Nedash

Hey guys,

First up: I have searched the board via the search function and google, but all it comes up with are threads concerning rough idle, not my particular issue.

So, here's my car's data:

-2004 192HP Renesis, regularly serviced at the stealership
-70.000km, first engine with fine compression - starts cold and warm without issues with the weaker starter
-Not even 500km ago I installed a complete BHR Kit (Plugs/Coils/Wires)
-last service 11/2012 without issues
-Engine is bone stock except for a K&N drop in filter and the BHR Kit

So, here's whats happened in a nutshell; please bear with me if I give too many details, but I figured it's better to list too much instead of too less:

Started the car cold (about -2 degrees C),, went to the bank and left the car running since it was not fully warm and left my gf in the car.
Thereafter went to the gas station and shut the car down (was now warm enough after 3km and about 5 mins idle.

We went on our way to the cinema and 10km later I entered the Autobahn and redlined her from 1st to 4th gear. Around redline in 4th gear I hear a clicking sound from the engine, which I figured to be the SSV.
Since I wanted to avoid any damage, I went off the gas and slowpoked to the cinema, the car now making a strange noise like a repetetive thudding from behind me.
It was only audible when the car was in gear and I engaged the clutch.

I couldn't pinpoint the exact location sadly, and it has been gone since then.

My real problem is that since this incident, I feel the car runs rougher in high RPMs than before and has changed its running sound.

I also have the tickering sound (like from the SSV) intermittently, but the SSV seems good and can be easily pushed in with 1 finger.

I do not feel a loss of power in any RPM range, and also my cat does not glow red.
It just sounds unhealthy to rev her above 5000 all of a sudden...

Already done:
-As I said, Plugs/Coils/Wires
-Visual inspection of cat, seems fine, I could still see the structure intact
-Cleaned MAF
-Reset both NVRAM and KAM while engine fully warmed up

So, wise people of the interwebs, what could possibly be the issue here?

Thanks for your input!

Edit: Also no codes stored.

Nedash

Doesn't anyone have any idea?

ShellDude

iTrader: (12)

SSV opens well before redline as does the APV. Even the VDI opens a bit below it.

Maybe you swallowed part of your CAT's honeycomb in your catback although I see you said you visually inspected it.

No blinking or constantly lit check engine light? At least that would indicate a misfire or a condition the ECU monitors... bah, see you added that too.

Oil blow by into your MAF? shh... got me there too

Running out of ideas and don't consider myself wise just yet.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

How does your clutch feel? Perfectly normal? I had a clutch disc shatter near redline on clutch in, though I could immediately feel it through the clutch pedal.


Is the clicking a high frequency click? It might be a plug wire has popped off. Check your plug wires, make sure all 4 are seated completely on both ends.

Nedash

Thanks,

The clutch feels perfectly normal, as does driving the car during lower revs.

Will check the plugs and coils again tomorrow, though I can't imagine anything popping off - those MSD wires are really hard to get on the plugs in the first place and I did it using a hoist.
But a popped off wire would be noticable in lower revs, too, or not?

The clicking was rather high frequence (I'd guess between 5 and 10 times a second) and seemed to originate from the right of the engine bay.

Nedash

When exactly does the SSV open? It wasn't exactly at redline, but around.
And as my 8 is. 192hp model, redline is at 7000 - so it might have started at 5000 already, at least that is the region where the noise starts now.

I have in the meantime watched a few videos on youtube about the SSV noise and it sounds quite similar - though as I said I can easily push it by hand.

I will check the cat once again, because I think my mileage went down quite drastically, so it might be the cat after all. Maybe I damaged it when removing it last time because it was quite rusty. Still wouldn't explain the tickering noise exept id it started happenig at the exact time coincidentally.

I will have to get the car through state inspection anyway this month and since it is a 04 they will use a sniffer for the emission test, so if the cat is the issue I should know latest by then...

What do the APV and VDI do exactly?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

It opens earlier than that. See the PDF I have attached to this post: https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discuss...4/#post3663975

Although this is the 6 port engine...
SSV opens at 3,750
VFAD opens at 5,500
APV opens at 6,250
VIV opens at 7,250

You have a 5speed 4 port right? So you won't have an APV, but you have the others. Reading the text next to the diagram, it looks like it implies that the VIV for you opens around 5,750, but no mention of a difference on the other two, so those are probably the same.

It might be a suddenly fail vacuum line, and suddenly failing to control one of the valves, and the vale is fluttering like crazy.

Just tossing out ideas.

Nedash

Yes, it's a 4 port 5 speed. So I don't have the APV and VFAD, which isolates the possible cause to the SSV or the VIV.

That actually makes sense, the lines seem old and brittle after 7 years.
Will get myself a proper vacuum tester and see if there are leaks (I only have an old vacuum pump around at the moment and it can't hold a constant vac, so no use ).

Thanks for the idea, hopefully you are right and I only need to replace some hoses

bse50

Check your coils and sparkplugs just in case one of them failed.

I would also check your compression, just 'cause. You may have heard some pinging... definitely not a good sign should that be the case.

Nedash

Will do, but as I said they're brand new.
Compression test will not be easy as stealerships in the vincinity are pretty clueless about how to test a rotary. But will try my best to get one done.

Still starts fine when hot, though. Even with the weak starter. Also still reaches 235kph without problems.

bse50

If adrenaline race in the uk didn't steal my compression tester i'd lend you mine
Contact vcoil (pm me if you need his email address), he's in luxembourg and might test your car.

I told you to test the coils because they're new. It's possible that you got a faulty one, in that case you'd experience BHR's good customer service

ShellDude

iTrader: (12)

Only thing missing from the 4 port is the APV as we have no auxiliary intake ports.

VFAD is way up by your intake box.
VDI is little duct inside the IM that's supposed to disrupt air at high RPM
SSV opens up in preparation for your secondary injectors kicking in.

All open about 700 RPM sooner on the four port, roughly proportional to the lower redline and with the exception of the VDI all well below redline.

Nedash

Okay, thanks for the explanation. I always thought only 6 ports had the VFAD

I will have the engine compression tested by a local guy from the german Forum next weekend as well as a thorough checkup including coils and plugs.


On another note, lately I also noticed a high pitched sound from the area of the air filter box, but can't remember if it has been there since I got the car or if it is new.
Probably I am just searching too much for everything that COULD be a failure by now...

Is this normal or could it really be related? ( ).
If so, what could if be? Even though I tried, I couldn't pinpoint it but it's best audible from right in front of the air filter box.

ShellDude

iTrader: (12)

Actually, you may be right. I don't remember ever disconnecting a VFAD on my 4 port. In the scheme of things its contribution is really minute... If I recall correctly it's main function is to keep intake roar to a minimum.

Trying to think what all might be up there to cause that sound and I'm coming up empty. I doubt it's from the actual airbox... there are just a handful of screens and baffles in there.

Nedash

I was thinking of maybe an airstream around some edge before the air enters the intake, but the noise seems too metallic for my ears...next thing that comes to mind would be checking the belts - I know the regular belt "chirp" sounds somewhat different and is not continuous, but it's worth a try.

Welp, maybe this is not part of my issue at all and I am just imagining things - I'll hopefully see next weekend.

I have to say I am very thankful for all the ideas, since it's my first rotary engine to take care of and some things that can go wrong are not all that obvious, even though I have read the stickies before I purchased her 2 years ago

Nedash

Update:

My compression is as

Starter RPM: 260

Front Rotor:

Chamber 1: 8,13 bar
Chamber 2: 7,97 bar
Chamber 3: 7,55 bar

Chamber difference: 0,58 bar
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rear Rotor:

Chamber 1: 7,28 bar
Chamber 2: 7,15 bar
Chamber 3: 7,00 bar

Chamber difference: 0,28 bar
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rotor difference: 0,85 bar
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Starter RPM: 250

Front Rotor:

Chamber 1: 7,89 bar
Chamber 2: 7,75 bar
Chamber 3: 7,34 bar

Chamber difference: 0,55 bar
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rear Rotor:

Chamber 1: 7,06 bar
Chamber 2: 6,93 bar
Chamber 3: 6,79 bar

Chamber difference: 0,27 bar
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rotor difference: 0,75 bar


Which I believe is pretty reasonable for an engine with 70.000kms without premix (to come after next sniffer test )

Coils, wires and plugs are fine (tested with timing light).

But on my way to the compression test I got my first ever CEL, which was a "catalytic converter - correction fuel mixture- too lean" or something along these lines.

It appeared after 200kms of straight Autobahn drive at about 130km/h while doing nothing except holding throttle constant and driving a straight line.

I realize this can be almost everything including fuel pump, but it has so far not come back, even though I took the exact same way back.

Side note, I got 12,6l/100km on both ways combined, which is about 19,5 mpg.
So I'd say if any of my problems is related to cat failure, it is very likely in its very early stages.

Nedash

Update: My car died on me last Friday on my way home from work.

While cruising city speeds, she suddenly didn't take any gas anymore and when I pulled over to the side of the road the engine died instantly.

Would start 1 or 2 times directly afterwards, but died again instantly.

1 time the engine started, revved to 2000, kept the revs there, started wildly fluctuating and then died again.

Now she is at the stealership waiting to be checked.

My money is on either the front O2 Sensor, something else cat-related or the fuel pump.

Strange thing is there is no CEL whatsoever.

Any ideas that don't involve catastrophic engine failure? (I can't imagine my engine going out on me with 70.000kms and above compression values. I didn't hear any unusual noises from the engine either.)


In other news, the tow truck ripped out the outer part of the front tow hook thread because the driver didn't screw the hook in deep enough, and that while the car was towed onto the trailer. Bad day.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, that sounds like a fuel pump failure at this point. Or something is physically clogging your fuel line.

Nedash

It was allegedly the BHR Kit that died together with my battery for unknown reasons.

I had the shop put in OEM Coils today and could take the car home after 2 weeks.
It ran, which was at least something.

At home I opened the hood and found following noise, which has definitely not been there before:


Needless to say I will bring the car back tomorrow first thing.
I am furious. 2 weeks to diagnose coils and now they give me back a car that sounds like a tractor.

WreakLoosE

That sir is the SSV Actuator arm noise...

Nedash

That was one of my first thoughts, too.

It is not.

Noise stays the same with SSV fully triggered or not.
(If it was a failing SSV, the noise should be gone when pushing the SSV in by hand, no?)

The noise seems to originate from the lower part of the engine directly behind the pulleys, but I couldn't pinpoint it in the dark.

Fact is: It hasn't been there before - and only coils were changed.

WreakLoosE

bad water pump? hopefully?

Nedash

I honestly don't know.

At least I have a video on my youtube account to prove that the noise wasn't there before the repair.

But when everything was fine before the repair - which it was - I don't know what they could possibly have broken.

If this was a piston engine, I would guess ignition timing was f'd up, but this has never been an issue with the Renesis, has it?

Anyway, the stealership will have to figure it out, since they broke it.

I also think the car somehow felt more "sluggish" on my 15km way home, but I could have as well been imagining that. I hadn't driven the 8 since more than 2 weeks...

Edit: Also worth noting, that after shutting the car down (warm!) and starting again, the noise was really quiet at first and became more obvous only with 1 or 2 minutes time.

Nedash

Quick update:

Now that I have working interwebs again (yay me!), I can "solve" the issue.
The car has died on me in late August 2013 with only 75.000km run.

Diagnosis:

Bearing damage (probably the rear one judging by the compression values).
From the amount of chippings in the oil pan it looks like the bearing does not even exist anymore.

The car finally died on me in August 2013, about 500m before reaching my new appartement on the last haul with the rest of my stuff.

I only figured out something was wrong when she did not accept any gas anymore and did not go above 120km/h - she died at the next traffic light and I could push her off the road with some friends. Got towed to the dealer after.

At 250rpm, the compression readings were around 4,5-5,0 with only 3,5 on 2 sides of the rear rotor, and upon removing the oil pan, there were so many (un-magnetic) chippings, that at least one bearing must be totally gone.

I have no idea why this happened so quickly; I have always paid attention to keeping the oil level a bit above medium.
Maybe the chipings blocked the flow, who knows
Beginning of 2013 the compression readings were still quite satisfactory.

Once my old engine is taken apart, I will get pictures from the inside.
I figure something must have been wrong with the oil circulation (bad pump/bad injectors/flow blocked)...

Wait and see.

Of course all vital parts, including water pump and engine mounts will be checked and replaced if needed.