lethologica

I have got a 2004 Manual Transmission GT. About 22,000 miles on it now. I have had it for about 18 months.

I have never flooded the car, nor do I think it is flooded now.

This morning I drove the car to work, no problems.
Then I drove to lunch, no problems.
After lunch, I tried to start it. The first few starts I held it for about six seconds. Then I started holding it longer. It would crank and it sounded like it wanted to turn over but it was just a hair too short. It took about fourteen cranks to get it to go. I just had a gut feeling that it wasn't flooded so I didn't try the deflooding procedure.

I started to drive back to work. About a mile later, it stalled. I am pretty sure it wasn't because of me, but I was paying much more attention to the way the car was driving then my shifting. It took about eight cranks to get it to go.

So once I got going again I decieded to run it at high RPMs to knock out any carbon or anything that could be clogging up the engine. I kept it in first gear at about 7 to 9 grand. After a minute of this the Check Engine Light came and was flashing. After that I stopped with the high revs. The light went off after about a minute.

So I got back to work and let it sit for about twenty minutes. I went out and tried to start it again. It took about six or so long cranks. I felt less sure that it would start this time around. It didn't feel as close as it was before.

I let it sit for another thirty minutes and I tried again. This time it started on the third crank. I let it run for a little bit to let my battery recharge. I sat there and I held it at four grand with the door open to see how it sounded. Strangly, I didn't hear any backfire, which normally I have in the past. I did however start to notice that "Marbles in a Blender" noise that other have refered to. It sounds very faint for me. I only hear it when I am listening for it and the fan and radio are off.

I called the local dealer, they were quick to say I flooded it, but as soon as I mentioned it started, they said it must have been on the verge of flooding. The car was definatly warm enough not to flood when I turned it off. I have made shorter trips with no problems. He also stated it could be vapor lock.

I have an optima red top battery in the car, rx7 plugs from about 2,000 miles ago. Original starter. K&N drop in panel air filter. No other "performance" or related mods. RP 5w20 engine oil.

The temperature in this area has been pretty warm. Last week we were over 100, but today isn't that bad. Its mid 80s right now. The temperature guage on the dash was at the same place it has always been, one or two ticks before the half way point.

In about two hours I am going to go out there again and see how it is.

Any suggestions?

zoom44

flooded , cat is failing(sound was the cat) , battery was not fully charged, and the cel was misfire because of the prolonged load and fouling

lethologica

I thought the flooding issue goes away after the car is started and shut down properly.

What should I do? replace the plugs again?

Thanks

zoom44

or just clean them.

agoodcave

Did you have the latest (12/05) crank-no start TSB done? That one replaces the battery, starter and plugs. If it was flooding, this should help a lot.

Mike

skillmaker

^^^^ +1 on that.

Replacing starter generates much higher cranking speeds. The TSB is FABULOUS!

(2004 MT 16K miles, TSB done at 14K miles). MASSIVE difference with the new starter/flash/battery/plugs.

lethologica

I haven't had that TSB done yet. I replaced the battery with in six months of getting the car.

I will schedule something with my dealer for that new starter.

lethologica

I just went outside to try and start it again.

The area it is parked in in shaded now, and the car has cooled down greatly.

I tried starting, with in six seconds of the first crank it started right up.
This makes me think it was vapor lock. Would the new starter help with that? I wouldn't think it would help, but I am not positive. Is there anything else that can help with that? Like a better fuel pump or something of that sort.

zoom44

rotaries dont vapor lock

zoom44

let me re-state that- rotaries with high pressure fuel injection do not vapor lock

lethologica

Is High Pressure Fuel Injection stock with the 2004 8's?

Edit: What causes rotaries with high pressure fuel injection not to vapor lock?

skillmaker

Lets see if I can do a quick vapor-lock review.. (I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong)

In the old days, when the fuel pump was placed on the side of the V8 engine, there was many feet of fuel line between the pump and the tank. The pump was used to pull fuel through the line. Should the fuel in the middle of the hose vaporize (due to hot weather, too close to exhaust, and no pressure in the system, etc), a gaseous empty spot would appear in the line. This would reach the fuel pump, causing it to cavitate (designed to work in fluid, not vapor), and the cavitating fuel pump would no longer supply fuel to the engine. Hence, a vapor lock.

Similar situations would or could occur between the fuel pump and carb, causing bubbles of vapor to form and be pushed into the carb, pressurizing the carb and causing check valves to 'lock' in place, stopping the fuel flow.

In modern fuel injected engines, the fuel pump usually resides inside the tank, or directly attached to the tank. This means that there is little or no fuel line in which vapor can form. Additionally, the fuel pump is PUSHING fuel through the line, instead of trying to PULL fuel through the line. And, when the fuel pump is mounted inside the tank, the fuel itself acts as a coolant of sorts, keeping the pump at a more reasonable temperature.

Finally, a modern fuel injected engine normally runs a fuel 'loop', where there is a constant flow of fuel from the pump back to the tank, and the pressure of the feed line is regulated at the manifold. This tends to provide a purge of the line, since it feeds back to the tank. Any vapor bubbles that may form are pushed through the system.

Go48

If you over-oiled the K&N filter element, you may have oil-fouled the MAF/IAT which is located downstream from the filter. Remove the filter element and see if there is oil in the intake tube. If there is, clean or replace the MAF/IAT. Do a search in the forum on where the MAF/IAT sensor is located and how to clean it. And do it carefully.

zoom44

hey Go hows that compression tester coming along?

Go48

The prototype worked great and I'm currently building 2 production units and finishing up the users manual. My 2nd gen track car was the guinea pig for the testing and to my delight, all rotor faces had great compression. So I'm off to the track Friday to see if I can do something about that.

The recording process and detemination of compression for each rotor face as well as engine cranking RPM from the recorded data is straightforward--not automatic, but straightforward. However, some minor "normalization" of the data is required as to engine cranking RPM and the elevation of the test location, in order to relate the recorded readings to the Mazda "standards". Still working on that and hope to have units ready to sell in a month or so.

Price still TBD, but it will be considerably cheaper than the Mazda tool. Have some club members interested in purchasing a unit so these 2 may not actually make it to the open market. I will no doubt make more if the interest is there and I can price them reasonably. I will probably post a notice somewhere on the forum in the future detailing this concept and giving a little detail on how the system works.

zoom44

excellent look forward to hearing more embarrased to say i couldnt remember who was working on it and going thru my PMs monday realised i must have deleted teh conversation. luckily a mutual freind reminded me of it on the phone yesterday. ive been having lots of "small world" moments this week.

book you might want to check out- im reading it currently http://www.ronsuskind.com/theonepercentdoctrine/ alot of stuff about tenet of course.

sorry for the hi jack folks back to your regularly scheduled thread

lethologica

So on my way home, the car started right up. About half way there (I work three miles from home) another CEL came on as soon as I went above six thousand rpm. I slowed down and it went away. Then, about two blocks away from my apartment, I am sitting in traffic and the damn thing stalls. Won't start. I must have tried a dozen times.

I walked home and grabbed some tools. I came back. I checked my air filter, tried starting, nothing. I changed my oil filter, tried starting, nothing. Then I saw the mass air flow sensor and I thought, it couldn't hurt. I cleaned that, tried starting and it fire right up (its funny you mentioned that, now is the first I am reading your post.) The K&N filter is new from about 8,000 miles ago. I haven't oiled it myself. I just left it with the factory oil that come on it.

So I started driving it again and the check engine light came on and stayed on.

It is throwing P0300 and P0301. Which are random and front rotor misfire.

I am hearing what I think is a new rattle. it sounds like it is coming from the drivers side of the engine. It sounds like something is bouncing around in there. The car seems to be OK under three thousand rpm with the exception of a slight rattle. Anything above that and it is aweful.

I believe the dealer opens at 7:00AM. I will be the first one there.

What the hell could this be?

lethologica

Ok The car fired right up this morning. I started to take it to the dealer. The CEL stayed on the entire way. I kept it under four grand and it seemed on with the exception of the slight rattle. I was about 3/10ths of a mile from the dealer and I had less then a quater of a tank so I decieded to fill up. Got some gas and the car wouldn't start.

It took about 15 cranks to get it to go. I drove it over and it seemed to rattle at two, and four thousand rpm.

I got to the dealer, They tried to start it and it wouldn't budge.

The service writer didn't want to speculate until the tech can check it out. Its with them for the day.

RedSheDevil

wow, let us know what they find out ...

JPotta

Hey i let my car sit for the weekend when i got home it took me about 15 min to get it started havent driven it yet though is this common.
Also could someone fill me in on the tsb is it necessesary for my 05 and what does TSB mean? you can email me to Ottastyle@yahoo.com thanks guys

JPotta

Just took it for a drive and it ran better than ever wtf.

lethologica

Well it looks like I might be joining the new engine club.

The dealer is having someone come out to do some final diagnosis. I should know later today.

Suprisingly, I asked how long it takes them to install a new engine. They said they have done it in a day before. Once you remove all the plastic and the strut bar, everything is pretty easy.

lethologica

So when you get a new engine, what all comes with it? Does that include new plugs? New ignition coils? Alternator? Ecentric Shaft? Oil Pan? Metering Oil Pump? Oil Injectors? Fuel Injectors?

Thanks

lethologica

I heard back from the dealer again today...

They performed a compress test on the engine. The first rotor appears to be fine, the second hols NO compression. None what so ever. They said this is only caused by runing with too little oil. I am positive that the car never ran on low oil.

So now they want all of the service records for all of my oil changes. I am nuts about oil so it was religiously changed every 3000 miles. The problem is, I did it myself. So I have no official service records. I have a few reciepts showing I purchased a case of 5w20, but that is it. They want all of the oil and oil filter records.
To make matters worse, I have only used Royal Purple. Which has been fantastic, but I doubt Mazda will like that.

What defenses do I have?

With the issues where there was bubbles in the casting, what were the symptoms and how was it determined that was the problem. I do have an early build date, 9/2003.

I am going to also ask them, If I did run too low on oil, why is only the second rotor having issues?

Arg...

lethologica

I managed to scrounge up a bunch of old reciepts and get some faxed over from the local Advance Auto Parts. They said the fact that the reciepts state "Synthetic" on it might be an issue.

They are going to try and get in touch with Mazda today to see if they will cover the new engine.