paulmasoner

iTrader: (1)

my only issue with the bracket is the reasoning the OE braket is barely tack welded in the first place. Its meant to bend/break/give in a crash. Welding the bracket fixes our issues, and reduces the suggested safety feature to some degree or another I'm sure. But i'd bet it will still give on some level. The bracket I dont think would allow it to give any.

Plus welding it is just as quick and easy as the bracket, and free for many people to do.

Huey52

iTrader: (2)

^ Whereas true that automobiles are now designed to protect occupants, to that end with 'crush zones' being prevalent, a weak man-machine interface is a poor compromise imho. It's possible that your safety may be adversely affected by a snapping plate when underway. I'll take my chances with a reinforced clutch bracket that enhances my operational safety. I thereby just might avoid a crash and therefore have no need for this particular crush zone.

Race Roots

iTrader: (64)

It doesnt?

How come everyone that has purchased one never had any further issues of a snapping pedal?

Or the fact that people that snapped their pedals can buy this and the pedal works again...

If you want to say it doesnt work you need to have proof that it doesn't work.

Once again you are making theories based on assumption or purely doing so for being an ***. I am going with number 2.

ICM..right? Or was it ICE...

yokohamaboi

iTrader: (1)

FML clutch pedal just snapped right now, i barely made it home. Now im gonna be RX8less my clutch went to hell right now, syncros are now done for. I hate the situation i'm in. Now i need a new clutch pedal, new clutch,gonna get a flywheel combo, transmission is gonna need a new rebuild with fresh syncros :/ also im totally considering buying race roots clutch brackets and syncro savers, Brice as you know i need a pricing on clutch,flywheel,clutch bracket,syncro savers, MT90 oil.

Huey52

iTrader: (2)

^ Well, at least you have a good excuse for installing a lightweight flywheel since it'll be disassembled for the new clutch anyway.

HiFlite999

iTrader: (2)

With 12k miles on it, my factory bracket was in perfect shape as near as I could tell. However, it also had a squeak and was easily moved from side-to-side. Welding the base is not going to fix the fact that the thin metal has very little strength moving sideways in the "flat" direction. The bracket adds heft and triangulation that welding does not. Welding thin sheet properly is also a bit of an art, and if not done right it's easy to build in stresses and make the part brittle after welding and thus prone to cracking later.

I'm quite happy with the bracket. There's virtually no sideways motion or squeak in the pedal any longer and the clutch engagement feels more precise. This plus the synchro-saver gives a snick-snick feel to shifting that is very much more pleasant than before, rather like the difference between the "tink" of closing a Yugo door vs. the "thunk" of an Audi.

Better feel, more precise shifts, and most likely a reduction in expensive tranny, clutch, and bracket failure problems - what's not to like?

HiFlite999

iTrader: (2)

It's hard for me to see how that 'give' is intentionally engineered in, if, for not other reason, clutch brackets are not failing like this in other cars. If the clutch pedal comes back at your feet in a crash, at worst your foot pushes the pedal down just like we have to do a zillion times per commute anyway.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Nope. It doesn't.

Anecdotal. (and hearsay)

Also anecdotal.

Nope. One needn't prove a negative. The burden of proof is on you as you are asserting an outcome and, as is typical, you are selling over-priced "solutions" that don't actually solve anything.

That is because, as usual, it is easier for you to do this than actually addressing the needed data for your snake oil.

Vlaze

iTrader: (14)

Welding the base fixes the problem of it cracking, not the sideways movement.

For the alloy of metal they are using and thickness it's not that complicated, I've done thinner. MIG or TIG would fix it and not add stress like you think, unless one doesn't know what proper amperage, alloy or technique to use. This isn't cast iron in regards to creeping stress. In fact, I would be more worried over a thick piece for welding when worried about cracking, not thin because of penetration of the weld required.

For thin pieces I'd be worried about blowing right through the piece moreso than cracking.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Not true.

When it is welded properly, it creates a different box-section and the lateral movement is eliminated.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Just fix the pedal for starters . All the other symptoms may well dissappear once that is done .

Those people who think that welding the bottom plate to the pedal bracket does anything really want to have a good look at it and ask themselves how strong is a 0.5mm piece of sheetmetal . All that bootom plate is there for is to hold in place the firewall bosses and that little bkt that holds the shaft up as you install the thing . Welding the bottom plate solid to the bkt will do stuff all to strenghten anything .....

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Might want to have that same conversation with your hood, trunk, side sills, floor pans, brake pedal bracket, etc.

The thickness of the metal is not an issue - we are only putting a few dozen ft/lbs of torque on it.
It is the effective box-section that decides the strength.

Race Roots

iTrader: (64)

What are we in court? Seriously your comments can be considered hearsay as well if you were to play silly mind games as well.

You never cease to make me laugh.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

While your reasoning is ok - you are still wrong .
That plate under the bracket is little better than tissue paper for strength and the tack welds that hold it in place are a good indicator as to how much work the plate is expected to do - none.
The way these brackets fail is throught flexing of the L shaped piece that the bolt goes through . That part is simply not strong enough .
If the plate below it was made of 1.5mm or thicker I would agree that welding to it would be a benefit .

HiFlite999

iTrader: (2)

"our hood, trunk, side sills, floor pans, brake pedal bracket, etc." is not breaking.

The lower 'box' on the bracket adds something like 2-3 mm of metal to the 0.5 mm sheet. The stiffness of an I-beam goes up as about the 5th power of the increase of web thickness. Even being doubly conservative, that piece is increasing the stiffness by something like 4^4=256 times.

A direct comparison of welding vs. adding the bracket might be useful. However, it still doesn't eliminate the fact that most people don't have both the welding equipment and the skill to weld thin sheet in their garage, which means disabling the car and taking it to a shop for welding. Not everyone has an extra car sitting around to do that with. In contrast, anyone with a drill and a little aptitude can do their own bracket installation in an afternoon. Even assuming both techniques work as well, one person may choose one method over another based on their own situation. I made my choice, the bracket, others choose to weld. I am glad to have had the choice, and just because someone else chooses differently, doesn't mean they are idiots. It's called the free market (insert waving flag). If RR items are overpriced and useless (according to MM), the free market will put them out of business. Some call the BHR coil kits overpriced and useless, but I chose to buy them after doing what passes for research. I found very little in the way of facts or comparison testing on the BHR website itself to convince me to buy them. What did cause me to choose to do so were reports 'from the field' which you seem here to think are generated by the "clueless". The very process you depend on for business seems to be okay for you, but not okay for others. As a business, you are of course free to introduce a competing product at a lower price. You may also choose to employ the methods of negative advertising in advance of introducing your own product. The difference is of course that RaceRoots is not some faceless monolith, it's a guy or two. I suspect anyone producing parts for a car as rare as the RX-8 isn't gonna retire rich.

From my own point-of-view, anyone who tries to support such an unusual corner of the car universe deserves a measure of respect. To liken Brice to a snake-oil salesman for an honest attempt to solve a real problem with these cars is at least disrespectful, and, coming from another vendor with possible plans to introduce a competing product, suspicious in intent. From your technical discussions, I can see you're a smart guy, and have enjoyed those discussions. Opinions however, vary, and you are not the only smart guy in the universe, or even on these forums. (This opinion of course is easily discountable, since I just happily bought snake-oil from the snake-oil salesman - good for the digestion I hear.)

Tamas

iTrader: (1)

^^ agree 100%.

SilverEIGHT

"Snake oil", hummm, This has been some of the best snake oil I ever purchased. Weld and bracket has served me 30+ track events over the the last 2 years (yesterday was 2 years since it snapped). I have added about 40,000 miles on a firm clutch pedal. Much firmer than just the weld. I'm sure I would have done fine with just the weld but I do like the stiffer feel with the bracket. I would do it again.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

We already had a "competing product" out for years.
We withdrew it because it wasn't worth the effort.

Don't forget, this is a MazSport product, not a "Brice" product we're talking about, BTW.

FWIW, my 123,000 mile OE bracket was welded 60,000 miles ago and it is absolutely rock-solid on the street and track and cost, essentially, nothing.

yokohamaboi

iTrader: (1)

Yeah im gonna have a tow truck pick up my car tommorow T-T and have the new pedal under warrenty, my gears kept grinding in 4th. hopefully i can get everything fixed under warrenty hopefully they can squeese in a clutch, im gonna swap it out with a ACT and keep the stock one just in case if anything every happens.

HiFlite999

iTrader: (2)

In other words, you charged too little money for it to be worth your effort, but are critical of RRoots for charging more money so it is worth their effort. It seems like free enterprise in action to me. (insert waving flag)

Not sure I ever knew that. Looking through old posts, it seems MS went out of business in part due to taking people's money and not delivering the product in a timely fashion. When ordering the synchro-saver last time RR's Shipping Department managed to sent me the tracking number *before* I managed to fully pay for it. [ me: ---> :paypal ]

Glad to hear it, but nothing is free. At this point, I'd rather "waste" $50 than my time to run around and arrange getting the welding done for "nothing", which for most of us means hiring a welder to do the job. Can everyone duplicate the welding locations and technique used without having a shop or access to a skilled welder?

Besides, where is the comparison between your mod and stock in terms of deflections vs. sideways force on the pedal and the data including a stress analysis, yield strength and fatigue properties? Otherwise, quoting MM a few posts above, your evidence is "Also anecdotal." You often employ the same debating tactics that you deride when others employ them, not that I'm saying here that anecdotal evidence is entirely to be trusted. The value of such evidence depends on many factors that are hard to quantify. I believe your anecdote that welding worked for you. I also believe that the bracket worked for Silver8, and in both cases believe it because both of you seem to know something of what you're doing. However, I don't believe that because one technique worked, that the other is snake-oil. YMMV.

alz0rz

iTrader: (41)

Where is the term "snake oil" derived from?

SilverEIGHT

Just for the record, mine is both welded and bracketed.

Also, I suspect that MM has me on ignore since he never responds to me. I'm so disappointed!

SilverEIGHT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil

Race Roots

iTrader: (64)

Don can you post some pics of your welded assembly in this thread here: https://www.rx8club.com/race-roots-134/clutch-pedal-bracket-solutions-explanations-now-recall-194975/

SilverEIGHT

Sure, I'll have to do it this evening. Kind a busy right now.