Need sdvice
05-30-2012 | 04:59 PM
#1
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Need sdvice
Hi, this is my first post and im looking for engine advice. I just purchased a 2005 non turbo and the fellow told me the engine was shot.
The previous owner had it in for a routine oil change and the tech forgot to drain out the old oil then added another four liters, about two weeks later it started to act up and long story short the dealer says the apex seal or seals are toast.
I drove the car home today and it runs great in higher rpms however it tries to stall at lower rpm and is hard to start when hot. My question is should I look for another engine or put the seals in myself. I am pretty handy around cars but dont know what it would cost me to repair the current engine. Does anybody have any idea of what it would cost me if I repair myself.
The previous owner had it in for a routine oil change and the tech forgot to drain out the old oil then added another four liters, about two weeks later it started to act up and long story short the dealer says the apex seal or seals are toast.
I drove the car home today and it runs great in higher rpms however it tries to stall at lower rpm and is hard to start when hot. My question is should I look for another engine or put the seals in myself. I am pretty handy around cars but dont know what it would cost me to repair the current engine. Does anybody have any idea of what it would cost me if I repair myself.
Last edited by zoom44; 06-15-2012 at 09:41 AM.
05-30-2012 | 05:06 PM
#2
1) Yes, the engine does sound like it has low compression. The hot start problem is one of the key traits that isn't usually associated with any other problem, unlike rough idle.
2) You can't simply "put in the seals", since getting access to the seals requires a complete engine teardown, which means a complete engine rebuild to put it back together. To get an idea of what is involved, check out this thread: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/complete-engine-teardown-bare-shortblock-how-pictures-178945/
This is another useful thread: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/rx8ers-rebuild-thread-231522/
Also, read this thread before you consider rebuilding it yourself: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/read-me-considering-rebuilding-your-engine-231883/
3) Rebuilds can cost between $2,500 and $10,000 (USD), depending on the quality you shoot for. The cheapest quality reman you can get is from Mazmart for about $3,500. Mazda will charge you more for lower quality.
4) no need to make your post in bold. We see it either way.
2) You can't simply "put in the seals", since getting access to the seals requires a complete engine teardown, which means a complete engine rebuild to put it back together. To get an idea of what is involved, check out this thread: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/complete-engine-teardown-bare-shortblock-how-pictures-178945/
This is another useful thread: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/rx8ers-rebuild-thread-231522/
Also, read this thread before you consider rebuilding it yourself: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/read-me-considering-rebuilding-your-engine-231883/
3) Rebuilds can cost between $2,500 and $10,000 (USD), depending on the quality you shoot for. The cheapest quality reman you can get is from Mazmart for about $3,500. Mazda will charge you more for lower quality.
4) no need to make your post in bold. We see it either way.
05-30-2012 | 05:16 PM
#4
Yup, here you go: engine removal
05-30-2012 | 05:33 PM
#7
The 2004 and 2005 Automatics have 4-port engines
The 2006 through 2008 Automatics and 2004 through 2008 Manuals have 6-port engines.
The series 2 (2009+) engines are incompatible with series 1 RX-8s.
The 2006 through 2008 Automatics and 2004 through 2008 Manuals have 6-port engines.
The series 2 (2009+) engines are incompatible with series 1 RX-8s.
05-30-2012 | 05:34 PM
#8
Depends on the year 
04/05 automatics had 4 port engines and 06+ have 6 port like the MT cars.
04-08 MT 6 ports are basically the same and compatible.
09-11 have different engines that are not compatable with the 04-08 cars
04/05 automatics had 4 port engines and 06+ have 6 port like the MT cars.
04-08 MT 6 ports are basically the same and compatible.
09-11 have different engines that are not compatable with the 04-08 cars
05-30-2012 | 05:55 PM
#10
The problem is that there are numerous differences, not just the mating surface. ECU is different, wiring harness, fuel injectors, intake valving. You CAN make it work, but the cost is going to add $3,000 to $5,000 to the total.
As a 2005 AT, your only options are 4-port engines from 2004 or 2005 ATs without lots of extra money.
As a 2005 AT, your only options are 4-port engines from 2004 or 2005 ATs without lots of extra money.
06-01-2012 | 03:23 PM
#14
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Thank you for the tip
Called Mazda ( Halifax, Canada) today and they said that RX8'S from 2004 and up have a 160,000km warranty or 96 months whatever comes first. Im going to try next week and will keep you posted. Thank you a 1000 times over.
06-07-2012 | 08:52 AM
#16
Don't just roll over. Give it a shot anyway. "Proof" is reasonably hard to obtain if you are a recent owner. The dealer may give some lee-way in this regard. Oil change frequency is also not an inherent cause of engine failure. It can be, but not a seal wear issue. Oil problems cause bearing failure and engine seizure, not seal wear. The oil change history is just an incidental ask. If they wanted information relevant to failures due to seal wear, they would ask for a record of premix, oil injector line cleaning, and decarbing (which are the best shots we have at addressing the two biggest causes of seal wear).
06-08-2012 | 04:38 AM
#17
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Ok, I will ask dealer about the seals. Is there a way that the technician can tell the difference between the two by doing a compression test. I know with conventional engines if you dump some oil in the cylinders on a engine with low compression it will bring up the reading on your compression guage to tell wether its the rings or valves. The technician did say something about the seals but never wrote it up as such, he wrote it up as this
Recommend doinq compression test on both rotors.
Performed compiessibn test :
Chambef 1; 1r 3.4kolcm2 II - 7.4kq/cm2 III - 3.5kq/cm2
Chamber 2i I - 5.7,8k4/em2 Ir - 6.6k!'/cm2 IrI - 7.2k!'/cm2 Min soec is 6.9ko/cm2'
Rcoecsot ftfioe nrde prel'apelaec iirq enqine, and qasket kit. en$ine"$5,272. 36"kms
I will try to get him to send it to manufacture as seal failure and not the rotor wear. The dealer seems quite willing to help because I think they want the work however its Mazda Canada thats being hard to convince.
Ok, just found the answer to my question. While doing the compression test you should see three pulses on each chamber and they should all read the same, within reason however, if you get one or two strong and one or two weak its the apex seal. As you can see in the techs results chamber 1 had good compression on one side of the rotor and low on the other two pointing to the apex seal.
Recommend doinq compression test on both rotors.
Performed compiessibn test :
Chambef 1; 1r 3.4kolcm2 II - 7.4kq/cm2 III - 3.5kq/cm2
Chamber 2i I - 5.7,8k4/em2 Ir - 6.6k!'/cm2 IrI - 7.2k!'/cm2 Min soec is 6.9ko/cm2'
Rcoecsot ftfioe nrde prel'apelaec iirq enqine, and qasket kit. en$ine"$5,272. 36"kms
I will try to get him to send it to manufacture as seal failure and not the rotor wear. The dealer seems quite willing to help because I think they want the work however its Mazda Canada thats being hard to convince.
Ok, just found the answer to my question. While doing the compression test you should see three pulses on each chamber and they should all read the same, within reason however, if you get one or two strong and one or two weak its the apex seal. As you can see in the techs results chamber 1 had good compression on one side of the rotor and low on the other two pointing to the apex seal.
Last edited by kboom36; 06-08-2012 at 05:00 AM. Reason: found my answer
06-08-2012 | 09:01 AM
#18
I wrote this yesterday for another unrelated issue:
Doing anything with the seals requires an engine rebuild. Look at some pics of an engine in 'exploded view' to grasp why.
The warranty covers the entire engine block. Housings, plates, rotors, and seals. The only way to tell if the seals are failing is with a compression test. And it doesn't tell which seals are failing or why.
However, if your engine is still running smoothly and you have low compression the seals are just worn. Destroyed seals will make your engine "lumpy" and barely driveable due to all the internal damage it would cause. At the time of the event you would have felt the destruction, and possibly even heard the seal bits rattling through the exhaust. This would also destroy other seals in the process from the debris. At this point, you wouldn't be able to start it, and would only be able to keep it running with LOTS of throttle usage and keeping the RPMs higher than ~7,000 (enough natural compression to keep firing at that point, depends on which seals are still intact). Though all the air and fuel you are dumping in is largely getting wasted in combustion, as most of the combustion would be occurring in your exhaust, superheating the entire exhaust system to the point that it glows bright red and starts catching your car on fire unless (in theory) you can keep at high enough speed for the air flow to make enough of a barrier to the heat. If you hunt around you can find people on here that had multiple apex seal failure at once (usually from one seal taking out additional seals), and kept it driving, but the exhaust heating up lit their car on fire when they came to a stop. Usually the rear bumper.
Nothing you have mentioned suggests any of this.
The warranty covers the entire engine block. Housings, plates, rotors, and seals. The only way to tell if the seals are failing is with a compression test. And it doesn't tell which seals are failing or why.
However, if your engine is still running smoothly and you have low compression the seals are just worn. Destroyed seals will make your engine "lumpy" and barely driveable due to all the internal damage it would cause. At the time of the event you would have felt the destruction, and possibly even heard the seal bits rattling through the exhaust. This would also destroy other seals in the process from the debris. At this point, you wouldn't be able to start it, and would only be able to keep it running with LOTS of throttle usage and keeping the RPMs higher than ~7,000 (enough natural compression to keep firing at that point, depends on which seals are still intact). Though all the air and fuel you are dumping in is largely getting wasted in combustion, as most of the combustion would be occurring in your exhaust, superheating the entire exhaust system to the point that it glows bright red and starts catching your car on fire unless (in theory) you can keep at high enough speed for the air flow to make enough of a barrier to the heat. If you hunt around you can find people on here that had multiple apex seal failure at once (usually from one seal taking out additional seals), and kept it driving, but the exhaust heating up lit their car on fire when they came to a stop. Usually the rear bumper.
Nothing you have mentioned suggests any of this.
06-08-2012 | 01:39 PM
#19
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The car believe it or not starts fine when its cold and runs great until it warms up then it starts sputtering at red lights and stop signs but if you put it into neutral or keep one foot on the brake and the other on the gas you can keep it going until the green light. Once you start to pull away it takes a little while to get up to speed then your ok to kick it down to pass. I can drive the city and highway speed limit but dont shut it down warm or it will not start then you flood it due to the low compression. Im hoping to hear from the dealer today on Mazda Canada's decision. The service advisor has most, not all but most of the oil change history for the car and seems optimistic.
I forgot to mention the service advisor did say that the apex seal was like the seal in a trucks rear end ( almost a lip seal) and they can wear out.
I forgot to mention the service advisor did say that the apex seal was like the seal in a trucks rear end ( almost a lip seal) and they can wear out.
Last edited by kboom36; 06-08-2012 at 01:49 PM. Reason: mispelling
06-08-2012 | 01:57 PM
#20
The apex seals are at the tips of the rotors. They do quite a bit of moving. Note, this is an RX-7 engine, as the exhaust ports are on the rotor housing. The RX-8 exhaust ports mirror more like the intake ports, only lower on the side/end plates.
06-08-2012 | 03:21 PM
#21
Ok, I will ask dealer about the seals. Is there a way that the technician can tell the difference between the two by doing a compression test. I know with conventional engines if you dump some oil in the cylinders on a engine with low compression it will bring up the reading on your compression guage to tell wether its the rings or valves. The technician did say something about the seals but never wrote it up as such, he wrote it up as this
Recommend doinq compression test on both rotors.
Performed compiessibn test :
Chambef 1; 1r 3.4kolcm2 II - 7.4kq/cm2 III - 3.5kq/cm2
Chamber 2i I - 5.7,8k4/em2 Ir - 6.6k!'/cm2 IrI - 7.2k!'/cm2 Min soec is 6.9ko/cm2'
Rcoecsot ftfioe nrde prel'apelaec iirq enqine, and qasket kit. en$ine"$5,272. 36"kms
I will try to get him to send it to manufacture as seal failure and not the rotor wear. The dealer seems quite willing to help because I think they want the work however its Mazda Canada thats being hard to convince.
Ok, just found the answer to my question. While doing the compression test you should see three pulses on each chamber and they should all read the same, within reason however, if you get one or two strong and one or two weak its the apex seal. As you can see in the techs results chamber 1 had good compression on one side of the rotor and low on the other two pointing to the apex seal.
Recommend doinq compression test on both rotors.
Performed compiessibn test :
Chambef 1; 1r 3.4kolcm2 II - 7.4kq/cm2 III - 3.5kq/cm2
Chamber 2i I - 5.7,8k4/em2 Ir - 6.6k!'/cm2 IrI - 7.2k!'/cm2 Min soec is 6.9ko/cm2'
Rcoecsot ftfioe nrde prel'apelaec iirq enqine, and qasket kit. en$ine"$5,272. 36"kms
I will try to get him to send it to manufacture as seal failure and not the rotor wear. The dealer seems quite willing to help because I think they want the work however its Mazda Canada thats being hard to convince.
Ok, just found the answer to my question. While doing the compression test you should see three pulses on each chamber and they should all read the same, within reason however, if you get one or two strong and one or two weak its the apex seal. As you can see in the techs results chamber 1 had good compression on one side of the rotor and low on the other two pointing to the apex seal.
only option is rebuild/replace. lets see what Mazda Canada will do for u.
