Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Normal - unless you really had to torque the bolts down hard to get the trans and g/box together ?

Cam

iTrader: (1)

I have no rotary build experience, but from what ive read it sounds like Steve Kan is trying to get out of his responsibility for this mistake.

All the experienced builders here say its a "stacking" mistake, which makes this Kans mistake and financial responsibility.

However he's trying to convince you its either a shipping mistake, not his responsibility, he'll probably tell you to file a claim with the shipper. Or he's saying its an install mistake, YOUR mistake, again not his responsibility.

Im not sure what route you should take, but it sounds as if he's steering you towards a "diagnosis" that he is not responsible for.

Phish806

iTrader: (4)

I can see how you would see this. Actually, this is not true. There is alot of talks and conversation between steve and i that have gone on that are not mentioned on here. He has offered and still plans on sending me all the parts to fix the front stack and everything needed. He is just trying to make sure that there was not a bigger problem involved in the motor that caused this.

There is reason to believe its not a stacking issue because the spacer has no wear on it at all. Noone here yet has said they have seen a stacking issue where the spacer was in perfect condition such as mine is, and i have asked several times if anyone has seen it. Noone has said they have yet. Also, the plate that has a crack in it would not typically be caused by a stacking issue. The plate cracking would also point to somthing bigger.

He agrees that once the needle bearing went to **** that the bearign being pretty much gone woudl cause the stationary gear bearing to be the way it is. Again jsut looking for hte main cause of why all of this happened.

He has been talking to different shops and builders trying to figure all of this out and refering them to these pictures and gettign the differnt theorys. He is not the one coming up withe the theorys that are "pushign blame off of him", other people are. He has never once tried to say its my fault or that it has nothing to do with him and how it was buit. Its more about fixing the problem then with the blame game with him.

Phish806

iTrader: (4)

Your plate is not cracked. Just badly burned. I dont have the bad burn marks, just the cracked plate

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Badly burned causes cracks...think brake rotors

shadycrew31

iTrader: (6)

That wasn't mine that was another one Rotary Resurrection cracked open.

Point is its not that uncommon and its a newb mistake that I'm sure Steve is trying to skirt around.

Phish806

iTrader: (4)

Really dont think its burned that bad to be cracked. However, anything is possible i guess. there are a couple other builders taking a look at pictures tonight. I am awaiting to see what they say. Just want as many opinions as possible before i tear this thing out.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (3)

Can we see pics of the rear thrust bearing? That will tell the story.

If it was a stack/assembly issue, then the imprint of the spacer would be pressed into the thrust bearing, like so. Here's pics from an engine sent to me with this failure of a DIY rebuild attempt.





And usually, likewise, the imprint of the thrust bearing rollers will also be on the spacer. Here's a pic of a different spacer from a different engine with this issue due to a botched front cover gasket install.



Also, in the pic of the rear thrust washer, you can see the needle imprints. If you notice, they are PERFECTLY CENTERED. If the bearing had fallen down out of center, then the imprint would not be centered, would it? No, it would look like this...a pic of a similar actual failure in another engine, with the needle marks out of center.




Saying that there could have been damage in shipping is not necessarily the builder trying to dodge responsibility. Shipping companies are rough on stuff. Depending on how securely it was palleted, I've seen forklift drivers come around corners with stuff, or hit the brakes really hard, and sling it right off the pallet. Then throw it back on the pallet and go on their way as if nothing happened. I can see thrust bearing and plate damage happening easily if an engine were dropped or impacted on either end of the shaft.

Likewise it is not outside the realm of possibility to damage an engine with a crowbar while trying to fit it into an engine bay, or hammering on the flywheel trying to get it off.

I would say that builder error is normally much more likely than shipping damage, install damage, or flywheel removal damage. BUT, I do not see the imprint on the spacer that I would expect to see if it were installed on top of the thrust bearing and torqued down, and we haven't seen pics of the rear thrust bearing race to determine if there is a flattened section indicating the spacer being installed on top of it. Without that very important pic I am not sure we can say for sure.

Phish806

iTrader: (4)

i posted a pic of the rear thrust bearing.... actually two... hear they are. dotn think they help ya much though lol

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (3)

Also as for what to do...you've already examined the front main bearing which would be the first to see damage. It looks okay from what I can see. I'd reinstall it after cleaning it and lubricating it again. Then install new thrust components and reassemble it. IF the front main bearing and front eshaft main journal has no damage, then the rest of the engine will be fine also.

Phish806

iTrader: (4)

There is exxcessive wear on the front main bearing inside the statiionairy gear. There is a portion of copper showing. it was replaced new and would need to be replaced again. There is a bearign imprint on the washer but no imprent or markings at all on the spacer...

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (3)

Which would suggest that the spacer never touched the thrust bearing, yet some other force imprinted the rollers into the spacer.

If that's all that's left of the thrust bearing, I dont think it's possible to say for sure.

IF the front main bearing was damaged, look closely at the shaft journal for damage with a light and a mirror, but DO NOT rotate it without the gear/bearing in place.

Also, this doesnt help you any at this point, but as a builder I can tell you that IF there is endplay when the engine is assembled and the main front bolt tightened, then there is NO chance of incorrect assembly or a slipped thrust bearing. IF you have no endplay then there can be a problem. OF course, only the builder knows whether or not there was in this case. In general, the remaining engine builders these days have been doing it for years, and hundreds or thousands of engines, and we're not in the habit of being careless with our work and livelihood and the reputation we've built up over the years. Everyone makes mistakes, sure, but it's quite unlikely.

Phish806

iTrader: (4)

So RR, what would be your theory on what happened here??

Rotary Sensei

The damage wasn't from a dropped bearing during assembly, when that happens you see the results in the pics from RR. The bearing either failed (I've seen it but very rarely) or the engine was dropped/hit etc. damaging the bearing.

Make sure there are no shavings in any part of the oil cooling system. Flush the system, well.

Phish806

iTrader: (4)

Another discussion that i had with Steve earlier today was the posibility of the bearing jsut acutually being a bad bering. he said it would be very rare but could happen. Also discussed the possibility of somethign getting into the bearing causing issues with it. I should knwo more tomorrow on what the plan is.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (3)

A simple bad thrust bearing would not imprint itself into the thrust washer that way. It took an impact of some sort to do that.

shadycrew31

iTrader: (6)

Yea I only have gone through it once. I was hoping RR would come save the day! Hopefully we can finally put this to rest.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (3)

Well, I dont think we will ever know why it happened. BUt the fact that the imprint of the bearing needles are in an exactly centered position on that thrust washer, plus the lack of any needle marks on the spacer, tell me that the spacer was not installed and crushed onto the bearing during assembly.

OP, if you need any of the thrust parts I will give them to you free to help you get back on the road. If the shaft looks okay once you wipe it clean and examine it with a light and mirror, then I'd change that front bearing and reassemble it. Run a cheap oil change through it for 30 minutes then change it again.

This is making the assumption that the rest of the bearings are still okay.

Do you have any better, less reflective, pics of the front main bearing?

shadycrew31

iTrader: (6)

A few possibilites

1. Wrong end play spacer was used (doubtful).

2. A glitch in the install.

3. Im clueless after that

Somehow the e-shaft was pushed forward so much that the bearing had no where to move so it just ground itself down and died.

That explains one problem the other is the wobbling pulley, even if it were slammed all the way forward would that cause a pulley wobble?

Also when I did my install I made sure that the trans was mated before I put any bolts in, it was a little more time consuming but well worth the trouble.

Here is my new theory...

The propeller shaft goes in at a small angle this causes the transmission to almost mate up, then the installer decides it to close to pull out so they begin tightening bolts.
The propeller shaft gets forced in, again at a very tiny angle pushing the e-shaft forward and it smashes the bearing against the thrust plate. this also moves it slightly off of balance causing damage to the front stationary gear as seen in the pic's. the wobble appears because the bearing is now gone from the front stack allowing the front stack to move slightly.

P.S. if I have grammar errors its becuase I'm dead tired, goodnight.

Phish806

iTrader: (4)

If this was caused by the input shaft being "forced" into the motor. Then would simply replacing the front stack and the main bearing fix the issue. Woudl the shaft still be pushing it forward now or would it have released pressure now that its correctly mated up. Even though the pressure is now released the damage had already been done?

Basically i am asking if i would need to pull the motor to check the back of the e shaft, or if it should be good to go if the bearings and stack were just replaced.

Phish806

iTrader: (4)

The damage to the front main bearing would have been caused after the thrust bearing was destroyed. Giving it lots of endplay room to do its own thing inside the bearing.

shadycrew31

iTrader: (6)

Id give it another go and re-mate it. I'd also closely inspect the propeller shaft and pilot bearing for damage.

Again that was just a theory of mine.

Phish806

iTrader: (4)

I dont think it would have crushed the pilot bearing or anything. It would have jsut put pressure on the back side of the e shaft forcing it forward into the thrust bearing. I believe that once it was fully mated it would no longer be having the forward pressure.

Dont believe i am going to pull the motor just to inspect the pilot bearing. I believe that if i just replace the needed stack parts and the front main bearing i should be ok. If it happens again, the motor will then come out and the transmission side of things will be inspected.

On a side note, will i need a specal tool to remove and install the bearing inside the stationary gear? Like the one atkins sells for $60 bucks. Not really wanting to fork out the cash for a tool but if i have to i have to i suppose.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (3)

Look at it this way.

If the rotor bearings, rear main bearing, or shaft are messed up now, you have little to lose by putting it back together and running it. If it fails, then you are no worse off...you have to pull the engine and tear it apart which you would have done anyway and it doesnt really matter. If it doesn't, you are better off.

I do not think you'd have any problems with a pilot bearing, trans input shaft, or driveshaft.

You dont need a bearing press tool, but you do need a press. You can take the new bearing and put it on top of the old one, then use something else to press on the new bearing, and press it right in that way. Bearing installs are easy to **** up though. IF you want to buy a new bearing and send it, plus your old gear/bearing to me, I will press the new one in for you for free and send it back, you just pay the shipping.

Phish806

iTrader: (4)

The something on top of the new bearing would be somthing like a small block of wood. I think i can handle it. Or hope i can anyway. Once hte stationary gear is removed, the rotor should not drop or anything as long as i do not touch the e shaft correct? i dont and to take it out then have it drop if i run to a freinds and use thier press.