Water Treatment
07-13-2007, 02:31 PM
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07-13-2007, 02:35 PM
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I don't think the issue is really that it was a gallon but rather how fast a gallon went through. 3-5 minutes to go through an entire gallon at 3000 rpm is FAR more water than fuel being used!!! Some of the serious water injection guys run a max of about 20% water to fuel. A few will go higher. This wasn't a water to fuel ratio it was a fuel to water ratio. He was using a vacuum line that is way too large. A small nipple on the lower manifold would have been a better choice. He's not steam cleaning a gasoline engine. With the proportions used, he's running gasoline through his steam engine! It's amazing that it still ran.
07-13-2007, 03:51 PM
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You sucked a whole gallon of water through your engine? That's nuts. I could understand maybe a half pint over the course of 30 minutes or so. That much water hitting hot engine parts can cause cracking.
That sulfur smell is probably because most of the cat is in your driveway.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
That sulfur smell is probably because most of the cat is in your driveway.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Mr. Golden,
It is the belief of the braintrust at Team Leg Hump that you know absolutely nothing regarding building or maintaining rotary engines. Taking in a gallon of water under vacuum cracks metal parts. I'm sure in your career of building hundreds of engines that you've seen this time and time again.
Please do not take this as an insult, as the scientists at Team Leg Hump have thoroughly debated and tested this in cyberspace - the source for all that is good and true.
Regards,
Wilson
Leg Humper Emeritus
07-13-2007, 04:00 PM
#31
Its not like we are under load when we do this. Its just an essentially high idle. The Ve is still low and the water turns immediately to steam.
Add to that the fact that you can't damage a rotary by hydro-locking it (I guess I shouldn't say "can't" because some knuckle head will figure out a way to do it), and its a no-brainer.
However, I think a solvent will do a better job.
The main advantage to the water method is that it is easy and doesn't require that you remove anything (spark plugs, ESS connector, etc) whereas the ATF/solvent trick does require that you get under the car.
I will reiterate what I said elsewhere in my thread about this very subject - these motors carbon up very quickly. I had lost almost a 1/2 point of compression on a nearly-new motor in only a few months. Using the solvent trick brought it completely back.
Add to that the fact that you can't damage a rotary by hydro-locking it (I guess I shouldn't say "can't" because some knuckle head will figure out a way to do it), and its a no-brainer.
However, I think a solvent will do a better job.
The main advantage to the water method is that it is easy and doesn't require that you remove anything (spark plugs, ESS connector, etc) whereas the ATF/solvent trick does require that you get under the car.
I will reiterate what I said elsewhere in my thread about this very subject - these motors carbon up very quickly. I had lost almost a 1/2 point of compression on a nearly-new motor in only a few months. Using the solvent trick brought it completely back.
07-13-2007, 04:17 PM
#32
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I'm not saying that water won't work. It just sounded like he put a lot of water through it in a short amount of time. That much water can not be good.
I would think that you could hydro lock a rotary if enough water was pulled in. You can't compress a liquid.
I would think that you could hydro lock a rotary if enough water was pulled in. You can't compress a liquid.
07-13-2007, 04:46 PM
#33
I didn't say you can't hydro-lock it. I said you can't damage it by hydro-locking it.
The volume of the water is somewhat irrelevant, as long as the motor keeps running.
However, you want only as much water as you can vaporize. Any that goes through as liquid is wasted.
The volume of the water is somewhat irrelevant, as long as the motor keeps running.
However, you want only as much water as you can vaporize. Any that goes through as liquid is wasted.
07-13-2007, 09:10 PM
#34
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Quite an interesting thread we have here.
This method has been around for a long time, as long as rotaries have been known to carbon up inside.
I am merely the latest person to post and repeat it, apparently.
Let me go ahead and get this out of the way now:
I MUST RECOMMEND THAT RX-8 OWNERS NOT PERFORM THIS CLEANING METHOD ON THEIR CARS WITHOUT CAREFUL CONSIDERATION AHEAD OF TIME.
I am sure rotarygod and mazdamaniac are breathing a collective sigh of relief right about now.
In the past I've used this method on plenty of rx-7 rotaries...nonturbo, turbo, FC, FD, auto, manual. I've always had great results and no issues. I would not have recommended it, otherwise.
When I first obtained my high mile, lady owned AT rx-8, this was high on my list of maintenance to do. I used both vacuum nipples on the lower passenger side of the intake manifold...teed them together to one common hose, which I dipped in the water. You can;t use a big fat hose, you'll ingest too much water and either flood the engine, or dilute your oil.
[Wait...did I just say that a rotary could DILUTE the oil supply with an injected fluid in too high a volume? Why yes MM...I did!]
My results were not so great, and to this day I am unsure why it differs from any other rotary.
In just about 1 minute, I stopped to make a progress check. Everything looked fine and the engine responded normaly after the hose was removed from the water.
So, I continued. After about 3-4 minutes of 3krpm throttle feathering, I started smelling something so I immediately stopped and went to investigate. To my *amazement* the entire exhaust was getting pretty warm...parts were glowing.
Later, after everything calmed down it was fine again, but there was a distinct burned smell inside the car...come to find out the muffler had scorched the NVH tar liner stuff in the trunk due to the radiant heat (whose idea was it to put the muffler so close to the body with no shielding, anyway??). I wound up scraping that messy stuff out of the trunk area and reapplying rubberized undercoating to prevent rust etc, and have had no more issues.
Holy ****, I can't say I've ever seen any rotary do this in such a short time. As an engine builder, i have a custom made engine run stand that lets me run shortblocks or longblocks out of the car. I have basically an exhaust manifold and a short muffler welded together. I routinely run these engines at 2-3krpm for hours on end and the exhausts never get anywhere near that hot.
I suspect the issue with this car relates to the pcm fuel correction for rpm and load and more sophisticated electronic controls, and they probably run leaner than previous versions of rotary engines, thus heating the exhaust up more.
Oh, and the ATF "trick" has been proven to do exactly jack **** for carbon buildup years ago. Seriously...take an old rotor, piston, whatever that is carbon caked, and sit it in a bowl of ATF. A day or a week later it will be exactly the same. ATF is useful for deflooding rotary engines because it is thinner than motor oil but still thick enough to build compression temporarily.
IF you really want to give your engine a "treatment" while letting it sit for a few days, then put some degreaser in the plugholes and rotate the engine every few hours. This is how I clean a lot of my engine rotors for rebuilds...just sit them in a bin filled with greased lightning, and 3 days later they come out SHINY as if you polished them. All you have to do is rinse them off with water and then blow the passages out with air, and they are ready to use.
EDIT: It is practically impossible to hydrolock a rotary. It is certainly possible to water-flood a rotary, if you have a ghetto air intake and hit a big enough water puddle. In this case you just blow the water out the plugholes, dump in some oil/atf to rebuild compression, and fire her up. If you actually poured a bucket of water into a running engine, enough to fill the entire volume of one rotor face/chamber area, it probably would mechanically lock and break a casting somewhere. For moderate amounts of fluids, the seals are spring loaded and extra pressure simply pushes past these seals.
This method has been around for a long time, as long as rotaries have been known to carbon up inside.
I am merely the latest person to post and repeat it, apparently. Let me go ahead and get this out of the way now:
I MUST RECOMMEND THAT RX-8 OWNERS NOT PERFORM THIS CLEANING METHOD ON THEIR CARS WITHOUT CAREFUL CONSIDERATION AHEAD OF TIME.
I am sure rotarygod and mazdamaniac are breathing a collective sigh of relief right about now.
In the past I've used this method on plenty of rx-7 rotaries...nonturbo, turbo, FC, FD, auto, manual. I've always had great results and no issues. I would not have recommended it, otherwise.
When I first obtained my high mile, lady owned AT rx-8, this was high on my list of maintenance to do. I used both vacuum nipples on the lower passenger side of the intake manifold...teed them together to one common hose, which I dipped in the water. You can;t use a big fat hose, you'll ingest too much water and either flood the engine, or dilute your oil.
[Wait...did I just say that a rotary could DILUTE the oil supply with an injected fluid in too high a volume? Why yes MM...I did!]
My results were not so great, and to this day I am unsure why it differs from any other rotary.
In just about 1 minute, I stopped to make a progress check. Everything looked fine and the engine responded normaly after the hose was removed from the water.
So, I continued. After about 3-4 minutes of 3krpm throttle feathering, I started smelling something so I immediately stopped and went to investigate. To my *amazement* the entire exhaust was getting pretty warm...parts were glowing.
Later, after everything calmed down it was fine again, but there was a distinct burned smell inside the car...come to find out the muffler had scorched the NVH tar liner stuff in the trunk due to the radiant heat (whose idea was it to put the muffler so close to the body with no shielding, anyway??). I wound up scraping that messy stuff out of the trunk area and reapplying rubberized undercoating to prevent rust etc, and have had no more issues.
Holy ****, I can't say I've ever seen any rotary do this in such a short time. As an engine builder, i have a custom made engine run stand that lets me run shortblocks or longblocks out of the car. I have basically an exhaust manifold and a short muffler welded together. I routinely run these engines at 2-3krpm for hours on end and the exhausts never get anywhere near that hot.
I suspect the issue with this car relates to the pcm fuel correction for rpm and load and more sophisticated electronic controls, and they probably run leaner than previous versions of rotary engines, thus heating the exhaust up more.
Oh, and the ATF "trick" has been proven to do exactly jack **** for carbon buildup years ago. Seriously...take an old rotor, piston, whatever that is carbon caked, and sit it in a bowl of ATF. A day or a week later it will be exactly the same. ATF is useful for deflooding rotary engines because it is thinner than motor oil but still thick enough to build compression temporarily.
IF you really want to give your engine a "treatment" while letting it sit for a few days, then put some degreaser in the plugholes and rotate the engine every few hours. This is how I clean a lot of my engine rotors for rebuilds...just sit them in a bin filled with greased lightning, and 3 days later they come out SHINY as if you polished them. All you have to do is rinse them off with water and then blow the passages out with air, and they are ready to use.
EDIT: It is practically impossible to hydrolock a rotary. It is certainly possible to water-flood a rotary, if you have a ghetto air intake and hit a big enough water puddle. In this case you just blow the water out the plugholes, dump in some oil/atf to rebuild compression, and fire her up. If you actually poured a bucket of water into a running engine, enough to fill the entire volume of one rotor face/chamber area, it probably would mechanically lock and break a casting somewhere. For moderate amounts of fluids, the seals are spring loaded and extra pressure simply pushes past these seals.
Last edited by RotaryResurrection; 07-13-2007 at 09:15 PM.
07-13-2007, 10:56 PM
#35
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Perhaps a letter to Rob at Pineapple is in order...I'll get you started:
Mr. Golden,
It is the belief of the braintrust at Team Leg Hump that you know absolutely nothing regarding building or maintaining rotary engines. Taking in a gallon of water under vacuum cracks metal parts. I'm sure in your career of building hundreds of engines that you've seen this time and time again.
Please do not take this as an insult, as the scientists at Team Leg Hump have thoroughly debated and tested this in cyberspace - the source for all that is good and true.
Regards,
Wilson
Leg Humper Emeritus
Mr. Golden,
It is the belief of the braintrust at Team Leg Hump that you know absolutely nothing regarding building or maintaining rotary engines. Taking in a gallon of water under vacuum cracks metal parts. I'm sure in your career of building hundreds of engines that you've seen this time and time again.
Please do not take this as an insult, as the scientists at Team Leg Hump have thoroughly debated and tested this in cyberspace - the source for all that is good and true.
Regards,
Wilson
Leg Humper Emeritus
07-13-2007, 11:41 PM
#37
Registered
This method has been around for a long time, as long as rotaries have been known to carbon up inside.
Back in the 50s, and into the 60s, you'd see ads in mags like Popular Science that began "Ever notice how smooth your car runs in the rain?" You could mail order a water injection kit that would inject a quart or so of water in 1000 miles. The claim was smoother running, and keeping the combustion chamber clear of carbon.
One of my high school shop teachers made his own, with a Mason jar and some fittings. He had a screw valve that he tweaked until he got about a thousand miles to the quart. Claimed it worked great, but he never let us tear his engine down for a look-see.
Ken
07-14-2007, 12:04 AM
#38
kevin@rotaryresurrection
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Well, we're kinda talking about a different method/reason for water injection. I'm sure you realize this but I want to clarify for the other readers who might not.
What you're talking about with old planes and such is injection used to cool the combustion chamber surfaces thus making pre-ignition less likely, and allowing you to run more boost/timing/leaner AFR without the damage you'd have otherwise suffered. A lot of the rx7 guys are starting to play with this in-depth, as well as other injectants such as alcohol, methanol, etc. In fact, I have a water/meth injection setup on my FC. Consistent use of this sort of injection can have lack of carbon buildup as a positive side effect, but that's not it's primary reason for being.
What we're trying to do here is use the water as a cleaning agent alone, with no power adding/assisting value otherwise since it is not in use while under load.
What you're talking about with old planes and such is injection used to cool the combustion chamber surfaces thus making pre-ignition less likely, and allowing you to run more boost/timing/leaner AFR without the damage you'd have otherwise suffered. A lot of the rx7 guys are starting to play with this in-depth, as well as other injectants such as alcohol, methanol, etc. In fact, I have a water/meth injection setup on my FC. Consistent use of this sort of injection can have lack of carbon buildup as a positive side effect, but that's not it's primary reason for being.
What we're trying to do here is use the water as a cleaning agent alone, with no power adding/assisting value otherwise since it is not in use while under load.
07-14-2007, 11:53 AM
#39
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[QUOTE=RotaryResurrection;1969950]Well, we're kinda talking about a different method/reason for water injection. I'm sure you realize this but I want to clarify for the other readers who might not.[QUOTE]
Of course. Thanks for keeping my trip down memory lane from distracting the real discussion.
The people who advertised water injection kits in Popular Science also confused the two. They talked of cleaning the engine as well as smoother running.
Ken
Of course. Thanks for keeping my trip down memory lane from distracting the real discussion.
The people who advertised water injection kits in Popular Science also confused the two. They talked of cleaning the engine as well as smoother running.
Ken
07-15-2007, 02:05 PM
#40
I believe a gallon over 5 minutes is the max.
In fact we have used this metod for years on our cars. Beu we never used a ton of water.
We also added it by hand to regualte the engine to ensure the water burns offs and the car runs without dying.
It's actually amazing the first time you see someone do that.
In fact we have used this metod for years on our cars. Beu we never used a ton of water.
We also added it by hand to regualte the engine to ensure the water burns offs and the car runs without dying.
It's actually amazing the first time you see someone do that.
07-15-2007, 02:39 PM
#41
kevin@rotaryresurrection
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All you have to do is put a kink in the vacuum line feeding the engine, and only let loose of it a certain amount so that just a little water goes through...it's easy to regulate based on how your engine behaves.
08-02-2007, 11:59 AM
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I'm trying too do this water treatment too my 60,000 mile Rx 8 today...
I'm trying too do it through those two nipples at the end of the intake, but so far am having a hard time trying too simply remove the damned nipples... (edit: use a flathead too pry em off) After that, I still have no clue what size vacuum hose I should be buying, or how long I should be keeping 1 rotor on when I give it this "water treatment".
I'm trying too do it through those two nipples at the end of the intake, but so far am having a hard time trying too simply remove the damned nipples... (edit: use a flathead too pry em off) After that, I still have no clue what size vacuum hose I should be buying, or how long I should be keeping 1 rotor on when I give it this "water treatment".
Last edited by Keef; 08-02-2007 at 12:11 PM.
08-02-2007, 01:10 PM
#46
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I planned on doing 1 at a time, I'm just curious should I give each rotor half a gallon? a quarter gallon? I guess it really doesn't matter because with 1 rotor functioning I'm not going too have too worry about the engine flooding...
edit: it's all ready done...
summary:
Less than half a gallon for both rotors. It seemed like creating that suction sound as if you were slurping with a straw is the best bet, because when I just dumped the tube into the water the engine would start vibrating and having a hard time tuning too compensate.
My check engine light went off! (which doesn't matter all that much too me, I have a midpipe, it's always on) Must've been a misfire I guess.
Also my check engine oil light went off (halfway through the procedure)
After that I drove too red line at least 8 times... This morning when I drove around the temperature was 80 degree's which gave me a little boost of noticeable power. Later in the day (around 1) the temperature started too hit the 90's (back too slow). After the water treatment my 8 feels like it did this morning (in 80 degree weather), only it's really 90 degree's...
Also, the engine oil light went away after driving, and the car wreaked of an abnormally large amount of gas during the whole process. Smelled less like a lawnmower and more like a gas station.
I also have an important question, wouldn't it be smart too use the water treatment at higher RPM's, so the steam cleans all the aux. ports?
edit: it's all ready done...
summary:
Less than half a gallon for both rotors. It seemed like creating that suction sound as if you were slurping with a straw is the best bet, because when I just dumped the tube into the water the engine would start vibrating and having a hard time tuning too compensate.
My check engine light went off! (which doesn't matter all that much too me, I have a midpipe, it's always on) Must've been a misfire I guess.
Also my check engine oil light went off (halfway through the procedure)
After that I drove too red line at least 8 times... This morning when I drove around the temperature was 80 degree's which gave me a little boost of noticeable power. Later in the day (around 1) the temperature started too hit the 90's (back too slow). After the water treatment my 8 feels like it did this morning (in 80 degree weather), only it's really 90 degree's...
Also, the engine oil light went away after driving, and the car wreaked of an abnormally large amount of gas during the whole process. Smelled less like a lawnmower and more like a gas station.
I also have an important question, wouldn't it be smart too use the water treatment at higher RPM's, so the steam cleans all the aux. ports?
Last edited by Keef; 08-02-2007 at 01:33 PM.
08-02-2007, 01:20 PM
#48
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Thanks to others for all the posts that clarified and explained the process. That's what I was looking for. My head feels better now.
I'm still wondering about the extreme heating of the cats/exhaust that is being reported. Not sure that's been answered. Lean fuel mixture has been mentioned, but really --- a glowing cat at 3000 rpm?? Is it possible the steam is being split into H2 and O2, and then being recombined further down?
Would this be as effective done in 3-minute sessions and allowing the exhaust to cool a while in between?
Thx
Last edited by Nubo; 08-02-2007 at 01:24 PM.
08-09-2007, 11:14 PM
#50
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Thinking about it some more, I think the glowing exhaust may be an afterburn issue. The water prevents complete combustion from happening, so extra fuel goes into the exhaust where it hits the hot walls and burns there. The same phenomenon that's responsible for rotaries shooting flames at higher rpm shifts.