much simpler than that. the original 89-91 E-OMP (which had no OCV in the system) was especially notorious for stepper motor problems, leading to limp mode and/or a fried ECU due to an internal short.
Last edited by arghx7; 04-19-2009 at 01:21 PM.
04-19-2009, 04:26 PM
#79
Super Moderator
TAZ-NZ
Sorry mate, they are not pumps, they do not "pump" anything, they are electromagnetic solenoids that open and close the main plungers in the two EMOP's.
When the battery voltage is supplied by the metering oil pump driver, the main and sub plungers in the metering oil pump move. The plungers return to the original position by spring force when the battery voltage is not supplied.
The Solenoids electromagnetically (battery voltage via driver) open and close the main Plungers that lets oil through.
The plungers are spring loaded (this is the exact process of any solenoid set up with a plunger, a smaller example is a Fuel Cut Off (stop) solenoid in a Carburettor., works on voltage on plunger in, voltage off plunger out (stop)...
BTW..there is constant oil in the system.
And No I am not confused as to how it works, it is elaborate but simple really.
Sorry mate, they are not pumps, they do not "pump" anything, they are electromagnetic solenoids that open and close the main plungers in the two EMOP's.
When the battery voltage is supplied by the metering oil pump driver, the main and sub plungers in the metering oil pump move. The plungers return to the original position by spring force when the battery voltage is not supplied.
The Solenoids electromagnetically (battery voltage via driver) open and close the main Plungers that lets oil through.
The plungers are spring loaded (this is the exact process of any solenoid set up with a plunger, a smaller example is a Fuel Cut Off (stop) solenoid in a Carburettor., works on voltage on plunger in, voltage off plunger out (stop)...
BTW..there is constant oil in the system.
And No I am not confused as to how it works, it is elaborate but simple really.
Last edited by ASH8; 04-19-2009 at 04:29 PM.
04-19-2009, 04:32 PM
#80
Super Moderator
Yes it is far better than anything Mazda have done on any rotary...BUT..
04-19-2009, 05:52 PM
#81
Certified Mazda Tech
this OMP design seems a hell of a lot more reliable than the old stepper motor types. it's just a spring loaded plunger. you can't get much simpler than that. the original 89-91 E-OMP (which had no OCV in the system) was especially notorious for stepper motor problems, leading to limp mode and/or a fried ECU due to an internal short.
the OMP is what makes the rotary usable for average consumers, fix it/advance it and you can up the ante of the rotary motor itself, which in the end has been mazda's underlying goal for like 40+ years, it just wasn't always obvious. Mazda of japan LOVES rotary, the only hybrid they have is the Hydrogen renesis.
kevin.
04-20-2009, 12:16 AM
#82
I'm all for making the OMP better. I feel like the new setup has shoehorned in that second OMP... hopefully the 16X will have one simple, reliable, integrated unit. The two rotaries I've owned have had the oldschool mechanical pumps that injected oil directly onto the housings and into the intake manifold. I've never premixed and never felt the need to, even after tearing my motor down.
For the 16X, what I'm really hoping for is that the new housing designs will retain the oil film better, and the new combustion chamber will dissipate heat on the seals better. The result would be that the current low oil consumption would in fact be enough oil to maintain longevity, instead of just being an emissions compromise.
For the 16X, what I'm really hoping for is that the new housing designs will retain the oil film better, and the new combustion chamber will dissipate heat on the seals better. The result would be that the current low oil consumption would in fact be enough oil to maintain longevity, instead of just being an emissions compromise.
Last edited by arghx7; 04-20-2009 at 12:19 AM.
04-20-2009, 12:42 AM
#83
Super Moderator
One good thing is the 16X rotor housings are thinner, so the rotors and Apex Seals are also not as wide (more like the width of a 12A) , however because of the longer rotor stroke the side seals will also be slightly longer.
From what we have all seen of the 16X the location and layout of the 3 oil Nozzles looks the same as RENESIS II, so I think we will see a similar (or same) delivery method with the engines OIL Pump moving the engine oil to the Nozzles.
I think the test will be after a few years of this new MOP system in the "field" with the 09 RX-8's.
From what we have all seen of the 16X the location and layout of the 3 oil Nozzles looks the same as RENESIS II, so I think we will see a similar (or same) delivery method with the engines OIL Pump moving the engine oil to the Nozzles.
I think the test will be after a few years of this new MOP system in the "field" with the 09 RX-8's.
04-20-2009, 01:07 AM
#84
One good thing is the 16X rotor housings are thinner, so the rotors and Apex Seals are also not as wide (more like the width of a 12A) , however because of the longer rotor stroke the side seals will also be slightly longer.
From what we have all seen of the 16X the location and layout of the 3 oil Nozzles looks the same as RENESIS II, so I think we will see a similar (or same) delivery method with the engines OIL Pump moving the engine oil to the Nozzles.
I think the test will be after a few years of this new MOP system in the "field" with the 09 RX-8's.
From what we have all seen of the 16X the location and layout of the 3 oil Nozzles looks the same as RENESIS II, so I think we will see a similar (or same) delivery method with the engines OIL Pump moving the engine oil to the Nozzles.
I think the test will be after a few years of this new MOP system in the "field" with the 09 RX-8's.
how about some info on the differences in the fuel injectors and spray patterns!
beers
04-20-2009, 01:59 AM
#86
Super Moderator
It is a Plunger not a Pump, it moves by a electro-"magnetic" coil. Plungers are either open or closed, the Plunger(s) slide up or down and are spring loaded allowing oil to flow to nozzles.
Oil flow to the Plungers are controlled by the OCV (Oil Control Valve).
Oil and pressure to the OCV comes from the Engines Oil Pump.
I think it is very simple and really ingenious, I really don't know why Mazda did not do this in the first place...Perhaps it had something to do with cost....or FORD???
Oil flow to the Plungers are controlled by the OCV (Oil Control Valve).
Oil and pressure to the OCV comes from the Engines Oil Pump.
I think it is very simple and really ingenious, I really don't know why Mazda did not do this in the first place...Perhaps it had something to do with cost....or FORD???
04-20-2009, 02:02 AM
#87
Super Moderator
Do you know it Swoope, come on spit up the info!
04-20-2009, 02:37 AM
#88
i am not the knowledgeable one. i just know them.. and i sure as **** dont have access to the 09 printouts like you.. and thanks for that.. right now i am looking for a better filtering low bypass that works with the 04!
it has been mentioned that the spray pattern and pressure might have changed.
but what do i know i am just a troubleshooter and dickwad!
beers
it has been mentioned that the spray pattern and pressure might have changed.
but what do i know i am just a troubleshooter and dickwad!
beers
04-20-2009, 02:59 AM
#89
Super Moderator
i am not the knowledgeable one. i just know them.. and i sure as **** dont have access to the 09 printouts like you.. and thanks for that.. right now i am looking for a better filtering low bypass that works with the 04!
it has been mentioned that the spray pattern and pressure might have changed.
but what do i know i am just a troubleshooter and dickwad!
beers
it has been mentioned that the spray pattern and pressure might have changed.
but what do i know i am just a troubleshooter and dickwad!
beers
04-20-2009, 11:03 AM
#90
The new 09 system has a lot of characteristics of a returnless fuel system if you think about it. That's a now-prevalent technology that they clearly modeled the new OMP on.
04-24-2009, 01:53 PM
#91
the old 04 OMP is pretty much the same design as the 89-91 units from what i can see. You have to compare the two systems to the prevalent technology at the time. The 89-91 pump functions much like a stepper-motor based idle air control valve, something that was being increasingly adopted at that time among other makes (Mitsu for example). You have to realize just how crude the PCM technology was back then. Mazda made a LOT of compromises because PCM's were so slow/crappy. All you really need for that old stepper design is a PCM map of steps vs TPS voltage (Mazda designed a new TPS just for the e-OMP) and maybe a modifier for engine load as measured by the airflow meter. The PCM was simply too slow to make the kind of calculations used in the 09 system, and the additional sensors etc would add cost. The FC3S fuel injection system was still basically a slight modification of the Bosch L Jetronic EFI system as used in say the old 280ZX.Mazda also made a lot of compromises in the series 6 FD3S sequential twin turbo system because they just didn't have a powerful enough PCM.
The new 09 system has a lot of characteristics of a returnless fuel system if you think about it. That's a now-prevalent technology that they clearly modeled the new OMP on.
The new 09 system has a lot of characteristics of a returnless fuel system if you think about it. That's a now-prevalent technology that they clearly modeled the new OMP on.
Paul.
04-24-2009, 06:24 PM
#92
Certified Mazda Tech
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
jamespond24
RX-8 Parts For Sale/Wanted
11
12-01-2015 11:11 PM
nferguson88
RX-8 Parts For Sale/Wanted
1
10-06-2015 12:45 PM
