Blue cloud of smoke with rev. Please help!!!!
09-08-2010, 01:23 PM
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rblackx8
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Blue cloud of smoke with rev. Please help!!!!
Ok so I got my 8 last Friday and saturday I notice a cloud of Burt oil behind it when I revved the engine. It doesn't smoke if I tach it up and hold it but it does if I'm just revving. Plus it bogs down. Seems everytime I rev it hard it bogs. Idk if it helps but it has a gutted cat. Please help!!!!!!
09-08-2010, 06:02 PM
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rblackx8
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2004 70,000 miles. "oil changed every 3k" and cat was gutted. otherwise completely stock. and no i doubt he was premixing. im not sure what kind of oil he was using though. i asked him about it yesterday and said that its been doin it since he got it(9 months ago) but idk if im trustin him too much now.
09-08-2010, 06:17 PM
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rblackx8
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so maybe gettin a new cat then seein what i have? cause it didnt do it when i test drove it. it might just be because its cold and im not getting a chance to take it down the road.
09-08-2010, 07:08 PM
#7
Extraordinary Engineering
How's it running?
A new cat won't improve the car but if you want one get a high flow Davesport cat
Too much oil in the gas? Maybe it has a ton of oil in the tank
Have you checked compression?
Seafoamed? (de-carbon)
A new cat won't improve the car but if you want one get a high flow Davesport cat
Too much oil in the gas? Maybe it has a ton of oil in the tank
Have you checked compression?
Seafoamed? (de-carbon)
09-08-2010, 07:19 PM
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Blue smoke means oil burning, and there are only 3 reasonable ways to get lots of oil into your engine to burn:
1 - WAY too much oil in the gas tank (would generally have power problems)
2 - Oil overfilling into the intake bad (would have all sorts of unstable and unpredictable problems)
3 - Oil control ring failure (no apparent difference other than the smoke and higher oil consumption, usually smoke appears when you let off the throttle, as the vacuum is when oil gets pulled in, and off throttle means no fuel so only oil is getting burned)
The first 2 are easily verified or corrected. Don't put oil in the tank next time you fill up (let it get real low to burn out as much as possible if it's in there), and pulling apart the intake track to see if there is lots of oil residue or clumps of it. Oil in the gas is fine normally, even recommended, but in the right quantities. Oil in the intake messes with the intake valving and MAF, and can cause all sorts of issues.
If both of those are fine, or don't fix the problem, then it points to oil control ring failure, see what receipts you can get and get it to a dealer.
You can drive indefinitely on a rotary with one or more failure oil control rings as long as you keep the oil topped off. Let it go low and you have the same low oil problems or failure. If it smokes constantly or predictably, the dealer should be able to diagnose it as such and get you the engine. You are still under the 8yr 100k warranty on the engine.
1 - WAY too much oil in the gas tank (would generally have power problems)
2 - Oil overfilling into the intake bad (would have all sorts of unstable and unpredictable problems)
3 - Oil control ring failure (no apparent difference other than the smoke and higher oil consumption, usually smoke appears when you let off the throttle, as the vacuum is when oil gets pulled in, and off throttle means no fuel so only oil is getting burned)
The first 2 are easily verified or corrected. Don't put oil in the tank next time you fill up (let it get real low to burn out as much as possible if it's in there), and pulling apart the intake track to see if there is lots of oil residue or clumps of it. Oil in the gas is fine normally, even recommended, but in the right quantities. Oil in the intake messes with the intake valving and MAF, and can cause all sorts of issues.
If both of those are fine, or don't fix the problem, then it points to oil control ring failure, see what receipts you can get and get it to a dealer.
You can drive indefinitely on a rotary with one or more failure oil control rings as long as you keep the oil topped off. Let it go low and you have the same low oil problems or failure. If it smokes constantly or predictably, the dealer should be able to diagnose it as such and get you the engine. You are still under the 8yr 100k warranty on the engine.
09-08-2010, 09:58 PM
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rblackx8
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Wow thanks for the help guys.
Ok it runs fine and idles steady except for a little bump every now and again. I could fill the gass tank with gas if that would help and see what that does, maybe that would equal out the amount of oil and gas going into the housing. And I'm not sure if seafoam has been added. Is that a recomendation? And I have not yet checked compression.
Ok, the only actual powerproblem I'm having is the bog when I tap the gas pedal. But no lights or anything. I could check the intake but it hasn't had this problem before says the previous owner and if it were that then I don't see it happening just over night. And I did notice that smoke does come out after I let off the gas and my dip stick says the oil is about a quart low. (Shows how he took care of it). So I went and got the supplies for an oil change. Is that recomended? I just can't take it for a drive yet because I don't have tags or insurance on it yet. But that gives me enough time to test everything you guys are telling me.
Ok it runs fine and idles steady except for a little bump every now and again. I could fill the gass tank with gas if that would help and see what that does, maybe that would equal out the amount of oil and gas going into the housing. And I'm not sure if seafoam has been added. Is that a recomendation? And I have not yet checked compression.
Ok, the only actual powerproblem I'm having is the bog when I tap the gas pedal. But no lights or anything. I could check the intake but it hasn't had this problem before says the previous owner and if it were that then I don't see it happening just over night. And I did notice that smoke does come out after I let off the gas and my dip stick says the oil is about a quart low. (Shows how he took care of it). So I went and got the supplies for an oil change. Is that recomended? I just can't take it for a drive yet because I don't have tags or insurance on it yet. But that gives me enough time to test everything you guys are telling me.
09-08-2010, 10:20 PM
#10
Extraordinary Engineering
Do a bit of searching
There's a decarboning procedure specific to the rotary. Don't add it to the gas or the oil!
Perform the decarbon with Mazda Zoom cleaner or seafoam, get compression checked, clean the MAF & throttle body and change oil.
Get your compression numbers per rotor face, front and rear @ RPM and post them.
If you don't know when plugs, coils and wires were changed then get a set and change them. Use the forum vendors for good deals and do the work yourself using the DIY section.
Check the oil every other tank of gas and top up as required
Warm the engine carefully after starting, get the revs up over 7250 RPM during your daily drive once warmed up fully
Never shut off or flog the engine when cold
I've forgotten stuff so search for the new owner threads
There's a decarboning procedure specific to the rotary. Don't add it to the gas or the oil!
Perform the decarbon with Mazda Zoom cleaner or seafoam, get compression checked, clean the MAF & throttle body and change oil.
Get your compression numbers per rotor face, front and rear @ RPM and post them.
If you don't know when plugs, coils and wires were changed then get a set and change them. Use the forum vendors for good deals and do the work yourself using the DIY section.
Check the oil every other tank of gas and top up as required
Warm the engine carefully after starting, get the revs up over 7250 RPM during your daily drive once warmed up fully
Never shut off or flog the engine when cold
I've forgotten stuff so search for the new owner threads
Last edited by DarkBrew; 09-08-2010 at 10:26 PM.
09-09-2010, 05:53 AM
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rblackx8
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Thanks so much! So I guess the compression would tell me if the rotor housing is good or not. And its just a little tuning up and cleaning and it should be good? We have a compression tester at my house. Should I use that or go to the dealer for them to do it? Thanks man once again.
09-09-2010, 07:05 AM
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By pulling the engine out of the car and pulling the engine apart.
Or...
By looking behind your car at all the oil smoke.
As I said before: Rule out excessive oil in the intake and excessive oil in the gas tank, and if those 2 are ruled out, it's probably the oil control rings, so take it to a dealer to get their diagnosis. You are still under the engine warranty, so they should be able to get you a new one. Get as many service receipts as possible from the prior owner.
Standard compression testers don't return a value for each face of the rotor, and dealers are pretty much the only ones that have them. But... you can have great compression, but still have a failing or failed oil control ring. I'm not saying your compression is good or bad, it could be either. but with all that smoke, there is indeed something wrong, and these are the steps to address the cause of why there is oil smoke.
Or...
By looking behind your car at all the oil smoke.
As I said before: Rule out excessive oil in the intake and excessive oil in the gas tank, and if those 2 are ruled out, it's probably the oil control rings, so take it to a dealer to get their diagnosis. You are still under the engine warranty, so they should be able to get you a new one. Get as many service receipts as possible from the prior owner.
Standard compression testers don't return a value for each face of the rotor, and dealers are pretty much the only ones that have them. But... you can have great compression, but still have a failing or failed oil control ring. I'm not saying your compression is good or bad, it could be either. but with all that smoke, there is indeed something wrong, and these are the steps to address the cause of why there is oil smoke.
09-09-2010, 07:49 AM
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Ok so I looked up the carbonizing procedures and I could do that today. But do I use seafoam or the mazda zoom cleaner? (The guy was telling how to put it into the intake vacuum hoses. And I just watched a video on seafoam. My smoke was nothing compared to his.)
What's the best way to check the gas tank and the oil in it?
And there was no oil in the air filter. But idk about the IMF
What's the best way to check the gas tank and the oil in it?
And there was no oil in the air filter. But idk about the IMF
09-09-2010, 08:04 AM
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1: Seafoam is fine, and cheaper than Mazda Zoom cleaner, and I they they are essentially the same thing.
2: When I seafoamed, I didn't get much smoke...but when I shut off when cold I got lots and lots of smoke. Not every engine is the same...
This was just excess gas that took a while to burn off, not oil smoke (this was Monday for me)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lTt38qFTx4
3: No easy way to "check" the gas and gas tank. Just run it nearly empty, fill it with gas, don't add premix, see if you still get smoke after the first couple dozen miles. If it suddenly stops smoking, then it was too much oil in the gas, no harm no foul, you are good to go.
4: Oil generally doesn't get all the way up to the filter. It is usually in the accordion or farther back, with probably being if it is on the MAF sensor (plugged/screwed into the top of the accordion), and/or if it's back near the engine on the valving (which you have to remove the black plastic Upper Intake Manifold (UIM) to be able to check/see)
2: When I seafoamed, I didn't get much smoke...but when I shut off when cold I got lots and lots of smoke. Not every engine is the same...
This was just excess gas that took a while to burn off, not oil smoke (this was Monday for me)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lTt38qFTx4
3: No easy way to "check" the gas and gas tank. Just run it nearly empty, fill it with gas, don't add premix, see if you still get smoke after the first couple dozen miles. If it suddenly stops smoking, then it was too much oil in the gas, no harm no foul, you are good to go.
4: Oil generally doesn't get all the way up to the filter. It is usually in the accordion or farther back, with probably being if it is on the MAF sensor (plugged/screwed into the top of the accordion), and/or if it's back near the engine on the valving (which you have to remove the black plastic Upper Intake Manifold (UIM) to be able to check/see)
09-09-2010, 08:11 AM
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rblackx8
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Ok so all of that smoke coming out of yours is somewhat normal after seafoam? It didn't look or sound healthy. But if you say its normal then I'm game to try it.
09-09-2010, 08:16 AM
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No, I said THAT was from excess fuel. But seafoam will look similar, or only a couple wisps, or anywhere in between. I'm trying to say that every engine is different, so we can't predict how much seafoam smoke you will get.
My video was from so much excess fuel that it was having trouble idling. The rattling is unrelated, a piece of prototype resonator stuck in my cat back that rattles around.
It faded to only a bit of smoke after another minute or two, then when I took it out to the highway and stomped on it, the smoke disappeared entirely as the last of the excess fuel was forced out. The engine runs just fine.
Does your smoke look much more blue than that?
My video was from so much excess fuel that it was having trouble idling. The rattling is unrelated, a piece of prototype resonator stuck in my cat back that rattles around.
It faded to only a bit of smoke after another minute or two, then when I took it out to the highway and stomped on it, the smoke disappeared entirely as the last of the excess fuel was forced out. The engine runs just fine.
Does your smoke look much more blue than that?
09-09-2010, 08:18 AM
#19
Extraordinary Engineering
Seafoam is fun; here's a quote from my experience.
You need a friend to help.
Make sure the LIM vacuum nipples are easily removable so you aren't struggling in a parking lot with a hot engine.
Bring tools to remove the air box so you can reach the connector for the eccentric shaft sensor
You'll need about 4 feet of 5/32" vacuum hose.
Don't crank for more than 10 seconds at a time
Pull the hoses out of the seafoam when you're stop cranking.
WCS and I both got lots of smoke for about ten minutes... mine was white and his was a bit gray.
I really hope it's just too much premix causing your smoke.
But as RIWWP says, go through this systematically and you will know for sure.
So we did Seafoam last night...
Added premix... out for a spin.
With the cars warmed up;
We used a modified Seafoam method. We pulled the ESS, put vacuum lines on both LIM nipples and let the engine pull the liquid in. Cranking for 10 seconds at a time, waiting 1 minute in between. One can for each car. After a beer break (an hour or so) we fired up the cars and created a big smoke cloud.
Note: Cranking with ESS disconnected will throw a code so make sure you can clear it.
Added premix... out for a spin.
With the cars warmed up;
We used a modified Seafoam method. We pulled the ESS, put vacuum lines on both LIM nipples and let the engine pull the liquid in. Cranking for 10 seconds at a time, waiting 1 minute in between. One can for each car. After a beer break (an hour or so) we fired up the cars and created a big smoke cloud.
Note: Cranking with ESS disconnected will throw a code so make sure you can clear it.
Make sure the LIM vacuum nipples are easily removable so you aren't struggling in a parking lot with a hot engine.
Bring tools to remove the air box so you can reach the connector for the eccentric shaft sensor
You'll need about 4 feet of 5/32" vacuum hose.
Don't crank for more than 10 seconds at a time
Pull the hoses out of the seafoam when you're stop cranking.
WCS and I both got lots of smoke for about ten minutes... mine was white and his was a bit gray.
I really hope it's just too much premix causing your smoke.
But as RIWWP says, go through this systematically and you will know for sure.
Last edited by DarkBrew; 09-09-2010 at 08:30 AM.
09-09-2010, 08:33 AM
#20
rblackx8
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My smoke is darker than that. Blue and grey sorta. But the seafoam clears similar to yours I hope.
And yeah that quote was exactly what the other said to do. Thanks man.
And yeah that quote was exactly what the other said to do. Thanks man.
09-09-2010, 12:24 PM
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Haha yeah that's the way to ruin a romantic ice cream dinner. So I just ran it til it warmed up and it didn't smoke unless I reved it. But it smoke until it warmed up.
09-10-2010, 08:23 AM
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Don't have a pic handy, but if you follow the intake fromt he accordion, back towards the windshield, then curving left towards the passenger's side, the black plastic UIM forks into 2 prominent tubes that then curve downwards and meet up with the metal LIM. The LIM continues those 2 channels down in a slight curve that sharpens up as they turn in to meet the engine. The nipples are little black rubber caps, 1 per tube, on the metal LIM about halfway down from the UIM to the engine. They stick out horizontally towards the side of the car (passenger side).