RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

So I'm usually advising people, but this one has me stumped.

IDENTIFIED twas the starter. Fried somehow. Have my old and REALLY weak one in that I never got around to throwing out. Barely cranks fast enough to start, but you can coax it.


Finished my Sevenstock trip Sunday, to and from work fine Monday and yesterday. Lots of rain, and when it isn't raining, the humidity is still 100%, condensing on everything.

Today, I go to leave for work, and the battery is dead. Just barely enough power to unlock the doors and faintly illuminate the dash lights. Nothing happens with key turnover. First thing I do is check around to see what might have been left on. Nothing. Every single thing was off. Interior lights, main lights, parking lights, heated seats,...nothing was left on. Odd.

So I grab my wife's keys, my jumper cables, and attempt to jump the 8 from her Mazda5.

The attempt to start with the cables hooked up had no change from before. The lights were on strong before starting, but just clicking, no cranking.

Letting off from the attempt to crank, my dash spazzed out. Like seriously. I grabbed my phone and took video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gehegeyu1OU

WTF? At the end when it stops spazzing, is when I attempted to start it again, while the key was to the "START" position, it stopped it's spazzing. Went back to it when I released it from the "START" position.

I then pulled the cables off, and the spazzing stopped. Reconnected the cables, no more spazzing at all, but still just clicking on attempting to start, no cranking.

Got my wife to get up and bring up the 5's revs for more juice, but still, just clicking, no cranking.

I have a good condition battery available from another member that went with a smaller race battery when he relocated his, so I pull out my existing battery (which was replaced last march), put in his battery, find out that it is dead too (no surprise really), reconnect jumper cables, and no change. Just clicking, no cranking.

So at this point I get a bit worried that it's the starter. I just replaced it in May or June from Mazmart. But the ground is soaking wet, I'm dressed for work, so I'm not crawling underneath to swap it out with my old weak one to see if there is a change.

So I start checking fuses. Every single fuse in both the kick panel and the engine panel are fine. Not a single one blown.




So I took my wife's 5 for the day, she is calling out. She hates her job anyway.


Any ideas other than the starter? I'm guessing that the condensation fried something, and I am praying it's not the ECU. It should be relatively dry when I get home tonight, so going to swap the starter with the old one and see if it cranks at all, even if weakly. To rule that in or out.

I do have an AccessPORT installed, in case there is something I can do with that for diagnosis.

HomicidalApple

iTrader: (3)

ah wow im sorry man... that really sucks... im about as stumped as you are

Im mainly posting to let you know the video is set to private so only people who added your youtube account as a friend can see the video, figured id let you know so when people wake up that would actually be a good help to you can actually see whats going on.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Oops, posted from my phone. I'll make the change. Thanks.

Fixed.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

It just occured to me, that the "spazzing" of the dash, every gauge went to max, and fluttered there. Gauges are voltage or current based, so that would mean that too high of voltage or too high of current was flooding into them, and pegging them against their limits.

Is this a reasonable guess? No idea how it would happen though, back to thinking condensation shorted something out.

fuztupnz

iTrader: (4)

Could be electrical. Double check all of your grounds before swapping starters again. I could see a loose ground causing craziness. I've never seen gauges do that though. Pull your ECU cover and make sure it's not damp in there and that all of it's connections are good as well.

That's about all i have. Pretty much a stumper.

Vlaze

iTrader: (14)

RIWWP, I can't see the vid at work but it sounds like you have the flickering/spazzing I did when reattaching the ground a few times during the many times I've disconnected it from the battery when installing stuff. Double check your grounds to make sure it's getting a good connection to the battery; it's what caused my problem.

*edit* fuz beat me to it

*double edit* I switched to IE to check the vid, looks very similar to what happened when my ground wasn't connected well enough a few times when I reconnected it to the battery.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Interesting.


The spazzing didn't continue with the 2nd alternate battery, so while that was troublesome, I think I can disregard that. Faulty ground connection on the original battery, but inherently fixed when I swapped batteries.

Still no crank, just click.


Agreed fuz, "something electrical" Just not sure what.

adamwzl

iTrader: (3)

man thats crazyy, hope all of us can help you get this fixed. I unfortunately have no idea.

Vlaze

iTrader: (14)

It could be something still within the ground technically speaking, just maybe not at the end that connects necessarily to the battery. Perhaps there's a loose connection somewhere. After all those miles it's possible something got loose somewhere and is causing havok. Or it could be you got the spazzing due to not properly connecting the ground, while the main root of the problem is another matter.

paimon.soror

iTrader: (15)

Does the Rx8 just tap the chassis right by the battery for its common ground ? I never really bothered to check. I remember my honda had a garbage gauge wire going from ground right to the frame.

maxxdamigz

iTrader: (1)

So first battery: mysteriously goes dead overnight, tried to jump, got random spazzing while connected, disconnected, spazzing stops, does not turn over.

Second battery: starts as dead, doesn't spazz, does not turn over.

I'm not sure how many CCAs a typical car battery does, but I do know when I used my brother's IS300 to jump my car, we needed to let it charge for 10-15 minutes and then hold the lexus at some decent RPMs to put out enough juice. My car, though, was notoriously difficult to start in the winter and it would crank over at any attempt, just not strongly enough.

I'd second the ECU box inspection, but I might be inclined moreso to check your fuse box in the engine bay for water. Maybe moisture did something to ground one of your +12v and drain your battery. Feeding the chassis +12 would screw up grounding. It could also be a poor ground, though likely a ground you've removed in the past rather than one you never have touched. Maybe also charge the batter for a bit before connecting it to your car.

fuztupnz

iTrader: (4)

Right, check all body grounds. All of those miles of grit and road **** might be corroding one of them.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Loose ground from something else...it's possible.


So the sequence of events when you start the 8:

1: Key moves to START
2: Electrical connection from battery to accessories is interrupted
3: Electrical connection is form, sending power from the battery to the starter
4: Starter spins the flywheel to turn over the engine
5: Ignition starts firing as the e-shaft sensor dictates
6: Fuel pump begins adding fuel
7: Fuel is ignited and engine starts
8: Release the pressure on the key, removing it from "START"
9: Electrical connection to accessories is reestablished

I think I got that basically right(?)

So I am definitely getting to #2, possibly to #3, but not really sure yet. #4 is not happening, as the engine is clearly not turning over.

If #3 is occurring, then it should be a problem with the starter. If #3 is not occurring, then there is a problem with the electrical connection that means that #2 isn't actually occurring either. I do not know what exactly is making the clicking noise I hear, still a bit fuzzy in my knowledge there.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Several responses while I was typing that....

I have not added, subtracted, or modified any OEM grounds at any point during the life of the car, so if there is a grounding issue, it will be with one of the OEM ground points and ground methods/wires/whatever.

Just getting stuff straight in my head. Helps when I type it out.

Fuse boxes were dry from what I could tell. All fuses were fine, nothing blown. Both panels.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

It does tap to the frame, however it also has grounds to the transmission, engine block, fuse boxes, and a few other accessories.


Weather is dry all day today, 78 degrees, so it should dry stuff out. If it starts fine when I get home, we can infer that existing moisture was causing a short. If it still doesn't, at least the ground is dry to start working through all the grounds and the starter.

Vlaze

iTrader: (14)

I can't hear sound from the video, but even without the spazzing, do you still hear clicking noises? Is it constant like; click---click---click? I heard that sound constantly with the ground issue, only the spazzing/flickering happened also. It was only the ground connecting at the battery that was causing the problem for me.

Mazurfer

Has nothing to do with your non-start now, but did you check to make sure that your trunk light was off? This will drain the battery overnight. I fugiure surely when you got home from the trip that you took stuff out of the trunk.....so............
Anyway.............back to the no start. I too and still thinking a possible grounding issue. I'm at work and not supposed to be one here, so I really can't go look up all the major grounding points, but think you need to check them. I know that there is one on the front cross memebr frame(I will callit), sort of underneath the airbox.

Trace them all back from the neg. battery terminal as well, check all the major grounding points.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Yes, it was clicking at the same time. I am convinced that it was the exact same spazzing that yours did. That side of it is suggestive only now though, in case there is another ground that did it. But if it was just the main ground, then that particular issue is resolved.

Trunk light? unless there is a switch that I am unaware of, the trunk was closed and locked.

Yeah, I will be checking them all at home after work.

Am slightly curious if maybe moisture shorted out the starter itself, drained the battery (it has a live power wire right down there), and once power is restored, the starter itself is gone.


At least everything is leaning away from ECU replacement. Because after the trip, I seriously can't afford to buy a new one for a few months. Getting a car loan and another car is easier.

Mazurfer

Don't want you to go off on a tangent due to what I said, but many times I have read/seen where the trunk light has stayed on because the trunk lid switch(on the trunk latch) was bad or sticky. This left the trunk light on, and would drain peoples battery overnight. Might want to look through the pass through and just make sure it's off.

Oh..........and on a completely different note, just because it popped into my head. Not sure it would cause the non-start you are describing, but clutch pedal/auto safety interlock switch issue? Shouldn't spazz out the dash though. Just a random idea.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

First off check voltage and get your battery tested and charged if it is good. Checking the ground is a good idea, maybe even run another temporary ground if you have some decent gauge wire. Don't jump to conclusion about the ECU. This car requires quite a bit if juice, I suspect a dead battery. Personally I would never jump start an 8.

Any way you can roll down the driveway and pop the clutch?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

My driveway is about 3 feet longer than the length of the 8, so that won't work

My comments on the ECU were more of a "well, I'm glad people aren't saying 'YER ECU IS TOAST!'"

If I can't find the issue tonight, I'll pull start it. If it starts fine, I'll take it on a drive to make sure the battery is charged up. Maybe to down to San Antonio or something. Something short like that anyway.

If it won't charge up, but runs fine, then I will agree that it's the battery, and buy a new one. Since it has been cranking just fine, and is only 6 months old, it should have some sort of warranty on it.

Jon316G

iTrader: (1)

I honestly just skimmed this thread... but you mentioned its "sequence of events" while starting.
What does it to when you turn the key to 'ON' instead of starting it?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

The sequence of starting is just trying to frame everything in my mind correctly, to pinpoint where the failure point is.

Checking the grounds, the starter, and pull starting it tonight should reveal the cause.

Jon316G

iTrader: (1)

You didn't answer my question bud....
Are the symptoms the same if you only turn the key to 'ON' and not start it?
This might tell you what circuit to focus on instead of chasing everything around the car.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Come on down man, the weather is phenomenal this time of year. We have a canyon run coming up, that will charge the **** out of your battery.

If the battery is that new and you did a cross country trip and it worked fine then I suspect the battery crapped out. I have had good experienced getting crappy batteries replaced so just take it in.