Used Oil Analysis - Post Them Here
04-27-2011, 05:38 AM
#376
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I've studied oil lit from Exxon since being a kid, and went to Exxon's distributor oil training school, and I've seen other's real world success.
In the 70's, some 240z guys working in some lab in Austin would come buy 10 cases of XD-3 40 diesel oil for their cars saying it was the best oil they found for holding up viscosity.
One guy ran the same oil in his 1980 Olds diesel for nearly 250k miles until the thermo stuck, and those diesels usually didn't last long (gas engine conversion GM experiment).
My opinion is that the 5w30 oils were early experiments into thinner gas saving oils, and back then were known to shear a lot.
That's why I'm a fan of the new ow oils, and I'd run 0w30 before 5w30 anyday, but 0w40 fror me.
So does anyone have oil test specs for Mazda rotaries like the German cars?
Tell me where so I can get new info, please.
In the 70's, some 240z guys working in some lab in Austin would come buy 10 cases of XD-3 40 diesel oil for their cars saying it was the best oil they found for holding up viscosity.
One guy ran the same oil in his 1980 Olds diesel for nearly 250k miles until the thermo stuck, and those diesels usually didn't last long (gas engine conversion GM experiment).
My opinion is that the 5w30 oils were early experiments into thinner gas saving oils, and back then were known to shear a lot.
That's why I'm a fan of the new ow oils, and I'd run 0w30 before 5w30 anyday, but 0w40 fror me.
So does anyone have oil test specs for Mazda rotaries like the German cars?
Tell me where so I can get new info, please.
04-27-2011, 08:07 AM
#377
Iluvrevs Rotella T6 has ACEA E9 rating which limits the ash to 1.0, which is not the best but not bad either.
Ideally one would like to run ACEA C1/C4 or GF-5 rated oil with lower ash limit. I found only two meeting that spec(C1/C4) - Fuchs TITAN GT1 Pro C-1 5W-30 and Motul 8100 Eco-clean+ 5W-30.
I track my car and daily dive it occasionally so I will stick with racing oils like redline.
here is a good place to get info on different oil specs:
http://www.lubrizol.com/EuropeanEngineOils/C408.html
Ideally one would like to run ACEA C1/C4 or GF-5 rated oil with lower ash limit. I found only two meeting that spec(C1/C4) - Fuchs TITAN GT1 Pro C-1 5W-30 and Motul 8100 Eco-clean+ 5W-30.
I track my car and daily dive it occasionally so I will stick with racing oils like redline.
here is a good place to get info on different oil specs:
http://www.lubrizol.com/EuropeanEngineOils/C408.html
Last edited by Nadrealista; 04-27-2011 at 08:26 AM.
I burned more than half a quart the day of the Texas8.
04-27-2011, 09:52 AM
#379
1% evil, 99% hot gas.
iTrader: (21)
The primary causes for the poor reputation the otherwise excellent engine received were the corporate bean counters being too cheap to put a water separator in the fuel system, shitty diesel fuel, new-at-the-time torque-to-yield head bolts, and typical ****-poor training of the dealer network on the diesel and torque-to-yield bolts.
The Olds diesels didn't last because of bean counters, ignorance, and stupidity, not because of any "conversion" or flaw in the engine itself.
04-27-2011, 10:01 PM
#380
^Hey, I would've bought one if I needed a crew car to the oilfield, and they lasted longer than I'd keep the car.
I did mention that he went 284k miles approx. and the thermo stuck which could happen on any engine.
Didn't mean to step on your toe!
I did mention that he went 284k miles approx. and the thermo stuck which could happen on any engine.
Didn't mean to step on your toe!
Last edited by 40w8; 04-27-2011 at 10:17 PM.
04-27-2011, 10:11 PM
#381
04-27-2011, 10:55 PM
#382
The concern for the renesis would be "can deposits build up around seals, and cause sticking and scoring?". Also,"could deposits plug up the exhaust, and/or the cat?".
There's not a open chamber like head where the oil can stay, and cook like piston engines either.
I've never run much diesel oil because I never had a diesel vehicle, but it works fine.
The oil refiners are always tweaking the formula, and I notice that M1 0w40 is down to 13.5 cst from 14., but the HTHS is 3.8 up from 3.7.
I don't need to hand wring over what might happen, any 10w40 SD from 1970 is good enough for the rotary, and/or any modern oil with lots of additives won't hurt it.
04-28-2011, 08:04 AM
#383
Yes, the current ACEA specs do reduce the ash to 1.0, however, you have other specs by VW and BMW requiring much lower. Additionally there are other oils such as Valvoline conventional which is currently at .80 per their data specs. Over the long run in an environment that necessitates combustion of oil this will add up. Obviously one could get around this by using boutique diesel oils with higher quality additives that would be better for tracking the cars.
Then there's the issue of the 0w oils, which require VII polymers. These have been a known issue since multi grades have first came out for creating significant deposits. Even with heavier group IV and V base stock usage oils like M1 0w40, Elf, Total, or Esso will still require these to obtain such a wide spread in viscosity. Note that M1 0w40 consistently shears to a high 30wt in many applications. Obviously VIIs are better now, but in heavier dose and in over the counter lubricants these still pose risk.
Then there's the issue of the 0w oils, which require VII polymers. These have been a known issue since multi grades have first came out for creating significant deposits. Even with heavier group IV and V base stock usage oils like M1 0w40, Elf, Total, or Esso will still require these to obtain such a wide spread in viscosity. Note that M1 0w40 consistently shears to a high 30wt in many applications. Obviously VIIs are better now, but in heavier dose and in over the counter lubricants these still pose risk.
04-28-2011, 09:18 AM
#384
Deposit prevention is one of the main reasons why I like ester based oils like redline.
Deposits, if they form, can easily be taken care of with periodic seafom decarb or water steam clean..once, maybe twice a year would be just fine depending on the use and mileage.
Deposits, if they form, can easily be taken care of with periodic seafom decarb or water steam clean..once, maybe twice a year would be just fine depending on the use and mileage.
04-28-2011, 01:26 PM
#385
1% evil, 99% hot gas.
iTrader: (21)
Engine oil and the Olds diesel have in common that they are surrounded by oceans of mythology and bullshit. I'm doing my part to stop it rather than spread it.
Last edited by wankelbolt; 04-28-2011 at 01:31 PM.
04-29-2011, 03:29 AM
#386
Part of the reason I'm on this thread is to dispel the mythology and plain-old bullshit people casually spread.
Engine oil and the Olds diesel have in common that they are surrounded by oceans of mythology and bullshit. I'm doing my part to stop it rather than spread it.
Engine oil and the Olds diesel have in common that they are surrounded by oceans of mythology and bullshit. I'm doing my part to stop it rather than spread it.
Cite it when it comes, and give data for your rebuttle.
04-29-2011, 03:49 AM
#387
Yes, the current ACEA specs do reduce the ash to 1.0, however, you have other specs by VW and BMW requiring much lower. Additionally there are other oils such as Valvoline conventional which is currently at .80 per their data specs. Over the long run in an environment that necessitates combustion of oil this will add up. Obviously one could get around this by using boutique diesel oils with higher quality additives that would be better for tracking the cars.
Then there's the issue of the 0w oils, which require VII polymers. These have been a known issue since multi grades have first came out for creating significant deposits. Even with heavier group IV and V base stock usage oils like M1 0w40, Elf, Total, or Esso will still require these to obtain such a wide spread in viscosity. Note that M1 0w40 consistently shears to a high 30wt in many applications. Obviously VIIs are better now, but in heavier dose and in over the counter lubricants these still pose risk.
Then there's the issue of the 0w oils, which require VII polymers. These have been a known issue since multi grades have first came out for creating significant deposits. Even with heavier group IV and V base stock usage oils like M1 0w40, Elf, Total, or Esso will still require these to obtain such a wide spread in viscosity. Note that M1 0w40 consistently shears to a high 30wt in many applications. Obviously VIIs are better now, but in heavier dose and in over the counter lubricants these still pose risk.
If Mercedes thinks M1 0w40 is the best for their engines that's good enough, if not the best available, and they also think it works in their car diesels.
When I ran M1 10w30 (virgin oil 100 deg c cst 10.9) it would test 10 cst in a 4.7l Dodge. When I run M1 0w40 (virgin oil 100 deg c cst 13.5) it tests 12 cst in my 8 like it does in many other cars.
I don't care if they use tallow from cows, as long as my engine doesn't fail because of it.
Castrol 0w30 tests close to M1 0w40 at 12 cst @ 100 deg c so I think we have a weight claim fail mostly, not product trouble.
Know of any failed engines that 0w40 caused?
Last edited by 40w8; 04-29-2011 at 03:52 AM.
04-30-2011, 08:30 AM
#388
Maybe those deposits get burned, and flung off, since the only place they can hide and do damage is the combustion seals, and I put 300% more Mobil 2T anyway, which is lots of polyisobutylene, considered a lubricating cleaner.
If Mercedes thinks M1 0w40 is the best for their engines that's good enough, if not the best available, and they also think it works in their car diesels.
When I ran M1 10w30 (virgin oil 100 deg c cst 10.9) it would test 10 cst in a 4.7l Dodge. When I run M1 0w40 (virgin oil 100 deg c cst 13.5) it tests 12 cst in my 8 like it does in many other cars.
I don't care if they use tallow from cows, as long as my engine doesn't fail because of it.
Castrol 0w30 tests close to M1 0w40 at 12 cst @ 100 deg c so I think we have a weight claim fail mostly, not product trouble.
Know of any failed engines that 0w40 caused?
If Mercedes thinks M1 0w40 is the best for their engines that's good enough, if not the best available, and they also think it works in their car diesels.
When I ran M1 10w30 (virgin oil 100 deg c cst 10.9) it would test 10 cst in a 4.7l Dodge. When I run M1 0w40 (virgin oil 100 deg c cst 13.5) it tests 12 cst in my 8 like it does in many other cars.
I don't care if they use tallow from cows, as long as my engine doesn't fail because of it.
Castrol 0w30 tests close to M1 0w40 at 12 cst @ 100 deg c so I think we have a weight claim fail mostly, not product trouble.
Know of any failed engines that 0w40 caused?
This idea of using ester based oil is probably the best assurance against deposits from what I can tell and I may go this depending on what I get from my Dyson analysis.
04-30-2011, 08:48 AM
#389
Nature vs. Nurture
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Is Eneos engine oil ester based? It is now avail a couple places local to me. I use their gear lube.
Hehe - it sounds like we should use their 0W50: ENEOS Motor Oil 0W50 is especially suited for sports cars with large engine displacements and high outputs.
Our engines are as big as the biggest motorcycle engines!
Hehe - it sounds like we should use their 0W50: ENEOS Motor Oil 0W50 is especially suited for sports cars with large engine displacements and high outputs.
Our engines are as big as the biggest motorcycle engines!
05-01-2011, 12:50 AM
#392
Is Eneos engine oil ester based? It is now avail a couple places local to me. I use their gear lube.
Hehe - it sounds like we should use their 0W50: ENEOS Motor Oil 0W50 is especially suited for sports cars with large engine displacements and high outputs.
Our engines are as big as the biggest motorcycle engines!
Hehe - it sounds like we should use their 0W50: ENEOS Motor Oil 0W50 is especially suited for sports cars with large engine displacements and high outputs.
Our engines are as big as the biggest motorcycle engines!
05-01-2011, 09:54 PM
#394
Iluvrevs,
Oil users get as close to the formulas as we can by doing uoa's or voa's, but we aren't likely to hear much about the millions of test and chemical combinations that the refiners do.
Mobil did say somewhere that they mix a pao (group iv), and ester (group v) together in a certain ratio to maximize adhesion to metal parts, and neither seal swelling or seal shrinking.
Even people that analize oil like Dyson aren't privy to all the latest research in the oil company lab.
Used oil analysis mostly tells you if your air filter, water seal, and fuel system are working OK.
They don't tell you much about deposit control since the additives could be killing your cat, and you'd find out later.
Oil refining theory was pretty good in the 60's, and now there's trillions of miles of motor oil use data.
Car drivers have been the test for 50 years, and the refiners only have to look at a perceived problem, and try some additive on the oil (experiment on road vehicles by formula tweak), and see if that is better.
Oil users get as close to the formulas as we can by doing uoa's or voa's, but we aren't likely to hear much about the millions of test and chemical combinations that the refiners do.
Mobil did say somewhere that they mix a pao (group iv), and ester (group v) together in a certain ratio to maximize adhesion to metal parts, and neither seal swelling or seal shrinking.
Even people that analize oil like Dyson aren't privy to all the latest research in the oil company lab.
Used oil analysis mostly tells you if your air filter, water seal, and fuel system are working OK.
They don't tell you much about deposit control since the additives could be killing your cat, and you'd find out later.
Oil refining theory was pretty good in the 60's, and now there's trillions of miles of motor oil use data.
Car drivers have been the test for 50 years, and the refiners only have to look at a perceived problem, and try some additive on the oil (experiment on road vehicles by formula tweak), and see if that is better.
05-02-2011, 05:28 AM
#395
However, speaking theoretically the heavier use of vii's could lead to deposits in the form of burnt plastic. Could not happen too if M1 is using top of the line vii's. Doubt it though at the low cost. The there is still the issue of ash at 1.2 perc. Again theoretically this could be an issue in a higher lube consumption app like the 8.
If it hurts engines the oil companies wouldn't use it.
05-03-2011, 07:59 AM
#396
That actually isnt true. There was a post by Buster on BITOG of a presentation done by M1 in 2006 lifting the use of Group III versus PAO due to superior availability in addition to near PAO technical features. Most beleive that they still use some PAO and possibly Esters especially in the 0w40 blend. They also use a good bit of AN from what Ive read.
05-03-2011, 08:34 AM
#398
05-03-2011, 08:41 AM
#399
For commentary from Penzoil on VII's (viscosity modifiers) please see http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/in...d=72&Itemid=80.
31. I have a Direct Injection engine and it is highly suspected that using oil with a NOACK rating over 10% is not good for DI engines. Since Pennzoil Ultra™ is over 10% would Pennzoil® guarantee no deposits to form on the valves of DI engines?
Oil volatility is not a significant factor for inlet valve deposits in a direct injection gasoline engine. The significant factor is viscosity modifier type and concentration, so using fully synthetic narrow span viscosity grades such as 5W-20 is beneficial. In North America, there is no specification calling for NOACK of less than 10%. The most important thing for DI engines is engine design, to better prevent deposits on ITV’s (In Take Valves), since there is no fuel wash as in PFI (Port Fuel Injection) engines.
Unfortunately, offering a guarantee against deposits would be tough since so many other variables could impact the outcome.
If these are depositing on DI app valves they will deposit in the rotary as oil is consumed.
For extensive discussion regarding the impact of SAPS (ash) when oil containing them is consumed please see http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514269543/html/x546.html.
Further support to warn against using such oils in the rotary can be had through the diesel manufacturers requiring a reduction in these additives as well as the gasoline engine manufacturers requiring a reduction in SAPS to protect the CAT. Deposits are deposits and will collect if provided the home to collect on.
31. I have a Direct Injection engine and it is highly suspected that using oil with a NOACK rating over 10% is not good for DI engines. Since Pennzoil Ultra™ is over 10% would Pennzoil® guarantee no deposits to form on the valves of DI engines?
Oil volatility is not a significant factor for inlet valve deposits in a direct injection gasoline engine. The significant factor is viscosity modifier type and concentration, so using fully synthetic narrow span viscosity grades such as 5W-20 is beneficial. In North America, there is no specification calling for NOACK of less than 10%. The most important thing for DI engines is engine design, to better prevent deposits on ITV’s (In Take Valves), since there is no fuel wash as in PFI (Port Fuel Injection) engines.
Unfortunately, offering a guarantee against deposits would be tough since so many other variables could impact the outcome.
If these are depositing on DI app valves they will deposit in the rotary as oil is consumed.
For extensive discussion regarding the impact of SAPS (ash) when oil containing them is consumed please see http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514269543/html/x546.html.
Further support to warn against using such oils in the rotary can be had through the diesel manufacturers requiring a reduction in these additives as well as the gasoline engine manufacturers requiring a reduction in SAPS to protect the CAT. Deposits are deposits and will collect if provided the home to collect on.
05-03-2011, 08:52 AM
#400
FWIW I am coming up on my next oil change (estimated in 3 weeks at my current rate of driving). I will be switching to 10w-40 RP for the summer season. I already have a kit and will be sending in my current sample of 5w-30 RP. It will be interesting to see how it fairs with 3000 miles on the oil and only 7000 (by the time of the OC) on the engine.
I can assume that they will come back and say that I can go longer between OCI's but better safe than sorry.
I can assume that they will come back and say that I can go longer between OCI's but better safe than sorry.