white smoke + rough start + coolant smell = cracked rotor housing?
12-19-2009, 09:44 AM
#1
white smoke + rough start + coolant smell = cracked rotor housing?
Hello, I claim to be no expert on the rotary so this is why I'm taking it to you guys since we all know it's a completely different ballgame, so flame-suit on.
For starts I have a 05 shinka MT with 43k miles
I've confirmed that I have a coolant leak, but there's no drops underneath the car.
At start up (even if the engine is already warm) it will act like an old lawn mower that hasn't been started in a few years. It will sputter and act like it isn't getting enough gas, and I must hold down the pedal for the first few minutes to keep it from dying. Until the leak started this problem did not exist, even on the colder mornings.
The exhaust has a small coolant smell
Next while it is just starting up the CEL light will flash while the engine runs rough. Once the bad vibrations stop then the CEL light will remain constant and the check oil light will turn on for a while.
I've checked the dipstick which has a strong amount of froth on it (I know this is normal) and the froth does not smell like coolant from what I can tell.
Ok after doing a lot of searching I know some of these are supposed to be normal things for the rotary in cold weather, but when all these symptoms start at once, plus a strong coolant smell, it makes me nervous.
For starts I have a 05 shinka MT with 43k miles
I've confirmed that I have a coolant leak, but there's no drops underneath the car.
At start up (even if the engine is already warm) it will act like an old lawn mower that hasn't been started in a few years. It will sputter and act like it isn't getting enough gas, and I must hold down the pedal for the first few minutes to keep it from dying. Until the leak started this problem did not exist, even on the colder mornings.
The exhaust has a small coolant smell
Next while it is just starting up the CEL light will flash while the engine runs rough. Once the bad vibrations stop then the CEL light will remain constant and the check oil light will turn on for a while.
I've checked the dipstick which has a strong amount of froth on it (I know this is normal) and the froth does not smell like coolant from what I can tell.
Ok after doing a lot of searching I know some of these are supposed to be normal things for the rotary in cold weather, but when all these symptoms start at once, plus a strong coolant smell, it makes me nervous.
Last edited by Gitfiddle; 12-19-2009 at 09:47 AM. Reason: Forgot to add info
12-19-2009, 03:10 PM
#6
"Man I popped a tire...what do I do now?"
rx8 club response:
"Plugs, coils, wires"
I'm bored.
12-19-2009, 03:19 PM
#8
This is probably the most common response I see on this forum for troubleshooting. It makes me laugh. It's like the thing with how everyone says our car is slow until you "take it to the twisties."
"Man I popped a tire...what do I do now?"
rx8 club response:
"Plugs, coils, wires"
I'm bored.
"Man I popped a tire...what do I do now?"
rx8 club response:
"Plugs, coils, wires"
I'm bored.
12-19-2009, 06:12 PM
#11
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Most important thing at this time guyus is exactly what Paul asked................"How are you confirming the coolant leak? Are you having to fill it constantly?"
12-20-2009, 04:03 AM
#13
Sorry for the slow reply, been a hectic day. Yes I am needing to refill the coolant on a regular basis as a confirmed leak. And like i said there is no signs of it going onto the ground =\ I have only had the car for 4 months and about 4k miles, so I'm not too sure on if the coils or plugs were changed.
12-20-2009, 08:47 AM
#14
1st---get the code read--it could help
2- pull your sparkplugs and see what they look like.
3- check the oil and see what it looks like
if you are having to replace the coolant frequently--its going somewhere. if there is no leak then the only other place is internally. That means its new engine time--Merry Christmas!!
Warrenty should cover!
olddragger
2- pull your sparkplugs and see what they look like.
3- check the oil and see what it looks like
if you are having to replace the coolant frequently--its going somewhere. if there is no leak then the only other place is internally. That means its new engine time--Merry Christmas!!
Warrenty should cover!
olddragger
12-20-2009, 12:36 PM
#15
Super Moderator
Lets say it as it is...
If the guy is adding coolant on a regular basis, and there are No external coolant leaks, and he is smelling Coolant out the exhaust pipes, and it is getting harder to start....
I call this now.... coolant entry into rotor housings...the Old rotary problem, which still happens even today...
So, basically you need an engine overhaul..if this circumstance is confirmed..
An old checking method is to have a hot/warm engine (carefully remove coolant cap...IT will Blow Back!)
Start car...if you can get it to idle and rev to about 2000 RPM and it is not overflowing too much, if you can see a 'string' or flow of small (or large) bubbles appearing in coolant bottle (Bottle has to be full) it is compression blowback.....= new engine...you need two people to do this.
Just a reminder that the Factory Rotor Housings MAIN Compression/Coolant Seals have not changed since 1985, they are from the FC RX-7, and are the Exact same ones used in the RX-8, including 2010 MY....all rotaries since the FC of 1985.
N326-10-B71A Inner O Ring Seal (4)
N326-10-B72 Outer O Ring Seal (4)
If the guy is adding coolant on a regular basis, and there are No external coolant leaks, and he is smelling Coolant out the exhaust pipes, and it is getting harder to start....
I call this now.... coolant entry into rotor housings...the Old rotary problem, which still happens even today...
So, basically you need an engine overhaul..if this circumstance is confirmed..
An old checking method is to have a hot/warm engine (carefully remove coolant cap...IT will Blow Back!)
Start car...if you can get it to idle and rev to about 2000 RPM and it is not overflowing too much, if you can see a 'string' or flow of small (or large) bubbles appearing in coolant bottle (Bottle has to be full) it is compression blowback.....= new engine...you need two people to do this.
Just a reminder that the Factory Rotor Housings MAIN Compression/Coolant Seals have not changed since 1985, they are from the FC RX-7, and are the Exact same ones used in the RX-8, including 2010 MY....all rotaries since the FC of 1985.
N326-10-B71A Inner O Ring Seal (4)
N326-10-B72 Outer O Ring Seal (4)
12-20-2009, 12:56 PM
#16
Warranty is a no go for me, it's a salvage title =\. But on the upper hand I guess it's time to learn how to tear this bad boy apart myself. I've always been the dive in head first and learn it kind of individual...
An old checking method is to have a hot/warm engine (carefully remove coolant cap...IT will Blow Back!)
Start car...if you can get it to idle and rev to about 2000 RPM and it is not overflowing too much, if you can see a 'string' or flow of small (or large) bubbles appearing in coolant bottle (Bottle has to be full) it is compression blowback.....= new engine...you need two people to do this.
Dude, very useful information. I'll try this today and see what happens.
So given that it truly is cracked, the rotor housing should be the only part affected? So is it plausible to buy a new rotor housing and change it? (Since i've seen them from as low as $140 and upwards to $250) or is there a chance that the problems so big to need an entire engine?
Once again thanks for the help everybody.
An old checking method is to have a hot/warm engine (carefully remove coolant cap...IT will Blow Back!)
Start car...if you can get it to idle and rev to about 2000 RPM and it is not overflowing too much, if you can see a 'string' or flow of small (or large) bubbles appearing in coolant bottle (Bottle has to be full) it is compression blowback.....= new engine...you need two people to do this.
So given that it truly is cracked, the rotor housing should be the only part affected? So is it plausible to buy a new rotor housing and change it? (Since i've seen them from as low as $140 and upwards to $250) or is there a chance that the problems so big to need an entire engine?
Once again thanks for the help everybody.
12-20-2009, 02:07 PM
#18
Super Moderator
I agree with OD...
Do a COMPLETE rebuild...I gather "salvage" title means you got it (RX-8) cheap?...so don't be cheap on the repair...
Frankly, it is not a task for "beginners", there are special tools, tolerances, methods of assembly...get any of this wrong, and you will be back taking the engine out/apart again..
Again, if you have $3K, I would be getting Paul at Mazmart a PM and get one of his rebuilds...
Who said anything was "cracked"??
Coolant entry "generally" is a small leak between the "sandwich" plates or irons and a rotor housing, it can and usually is only one of the two rotor housings that leak coolant internally.
In most cases you get a slight "warping" of your rotor housing because of poor owner care at start up, not warming engine and too High RPM or load on a cold engine.
You will not know the exact location of an internal leak until the engine is naked.
Think VERY carefully about doing this yourself...I can guarantee a failure...
Do a COMPLETE rebuild...I gather "salvage" title means you got it (RX-8) cheap?...so don't be cheap on the repair...
Frankly, it is not a task for "beginners", there are special tools, tolerances, methods of assembly...get any of this wrong, and you will be back taking the engine out/apart again..
Again, if you have $3K, I would be getting Paul at Mazmart a PM and get one of his rebuilds...
So given that it truly is cracked, the rotor housing should be the only part affected? So is it plausible to buy a new rotor housing and change it? (Since i've seen them from as low as $140 and up-wards to $250) or is there a chance that the problems so big to need an entire engine?
Coolant entry "generally" is a small leak between the "sandwich" plates or irons and a rotor housing, it can and usually is only one of the two rotor housings that leak coolant internally.
In most cases you get a slight "warping" of your rotor housing because of poor owner care at start up, not warming engine and too High RPM or load on a cold engine.
You will not know the exact location of an internal leak until the engine is naked.
Think VERY carefully about doing this yourself...I can guarantee a failure...
12-20-2009, 04:05 PM
#19
Ok Update:
I got the CEL codes checked, it came up with a misfire and a bad park to neutral sensor.
The froth on the dipstick tastes like coolant.
The experience and tools to do a home rebuild wont be a problem, I have plenty of very experienced guys that are willing to help me, it's just gonna be more of a learning experience for me.
And yes you were right in pointing out I was jumping to conclusions in saying it was cracked.
I don't plan on being cheap on fixing this problem, I'm just preparing myself for a worst case scenario and exploring all avenues I can take to get the same result for a better deal.
And once I can confirm what's wrong I'll for sure give Paul at mazmart a contact, thank you for telling me about him :D
I got the CEL codes checked, it came up with a misfire and a bad park to neutral sensor.
The froth on the dipstick tastes like coolant.
The experience and tools to do a home rebuild wont be a problem, I have plenty of very experienced guys that are willing to help me, it's just gonna be more of a learning experience for me.
And yes you were right in pointing out I was jumping to conclusions in saying it was cracked.
I don't plan on being cheap on fixing this problem, I'm just preparing myself for a worst case scenario and exploring all avenues I can take to get the same result for a better deal.
And once I can confirm what's wrong I'll for sure give Paul at mazmart a contact, thank you for telling me about him :D
12-20-2009, 04:28 PM
#20
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First call to MNA and ask them about the warranty. I remember that I asked them a couple months ago about the cars with the salvage title and they told me that every car have the warranty.
12-20-2009, 08:08 PM
#22
Lol very true.. Mine was a total loss cause somebody just scraped down the passenger side doors, they could've been bondo'd and been ok.
I'm gonna give the dealership a call tomorrow and see if i got a chance there since they were closed today.
Even though the warranty card in my glove box says that it's void if it becomes salvage, keeping in mind that's from 2005 and we all know how much the warranty regulations have changed since then for the rx8...
12-20-2009, 09:12 PM
#23
Super Moderator
Sweet, you sound like you are going in the right direction.....
IF, and only IF you attempt to do a rebuild yourself, just remember one thing...do it correctly and replace all the parts needed, generally all of the Apex, Corner, even Side Seals, def all the springs, Oil Control Rings, O Rings and Springs, Gasket Set, I would probably renew the Water Pump and Thermostat (Mazmart), get the Radiator checked out (should be OK, just flush it well), new Timing Cover and Rear Main Seal, Rotors should be OK when cleaned properly, Rotor Housings now if it is coolant entry you more than likely have a warped housing (not always), they are not cheap anymore. Also Stationary Gear Bearings and poss Rotor Bearings...
There is a right and wrong way to install almost all of these parts.
The good thing about Paul and Mazmart is they do a changeover service, with an engine built by one of USA's best rotary re-builders...
Paul and his team will never send you or tell you bad information.
Good Luck..
IF, and only IF you attempt to do a rebuild yourself, just remember one thing...do it correctly and replace all the parts needed, generally all of the Apex, Corner, even Side Seals, def all the springs, Oil Control Rings, O Rings and Springs, Gasket Set, I would probably renew the Water Pump and Thermostat (Mazmart), get the Radiator checked out (should be OK, just flush it well), new Timing Cover and Rear Main Seal, Rotors should be OK when cleaned properly, Rotor Housings now if it is coolant entry you more than likely have a warped housing (not always), they are not cheap anymore. Also Stationary Gear Bearings and poss Rotor Bearings...
There is a right and wrong way to install almost all of these parts.
The good thing about Paul and Mazmart is they do a changeover service, with an engine built by one of USA's best rotary re-builders...
Paul and his team will never send you or tell you bad information.
Good Luck..
12-20-2009, 11:11 PM
#24
Thanks for the reply ash :D very useful info.
I need to help my dad put the transmission back in his hummer since the old one crapped out, then I'll be able to use his shop to pull my engine once that monster is out of it.
In the mean time I got a week to price shop, get ideas and do my research. So far I've found a rebuild kit for about $1361 from atkins rotary. If the housing is warped then tack on another $631 each =\
I need to help my dad put the transmission back in his hummer since the old one crapped out, then I'll be able to use his shop to pull my engine once that monster is out of it.
In the mean time I got a week to price shop, get ideas and do my research. So far I've found a rebuild kit for about $1361 from atkins rotary. If the housing is warped then tack on another $631 each =\
