English

Can anyone share some hard numbers that show brake upgrades perform better than the stock brake kit??? I need new pads, but want to know if I should go all out and upgrade rotors, lines, etc.....or just stay with the great kit that comes with the car. Thanks for your opinions, but I really want 'proof.'


edit....brakes, not breaks.....

English

anyone?

davefzr

haha.. I was wating for someone to post some figures but nobody ever did.

The only thing I can add to this thread is that Vivid Racing conducted some tests using the large Stop Tech BBK. They found that the stock RX8 broke from 60 in 117 feet and that the BBK from Stop Tech did this in 104 feet.

I have yet to see real analysis done by the manufacturing company selling their product.

G8rboy

I think I remember reading Pettit's big brake kit added to the stopping distance. I'm personally amazed at the OEM brakes- I don't know how well they'll hold up on track days, but for street use I think they're awesome.

philodox

Instead of buying a big brake kit, I just changed the rotors and pads.. Went with Drilled/Slotted rotors and EBC red stuff ceramic pads.. my 0-60 stopping distance is now around 100ft.

G8rboy

How are the EBC's in street driving? Any warm up needed to get them grabby?

philodox

They are EXTREMELY grabby.. I love them to death. EBC has a new owner and redesigned how they make their pads. So now they don't leave deposits on the rotors or increased wear on the rotors like the old EBC pads had.

I bought the EBC Red stuff because I autocross. But I find that they are well suited for spirited street driving as well.

As far as warming them up. By the time I get to the end of my road, the brakes are warmed up. So about 1/4 of a mile? I highly recommend them. If not because of the increased performance over stock, then for the extremely LOW brake dust that comes along with ceramics

G8rboy

Thanks for the info... I might upgrade before auto-x season starts next year. I tried some racing pads on my Miata years ago, and while they were incredible once warmed up for track use, they were crappy for light street driving... so I've been a little gunshy.

bfulmer

Everyone

In general, bigger brakes will NOT stop the car faster!!! Same for "better" brakes pads, slotted rotors, ect. If you have enough braking power with your "smaller brakes" to lock the tires then how do you expect bigger brakes to stop the car faster? Bigger brakes will only help on the track as they are able to absorb/dissapate more energy and race linings are designed to work at higher temperatures. They still look cool so buy them for that reason just don't expect any stopping distance improvements.

davefzr

If thats the case then why dont the top racing teams in the world use stock brakes from the factory.. are you saying they dont stop faster using 8 piston calipers and vented disk brakes?

Why do F1 cars use professional brakes? Because they can stop from 150mph in about the same distance as we can from 60.

There braking zones are insane.. Have you ever watched that type of racing? One moment they are going 175 and the next.. 50... it's crazy.

philodox

well, it's pretty much all about heat dissapation.. the faster your brakes can get rid of heat.. the more effective they are.. that's why i always suggest getting a drilled or slotted OEM size rotor instead of big brake kits.. unless you just want looks.. it's much cheaper, and really helps the heat dissapate.

bfulmer

Exactly what I said! Racing teams use larger rotors and different linings to absorb heat. And by the way, F1 cars have tons of downforce and very sticky tires. Thats why they stop faster. If you put rx8 brakes on a F1 car, you could stop just as fast for one or two times until the brakes get too hot. Remember, tires limit you stopping distance, brakes don't.

davefzr

I doubt that.. but whatever Live long and prosper.

Back to the subject... I wish companies would put out their analysis.. just not release a product.. Just once do I wish that would happen.... Well I guess it does all the time with turbos/sc's when they dyno.. because it's proven.. but companies should apply these same practices to shocks, brakes, etc...

I get X better lateral G's with your product...

I get X better stopping power, brake modulation with your product...

so on and so on....

bfulmer

Yah, whatever. I'm sure your more qualified than I am anyway. BTW - I've been a brake system engineer for 15 years working for a major automotive supplier.

philodox

Come on guys, lets not turn a rather informative thread into a "my wee wee is bigger than yours" arguement

davefzr

Espeacilly with someone who has only 12 posts.. geeez.. calm down guy..

I just dont get your logic is all.. maybe you can explain it to me. If your saying that if we put our stock RX8 brakes on an F1 car that it would still be able to brake from 150 in 100 ft. then why cant we brake our RX8's from 60 in 100 ft.? I dont get that. Are you saying that the downforce and sticky tires of an F1 car account for 80 % of the stopping power? How do you come to this conclusion? Since you have 15 years experience you can explain this to me and others.. I just dont get it...

Please explain...

furthermore.. if all brakes were equal.. why do the enzos rotors/calipers cost 30,000 each? Why not just slap on some 4 piston caliper brakes and call it quits if they gain nothing...? Why do they use the following?

The innovative braking system on the Enzo is a world ‘first’. Never before has a road car employed carbon-ceramic brake discs, although they are widely used in Formula 1. They offer enormous stopping power and significant weight reductions – 12.5 kg less than conventional steel units. Designed and manufactured by Brembo to a Ferrari specification, the 380 mm diameter,
34 mm thick discs have been engineered to last for the lifetime of the car.

One set of front carbon-ceramic brake pads - $6000

One set of front carbon-ceramic brake rotors - $24,000

btw.. relax guy... we are all in this for info.....

Thankx

davefzr

Even Two guys garage tested a bbk for the mustang and found the they consistantly stopped 10 feet shorter with the brake kit.. are they wrong too?

therm8

I don't care much about improving the stopping distance at the moment, however I would like to know if there are lightweight 2 piece rotors available. Searching on here only yields an $8000 titanium set from some company called ZMI.

Fanman

There was a very interesting segmenton "Sports Car Revolution." They had put a Acura RSX on the dyno, then put on a big brake kit, then an air intake and for some reason lost 7 hp. They replaced the Mugen air intake with the stock airbox and it had lost 12 hp from the original reading, and they were mystified. On talking with some of their expert friends they told them that they were losing hp because the bigger brakes caused the inertia point to go farther out, and that was why they were losing hp. They said because the big brakes allowed them to brake deeper into a corner they were not losing time on the track from the big brake kit. After bolting on the Mugen air intake & exhaust they were back up to the same place (in terms of hp) as their original dyno.

I don't know about lightweight, but Mazdatrix (www.mazdatrix.com) has a very nice Brembo brake upgrade kit.

The most improvement I experienced was not when I swapped outt he pads, but when I changed to stainless steel braided lines. The brakes felt much firmer.

davefzr

Yeah I saw that episode too with the RSX.. that was pretty interesting. I also remember another show that did something similar. Their car was trying to achieve some figure on the dyno and the reason why they were not hitting that number was because of the BBK they put on. Once they removed it they gained another 15 hp or something. I think they were trying to achieve 400 hp.

bfulmer

Sorry, I was just trying to help but some people just don't want to understand. For the rest of you, I really do know what I am saying and would be happy to explain things better if you have any specific questions about braking systems in general or what brake upgrades will and won't do for you.

bfulmer

For those willing to learn, the attached links do a nice job explaining brake systems. The author is a friend and a co-worker who knows what he is talking about.

http://www.teamscr.com/grmbrakes.html

http://www.teamscr.com/bigbrakekits.html

philodox

Thanks for the links.. pretty informative

Dark8

Most of us understand the a pad with a .30 friction coefficient will probably not stop any faster on the street than a pad rated at .28. However, if the same .30 pad retains it's friction coefficient at 400 degrees higher temperature than the other pad, then that pad may stop you faster at the track (lap days) where brake pad fade caused from excessive heat can become an issue. So I think the general blanket statement you made (In general, bigger brakes will NOT stop the car faster!!! Same for "better" brakes pads, slotted rotors, ect.) is not necessarily correct depending on what the driver intends to use the car for.

bfulmer

Yes, you are entirly correct. For track use where fade performance is important then race linings and bigger brakes will help. This is true only if you are fading the brake pads in the first place. Under normal street use the brakes will never get hot enough to have a considerable fade. They will certainly not fade during one stop and it would take many back to back high speed braking events (just like you have on the track) to put enough heat into the rotors/pads to induce fade. The vast majority of RX-8's will never see the track so my conclusion is still correct. In general, bigger brakes will NOT stop the car faster. Same for "better" brakes pads, slotted rotors, ect. The stock RX-8 brakes are fairly large to start with, especially the sport package. With that said, I do have a front bbk on my 8. Why, because I take it to the track.