Initial report on Tokico D-Specs
03-14-2006 | 09:28 PM
#1
Initial report on Tokico D-Specs
I’ve had the D-Specs on for a few days now, and wanted to post my initial impressions. Take note that this is on an otherwise stock suspension, stock wheels, with 245-40-18 T1-Rs.
I started out with them set very stiff – one turn back from full stiff, out of 7.5 turns total. First thing you notice, even just pulling out of the driveway, is the chassis moves around a lot less than you are used to. The absence of brake dive is immediately noticeable. The next thing you notice is that the primary ride quality is still very good – which is to say, like stock. I took the car over some familiar roads, the kind where the top surface has degraded and you get a nasty mix of several different paving jobs, and the car just sails over it. No degradation of ride quality.
This really impresses me. The D-Specs do an outstanding job of filtering out the high-frequency “buzzy” type road imperfections, regardless of how stiff you have them. The ride is excellent even if the road surface is poor and you have the damping jacked way up. Very cool.
Moving on to the freeway, I take a long, sustained sweeper at about 80 or so. Here I notice an added sensitivity to steering inputs – the car is ready to change lines even with small inputs at the wheel - much more so than with the stock dampers. Great for track use.
After the sweeper, I cruise along a straight, and here is where the downside of having all that extra damping comes in. The car body moves up and down with every contour change in the road, jostling the passengers. The ride is still smooth, but it’s not plush, if that makes any sense. It’s certainly not the way I’d want the car to ride when driving long distances, but then remember I have these set to nearly full-stiff. I take it in without doing any back roads.
The next day I decide to try the other end of the spectrum, backing the adjusters out a total of five turns (out of 7.5) from full stiff. Overall this feels much closer to stock, but still I can immediately detect less body movement, even when just puttering through the neighborhood.
I take it over the same freeway section, and on the sweeper the car isn’t as sensitive to steering inputs as it was the day before. No surprise there. On the straights, the plushness is back, along with that excellent ride. Perfect.
Next, I take it on some familiar back roads. Now I’m really getting a feel for the changes. The car rolls less duing turn in, dives less under braking, and squats less under accelerations (especially noticeable during gear changes). I’m really impressed by the lack of body roll – it almost seems like I installed stiffer sway bars. This is exactly what I was looking for, from a street perspective anyway. No question, the car handles better in all respects.
I’m really surprised at how much body roll is reduced during shorter corners – i.e., those where you don’t stop moving the steering wheel – bend in to the apex, and then bend out – the car stays flat. Well, at least flatter than stock.
However, during more sustained corners, you can detect the point where the dampers stop resisting roll – basically, about half a second after you finish turn-in and hold a constant radius. At that point, the relative motion between the wheel and the body slows down, and the dampers can’t generate roll-resisting forces, and you feel the car roll a bit more, settling in against the shocks and sways. Couple these shocks with some mild sways, like MS, and I think I’d have my own personal handling nirvana – better handling without one iota of compromise in ride quality, ground clearance or suspension travel.
So, overall I am favorably impressed. I’m going to resist going nuts over these because I have so few miles on them. But I will say that the ability of the shocks to filter our high frequency road imperfections regardless of damper setting is fantastic. And it’s clear they have a wide range of adjustment, letting you choose how you want the car to behave.
Now, for a few of the obvious questions.
Are these “better” than Koni yellows? For hard-core autocrossers, probably not. I had a rear shock dyno-tested (see attached) and anybody who has seen a dyno chart for a Koni yellow will tell you that the Konis have more low speed damping than the D-Specs. That low-speed (that’s shaft speed, not car speed, for those uninitiated in the world of shock dyno charts) damping is critical for autocross, so I think the Koni yellows will likely be a little faster, all other things being equal. But, I’m guessing you’d have to have the Konis set to ¾ stiff or more to take advantage of that edge. This is of course just speculation, but I do have an autocross this weekend, which I’m going to run on 710s (weather permitting) so I’ll have more insight soon.
Could these handle stiffer springs. Most certainly yes. Would they be better than MS dampers with MS springs? Don’t know for sure, but I sure like having adjustability, especially if you like doing track days or autocross. They certainly have the damping to handle the MS springs. Would MS springs with D-Specs be better than a good set of coil-overs? Certinaly not. You get what you pay for.
So, my initial impression is thumbs up. If, like me, you think the RX-8 handles great stock and just want to tighten it up a little, then the D-Specs are just what you want, especially if you couple them with some sway bars or mild springs, like RB. If you want to seriously stiffen the car up, then I’d suggest a good set of coilovers.
Either way, as I’ve stated before, I’m a big fan of going after pitch, roll, and dive simultaneously, which means shocks and, if you want them, springs as the primary mod. Then sprinkle with sway bars to taste.
I have other thoughts but this is long enough!
I started out with them set very stiff – one turn back from full stiff, out of 7.5 turns total. First thing you notice, even just pulling out of the driveway, is the chassis moves around a lot less than you are used to. The absence of brake dive is immediately noticeable. The next thing you notice is that the primary ride quality is still very good – which is to say, like stock. I took the car over some familiar roads, the kind where the top surface has degraded and you get a nasty mix of several different paving jobs, and the car just sails over it. No degradation of ride quality.
This really impresses me. The D-Specs do an outstanding job of filtering out the high-frequency “buzzy” type road imperfections, regardless of how stiff you have them. The ride is excellent even if the road surface is poor and you have the damping jacked way up. Very cool.
Moving on to the freeway, I take a long, sustained sweeper at about 80 or so. Here I notice an added sensitivity to steering inputs – the car is ready to change lines even with small inputs at the wheel - much more so than with the stock dampers. Great for track use.
After the sweeper, I cruise along a straight, and here is where the downside of having all that extra damping comes in. The car body moves up and down with every contour change in the road, jostling the passengers. The ride is still smooth, but it’s not plush, if that makes any sense. It’s certainly not the way I’d want the car to ride when driving long distances, but then remember I have these set to nearly full-stiff. I take it in without doing any back roads.
The next day I decide to try the other end of the spectrum, backing the adjusters out a total of five turns (out of 7.5) from full stiff. Overall this feels much closer to stock, but still I can immediately detect less body movement, even when just puttering through the neighborhood.
I take it over the same freeway section, and on the sweeper the car isn’t as sensitive to steering inputs as it was the day before. No surprise there. On the straights, the plushness is back, along with that excellent ride. Perfect.
Next, I take it on some familiar back roads. Now I’m really getting a feel for the changes. The car rolls less duing turn in, dives less under braking, and squats less under accelerations (especially noticeable during gear changes). I’m really impressed by the lack of body roll – it almost seems like I installed stiffer sway bars. This is exactly what I was looking for, from a street perspective anyway. No question, the car handles better in all respects.
I’m really surprised at how much body roll is reduced during shorter corners – i.e., those where you don’t stop moving the steering wheel – bend in to the apex, and then bend out – the car stays flat. Well, at least flatter than stock.
However, during more sustained corners, you can detect the point where the dampers stop resisting roll – basically, about half a second after you finish turn-in and hold a constant radius. At that point, the relative motion between the wheel and the body slows down, and the dampers can’t generate roll-resisting forces, and you feel the car roll a bit more, settling in against the shocks and sways. Couple these shocks with some mild sways, like MS, and I think I’d have my own personal handling nirvana – better handling without one iota of compromise in ride quality, ground clearance or suspension travel.
So, overall I am favorably impressed. I’m going to resist going nuts over these because I have so few miles on them. But I will say that the ability of the shocks to filter our high frequency road imperfections regardless of damper setting is fantastic. And it’s clear they have a wide range of adjustment, letting you choose how you want the car to behave.
Now, for a few of the obvious questions.
Are these “better” than Koni yellows? For hard-core autocrossers, probably not. I had a rear shock dyno-tested (see attached) and anybody who has seen a dyno chart for a Koni yellow will tell you that the Konis have more low speed damping than the D-Specs. That low-speed (that’s shaft speed, not car speed, for those uninitiated in the world of shock dyno charts) damping is critical for autocross, so I think the Koni yellows will likely be a little faster, all other things being equal. But, I’m guessing you’d have to have the Konis set to ¾ stiff or more to take advantage of that edge. This is of course just speculation, but I do have an autocross this weekend, which I’m going to run on 710s (weather permitting) so I’ll have more insight soon.
Could these handle stiffer springs. Most certainly yes. Would they be better than MS dampers with MS springs? Don’t know for sure, but I sure like having adjustability, especially if you like doing track days or autocross. They certainly have the damping to handle the MS springs. Would MS springs with D-Specs be better than a good set of coil-overs? Certinaly not. You get what you pay for.
So, my initial impression is thumbs up. If, like me, you think the RX-8 handles great stock and just want to tighten it up a little, then the D-Specs are just what you want, especially if you couple them with some sway bars or mild springs, like RB. If you want to seriously stiffen the car up, then I’d suggest a good set of coilovers.
Either way, as I’ve stated before, I’m a big fan of going after pitch, roll, and dive simultaneously, which means shocks and, if you want them, springs as the primary mod. Then sprinkle with sway bars to taste.
I have other thoughts but this is long enough!
Last edited by GeorgeH; 03-14-2006 at 09:34 PM.
03-14-2006 | 09:38 PM
#2
Originally Posted by GeorgeH
I’ve had the D-Specs on for a few days now, and wanted to post my initial impressions. Take note that this is on an otherwise stock suspension, stock wheels, with 245-40-18 T1-Rs.
I started out with them set very stiff – one turn back from full stiff, out of 7.5 turns total. First thing you notice, even just pulling out of the driveway, is the chassis moves around a lot less than you are used to. The absence of brake dive is immediately noticeable. The next thing you notice is that the primary ride quality is still very good – which is to say, like stock. I took the car over some familiar roads, the kind where the top surface has degraded and you get a nasty mix of several different paving jobs, and the car just sails over it. No degradation of ride quality.
This really impresses me. The D-Specs do an outstanding job of filtering out the high-frequency “buzzy” type road imperfections, regardless of how stiff you have them. The ride is excellent even if the road surface is poor and you have the damping jacked way up. Very cool.
Moving on to the freeway, I take a long, sustained sweeper at about 80 or so. Here I notice an added sensitivity to steering inputs – the car is ready to change lines even with small inputs at the wheel - much more so than with the stock dampers. Great for track use.
After the sweeper, I cruise along a straight, and here is where the downside of having all that extra damping comes in. The car body moves up and down with every contour change in the road, jostling the passengers. The ride is still smooth, but it’s not plush, if that makes any sense. It’s certainly not the way I’d want the car to ride when driving long distances, but then remember I have these set to nearly full-stiff. I take it in without doing any back roads.
The next day I decide to try the other end of the spectrum, backing the adjusters out a total of five turns (out of 7.5) from full stiff. Overall this feels much closer to stock, but still I can immediately detect less body movement, even when just puttering through the neighborhood.
I take it over the same freeway section, and on the sweeper the car isn’t as sensitive to steering inputs as it was the day before. No surprise there. On the straights, the plushness is back, along with that excellent ride. Perfect.
Next, I take it on some familiar back roads. Now I’m really getting a feel for the changes. The car rolls less duing turn in, dives less under braking, and squats less under accelerations (especially noticeable during gear changes). I’m really impressed by the lack of body roll – it almost seems like I installed stiffer sway bars. This is exactly what I was looking for, from a street perspective anyway. No question, the car handles better in all respects.
I’m really surprised at how much body roll is reduced during shorter corners – i.e., those where you don’t stop moving the steering wheel – bend in to the apex, and then bend out – the car stays flat. Well, at least flatter than stock.
However, during more sustained corners, you can detect the point where the dampers stop resisting roll – basically, about half a second after you finish turn-in and hold a constant radius. At that point, the relative motion between the wheel and the body slows down, and the dampers can’t generate roll-resisting forces, and you feel the car roll a bit more, settling in against the shocks and sways. Couple these shocks with some mild sways, like MS, and I think I’d have my own personal handling nirvana – better handling without one iota of compromise in ride quality, ground clearance or suspension travel.
So, overall I am favorably impressed. I’m going to resist going nuts over these because I have so few miles on them. But I will say that the ability of the shocks to filter our high frequency road imperfections regardless of damper setting is fantastic. And it’s clear they have a wide range of adjustment, letting you choose how you want the car to behave.
Now, for a few of the obvious questions.
Are these “better” than Koni yellows? For hard-core autocrossers, probably not. I had a rear shock dyno-tested (see attached) and anybody who has seen a dyno chart for a Koni yellow will tell you that the Konis have more low speed damping than the D-Specs. That low-speed (that’s shaft speed, not car speed, for those uninitiated in the world of shock dyno charts) damping is critical for autocross, so I think the Koni yellows will likely be a little faster, all other things being equal. But, I’m guessing you’d have to have the Konis set to ¾ stiff or more to take advantage of that edge. This is of course just speculation, but I do have an autocross this weekend, which I’m going to run on 710s (weather permitting) so I’ll have more insight soon.
Could these handle stiffer springs. Most certainly yes. Would they be better than MS dampers with MS springs? Don’t know for sure, but I sure like having adjustability, especially if you like doing track days or autocross. They certainly have the damping to handle the MS springs. Would MS springs with D-Specs be better than a good set of coil-overs? Certinaly not. You get what you pay for.
So, my initial impression is thumbs up. If, like me, you think the RX-8 handles great stock and just want to tighten it up a little, then the D-Specs are just what you want, especially if you couple them with some sway bars or mild springs, like RB. If you want to seriously stiffen the car up, then I’d suggest a good set of coilovers.
Either way, as I’ve stated before, I’m a big fan of going after pitch, roll, and dive simultaneously, which means shocks and, if you want them, springs as the primary mod. Then sprinkle with sway bars to taste.
I have other thoughts but this is long enough!
I started out with them set very stiff – one turn back from full stiff, out of 7.5 turns total. First thing you notice, even just pulling out of the driveway, is the chassis moves around a lot less than you are used to. The absence of brake dive is immediately noticeable. The next thing you notice is that the primary ride quality is still very good – which is to say, like stock. I took the car over some familiar roads, the kind where the top surface has degraded and you get a nasty mix of several different paving jobs, and the car just sails over it. No degradation of ride quality.
This really impresses me. The D-Specs do an outstanding job of filtering out the high-frequency “buzzy” type road imperfections, regardless of how stiff you have them. The ride is excellent even if the road surface is poor and you have the damping jacked way up. Very cool.
Moving on to the freeway, I take a long, sustained sweeper at about 80 or so. Here I notice an added sensitivity to steering inputs – the car is ready to change lines even with small inputs at the wheel - much more so than with the stock dampers. Great for track use.
After the sweeper, I cruise along a straight, and here is where the downside of having all that extra damping comes in. The car body moves up and down with every contour change in the road, jostling the passengers. The ride is still smooth, but it’s not plush, if that makes any sense. It’s certainly not the way I’d want the car to ride when driving long distances, but then remember I have these set to nearly full-stiff. I take it in without doing any back roads.
The next day I decide to try the other end of the spectrum, backing the adjusters out a total of five turns (out of 7.5) from full stiff. Overall this feels much closer to stock, but still I can immediately detect less body movement, even when just puttering through the neighborhood.
I take it over the same freeway section, and on the sweeper the car isn’t as sensitive to steering inputs as it was the day before. No surprise there. On the straights, the plushness is back, along with that excellent ride. Perfect.
Next, I take it on some familiar back roads. Now I’m really getting a feel for the changes. The car rolls less duing turn in, dives less under braking, and squats less under accelerations (especially noticeable during gear changes). I’m really impressed by the lack of body roll – it almost seems like I installed stiffer sway bars. This is exactly what I was looking for, from a street perspective anyway. No question, the car handles better in all respects.
I’m really surprised at how much body roll is reduced during shorter corners – i.e., those where you don’t stop moving the steering wheel – bend in to the apex, and then bend out – the car stays flat. Well, at least flatter than stock.
However, during more sustained corners, you can detect the point where the dampers stop resisting roll – basically, about half a second after you finish turn-in and hold a constant radius. At that point, the relative motion between the wheel and the body slows down, and the dampers can’t generate roll-resisting forces, and you feel the car roll a bit more, settling in against the shocks and sways. Couple these shocks with some mild sways, like MS, and I think I’d have my own personal handling nirvana – better handling without one iota of compromise in ride quality, ground clearance or suspension travel.
So, overall I am favorably impressed. I’m going to resist going nuts over these because I have so few miles on them. But I will say that the ability of the shocks to filter our high frequency road imperfections regardless of damper setting is fantastic. And it’s clear they have a wide range of adjustment, letting you choose how you want the car to behave.
Now, for a few of the obvious questions.
Are these “better” than Koni yellows? For hard-core autocrossers, probably not. I had a rear shock dyno-tested (see attached) and anybody who has seen a dyno chart for a Koni yellow will tell you that the Konis have more low speed damping than the D-Specs. That low-speed (that’s shaft speed, not car speed, for those uninitiated in the world of shock dyno charts) damping is critical for autocross, so I think the Koni yellows will likely be a little faster, all other things being equal. But, I’m guessing you’d have to have the Konis set to ¾ stiff or more to take advantage of that edge. This is of course just speculation, but I do have an autocross this weekend, which I’m going to run on 710s (weather permitting) so I’ll have more insight soon.
Could these handle stiffer springs. Most certainly yes. Would they be better than MS dampers with MS springs? Don’t know for sure, but I sure like having adjustability, especially if you like doing track days or autocross. They certainly have the damping to handle the MS springs. Would MS springs with D-Specs be better than a good set of coil-overs? Certinaly not. You get what you pay for.
So, my initial impression is thumbs up. If, like me, you think the RX-8 handles great stock and just want to tighten it up a little, then the D-Specs are just what you want, especially if you couple them with some sway bars or mild springs, like RB. If you want to seriously stiffen the car up, then I’d suggest a good set of coilovers.
Either way, as I’ve stated before, I’m a big fan of going after pitch, roll, and dive simultaneously, which means shocks and, if you want them, springs as the primary mod. Then sprinkle with sway bars to taste.
I have other thoughts but this is long enough!
nice write.
this is with stock springs??? correct.... and you got the rear adjusters from rb???
thanks great job...
beers
03-15-2006 | 08:35 PM
#4
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Hi George,
Glad you are so happy with them. Actually I just installed mine today, but with the H&R springs which are quite stiff. I have to agree that the wide range of adjustability allows you to turn the car into a comfortable cruiser or a more agressive ride.
I've taken them for a rip at full hard, 1 turn out, 2 turns out and 3 turns out. Frankly I don't want them set to more than 3 turns out, but I will try it at 5 or 6 tomorrow, just for kicks.
It really is too early for me to say, but I'm really impressed for my application as I will not be competing and can benefit from having the adjustability. On the other hand, the shocks do not seem to work well at full hard and they really need to be backed down a little. The behaviour of the car does not seem the way I would want it when set really hard. Softening the damping seems to help this unusual harshness, but I think an agressive setup should be capable of this same planted ride without the chassis wanting to follow every single bump in the road.
That being said, the car still handles very well and holds the road with excellent balance. The confidence with which you can drive with, can really get you into trouble with the law... and perhaps your life.
Peter
Glad you are so happy with them. Actually I just installed mine today, but with the H&R springs which are quite stiff. I have to agree that the wide range of adjustability allows you to turn the car into a comfortable cruiser or a more agressive ride.
I've taken them for a rip at full hard, 1 turn out, 2 turns out and 3 turns out. Frankly I don't want them set to more than 3 turns out, but I will try it at 5 or 6 tomorrow, just for kicks.
It really is too early for me to say, but I'm really impressed for my application as I will not be competing and can benefit from having the adjustability. On the other hand, the shocks do not seem to work well at full hard and they really need to be backed down a little. The behaviour of the car does not seem the way I would want it when set really hard. Softening the damping seems to help this unusual harshness, but I think an agressive setup should be capable of this same planted ride without the chassis wanting to follow every single bump in the road.
That being said, the car still handles very well and holds the road with excellent balance. The confidence with which you can drive with, can really get you into trouble with the law... and perhaps your life.
Peter
03-16-2006 | 12:16 AM
#5
5 or 6 out will probably feel underdamped for the H&Rs, but I'll bet 4 will work. Remeber, you want some compliance when you are on the street. And, I'm not surprised full stiff is unworkable for the street, especially with the stiff springs. Have fun!
03-16-2006 | 08:44 AM
#6
Funny you'd say that. The dyno operator likes the Tokico curves. When I described the Koni curves he said "that's what you get when you use an old-school blowoff stack instead of good quality needle valve." He doesn't like Konis - prefers Bilsteins, Penskes, Ohlins, etc (which is what he sells). But then he's a road racer not an autocrosser.
To say these curves are indicative of "cheapness" is ridiculous. They are, however, indicative of a different valving stratgey than Koni. Are they the best choice for a hard-core autocrosser? No, it doesn't seem so. But that doesn't mean they are cheap or poor quality. These curves are actually more in line whith what many high end dampers deliver, in my experience.
To say these curves are indicative of "cheapness" is ridiculous. They are, however, indicative of a different valving stratgey than Koni. Are they the best choice for a hard-core autocrosser? No, it doesn't seem so. But that doesn't mean they are cheap or poor quality. These curves are actually more in line whith what many high end dampers deliver, in my experience.
03-21-2006 | 05:07 PM
#7
Original Turbo 'd Auto !!
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
Likes: 4
From: Surprise, Arizona
Well I installed my D-Specs this weekend, but have the Tein S-Techs.
To come close to a stock ride I have set the fronts to 6 turns out and the rears to 5 turns out. I have just driven around the area but haven't hit the freeway yet.
I have some more free time soon to play further with the settings.
My suspension as it sits right now are
Whiteline Adj Sways (harder setting of the two)
Tein S-Techs
Tokico D-Specs.
To come close to a stock ride I have set the fronts to 6 turns out and the rears to 5 turns out. I have just driven around the area but haven't hit the freeway yet.
I have some more free time soon to play further with the settings.
My suspension as it sits right now are
Whiteline Adj Sways (harder setting of the two)
Tein S-Techs
Tokico D-Specs.
03-21-2006 | 05:38 PM
#8
What do they feel like when they are set stiffer? Is primary ride quality ("buzz" or high frequency vibration) degrading or secondary (car is following contours in the road too closely)?
They may need to break in a bit too.
They may need to break in a bit too.
03-23-2006 | 02:53 PM
#9
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Hey 09Factor...
I heard the Teins have a lower drop in the front (or rear... can't remember which?). Does your car sit level? The reason I ask, is becuase I have the H&R's which claim an even drop at all corners. When I had the H&R springs put on with the stock shocks, the wheel gap at the front appeared slightly lower. (top of wheel relative to fender, viewed from the side of the car) Now that the H&R's are matched up with the D-specs, the car appears more level, when looking at the side of the car, but acually measures about 1/4 higher in the front. If springs offer a different drop on the front vs rear, it makes me wonder how the car will sit when all is said and done? If you have any input, I'm curious....
At first, I was reluctant to go too soft with the D-spec settings becuase I like a very firm ride, but I have to say, at 5 turns out the car drives like a dream on the road and handles very well. Much better than my stock setup, although that may be becuase the H&R springs I have are too firm for the stock dampening. In fact, the D-specs even at 7 turns out are still much better and hold a firmer and more predictable ride than my stock shocks with 25,000mi on them. I would fare a guess to say that the stock shocks, when they were brand new, might be close to the damping of the D-specs at 7 turns out. (full soft)
Having the adjustability on all 4 wheels allows you to turn the car from a comforable sport position to a really planted and abrasive ride. At full hard, the body practically moves up and down with the tires... Having adjustability on the fronts only, will only let you compensate for under/oversteer, but does not give you that ability to change the animal behind the wheel.
Regardless, you must be lovin' the setup. I have a smile on my face evertime I go anywhere...
I heard the Teins have a lower drop in the front (or rear... can't remember which?). Does your car sit level? The reason I ask, is becuase I have the H&R's which claim an even drop at all corners. When I had the H&R springs put on with the stock shocks, the wheel gap at the front appeared slightly lower. (top of wheel relative to fender, viewed from the side of the car) Now that the H&R's are matched up with the D-specs, the car appears more level, when looking at the side of the car, but acually measures about 1/4 higher in the front. If springs offer a different drop on the front vs rear, it makes me wonder how the car will sit when all is said and done? If you have any input, I'm curious....
At first, I was reluctant to go too soft with the D-spec settings becuase I like a very firm ride, but I have to say, at 5 turns out the car drives like a dream on the road and handles very well. Much better than my stock setup, although that may be becuase the H&R springs I have are too firm for the stock dampening. In fact, the D-specs even at 7 turns out are still much better and hold a firmer and more predictable ride than my stock shocks with 25,000mi on them. I would fare a guess to say that the stock shocks, when they were brand new, might be close to the damping of the D-specs at 7 turns out. (full soft)
Having the adjustability on all 4 wheels allows you to turn the car from a comforable sport position to a really planted and abrasive ride. At full hard, the body practically moves up and down with the tires... Having adjustability on the fronts only, will only let you compensate for under/oversteer, but does not give you that ability to change the animal behind the wheel.
Regardless, you must be lovin' the setup. I have a smile on my face evertime I go anywhere...
03-23-2006 | 03:08 PM
#10
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Hi George,
Since I've tried all the various settings from 0-7 turns out, it's pretty safe to say these shocks are dynomite for road use. I have surprised myself and find 3-5 turns to be where I really like the car. Any harder than 3 turns and you need pretty smooth pavement to stop any negative effects. I'm not sure if that is becuase of the nature of the shocks dampening or just the fact that the road is too rough and it is doing a fantastic job of the road conditions. But really, you never need stiffer than 3 turns out for road use. I'm flying around... breaking all the laws of gods green earth with a fair degree of safety remaining, all at 4 turns out. I have found that softening the shocks from about 2 turns down to 4 turns do not sacrifice any handling, in fact it is much better becuase the tires are being allowed to follow the road without excessive reaction from the chassis.
Perhaps you have found the same thing?
I plan to do some closed circuit time trials this summer and will likely dip into the 1-3 turn range for track use. Regardless, I think you will need a closed race course and a stopwatch to detect if another brand of shocks will beat these ones on a flying lap. I want to find out how the car/shocks handles the oversteer generated by the burms on the inside of the corners. (and how to adjust the shocks to find neutral balance)
Since I've tried all the various settings from 0-7 turns out, it's pretty safe to say these shocks are dynomite for road use. I have surprised myself and find 3-5 turns to be where I really like the car. Any harder than 3 turns and you need pretty smooth pavement to stop any negative effects. I'm not sure if that is becuase of the nature of the shocks dampening or just the fact that the road is too rough and it is doing a fantastic job of the road conditions. But really, you never need stiffer than 3 turns out for road use. I'm flying around... breaking all the laws of gods green earth with a fair degree of safety remaining, all at 4 turns out. I have found that softening the shocks from about 2 turns down to 4 turns do not sacrifice any handling, in fact it is much better becuase the tires are being allowed to follow the road without excessive reaction from the chassis.
Perhaps you have found the same thing?
I plan to do some closed circuit time trials this summer and will likely dip into the 1-3 turn range for track use. Regardless, I think you will need a closed race course and a stopwatch to detect if another brand of shocks will beat these ones on a flying lap. I want to find out how the car/shocks handles the oversteer generated by the burms on the inside of the corners. (and how to adjust the shocks to find neutral balance)
03-23-2006 | 03:33 PM
#11
Registered
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,473
Likes: 0
From: Diamond Bar, Ca
I was thinking about purchasing this product but already have tanabe springs. This is a quote from their website regarding the product.
"D-Spec suspension kits will include four D-Spec shocks/struts and four sport lowering springs."
My question is, is it common for the springs that come with this product to be discarded as there are much better springs that when working in conjunction with the shock work much better?
Or are you guys purchasing the D-Spec and using the springs that came with it?
EDIT: I just read above that he used the stock springs with the product. I guess it just comes down to your intended use. If your only going to use this product on the street, occasional x-crosser or even full day racce sessions. I would assume that for the person looking to use this product on the street and the track would gain some benefit on the track days from a stiffer spring..
"D-Spec suspension kits will include four D-Spec shocks/struts and four sport lowering springs."
My question is, is it common for the springs that come with this product to be discarded as there are much better springs that when working in conjunction with the shock work much better?
Or are you guys purchasing the D-Spec and using the springs that came with it?
EDIT: I just read above that he used the stock springs with the product. I guess it just comes down to your intended use. If your only going to use this product on the street, occasional x-crosser or even full day racce sessions. I would assume that for the person looking to use this product on the street and the track would gain some benefit on the track days from a stiffer spring..
Last edited by davefzr; 03-23-2006 at 03:37 PM.
03-23-2006 | 04:01 PM
#12
Tokico typically sells just the shocks, unless you buy a "handling kit" in which case it comes with springs. I have just the shocks.
Good to hear you guys are liking the shocks. I tend to agree that for most street use, you are better off in the lower 1/3 of the damping range, which gives a fantastic ride/handling tradeoff.
Now that I have a few miles on mine (and one autocross; check the racing section for a report) I can say they do need to be broken in a bit. When they are new, especially if you set them up on the firmer end, they have a bit of a "molasses" feel to them, but once they are broken in this goes away even at full stiff.
I've been driving them at full stiff for a couple of days now and it really feels like I have stiffer springs in the car. And I'm used to the effects of stiff springs - I have JICs in my Miata. A good coilover would still give sharper handling, and better performance over smoother surfaces, but the D-Specs let you decide how you want your car to feel for the day, and that's pretty cool. Want it plush and comfortable? No problem. Want it hyper-responsive? You can do that too. But, on average, I like it in between those two extremes for day to day use.
One thing I like about them when set to full stiff (or just below that) is the added turn-in, which is especially noticeable on high-speed sweepers - the car is more responsive to small movements of the steering wheel, which enhances the feeling of control. Also, when they are set stiffer they will hold a set longer and not flop over mid corner so much, although those of you with aftermarket springs won't have that problem. For those reasons, I think for track days you will want them set to the stiffer end of the spectrum.
edit - for the autocross, I had both 1/4 turn back from full stiff, and the car was a little loose. Backed the rears out another 1/2 turn and it tamed the car. So, I'd reccomend the rears to be set 1/2 turn less than the fronts as a starting point for good balance, although you'd have to fling the car pretty hard in a transient manuver to feel it.
Good to hear you guys are liking the shocks. I tend to agree that for most street use, you are better off in the lower 1/3 of the damping range, which gives a fantastic ride/handling tradeoff.
Now that I have a few miles on mine (and one autocross; check the racing section for a report) I can say they do need to be broken in a bit. When they are new, especially if you set them up on the firmer end, they have a bit of a "molasses" feel to them, but once they are broken in this goes away even at full stiff.
I've been driving them at full stiff for a couple of days now and it really feels like I have stiffer springs in the car. And I'm used to the effects of stiff springs - I have JICs in my Miata. A good coilover would still give sharper handling, and better performance over smoother surfaces, but the D-Specs let you decide how you want your car to feel for the day, and that's pretty cool. Want it plush and comfortable? No problem. Want it hyper-responsive? You can do that too. But, on average, I like it in between those two extremes for day to day use.
One thing I like about them when set to full stiff (or just below that) is the added turn-in, which is especially noticeable on high-speed sweepers - the car is more responsive to small movements of the steering wheel, which enhances the feeling of control. Also, when they are set stiffer they will hold a set longer and not flop over mid corner so much, although those of you with aftermarket springs won't have that problem. For those reasons, I think for track days you will want them set to the stiffer end of the spectrum.
edit - for the autocross, I had both 1/4 turn back from full stiff, and the car was a little loose. Backed the rears out another 1/2 turn and it tamed the car. So, I'd reccomend the rears to be set 1/2 turn less than the fronts as a starting point for good balance, although you'd have to fling the car pretty hard in a transient manuver to feel it.
Last edited by GeorgeH; 03-23-2006 at 04:04 PM.
03-23-2006 | 04:47 PM
#13
Pining for the Fjords
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 688
Likes: 0
From: Fort Wayne, IN
Originally Posted by GeorgeH
The next thing you notice is that the primary ride quality is still very good – which is to say, like stock. I took the car over some familiar roads, the kind where the top surface has degraded and you get a nasty mix of several different paving jobs, and the car just sails over it. No degradation of ride quality.
03-23-2006 | 04:48 PM
#14
Originally Posted by DrDiaboloco
Maybe this is addressed in your post and I missed it... But are you comparing the new shocks to the OEM units after they'd had time to wear out, or are you comparing the new shocks to OEM units that were still fairly new (say, under 20k miles)?
03-23-2006 | 04:54 PM
#15
Pining for the Fjords
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 688
Likes: 0
From: Fort Wayne, IN
Interesting.
I don't think I'll *ahem* "spring" for new shocks just now, but it's definitely something I'll look into when it does come time to replace the OEM units. I had Tokicos on my Taurus SHO and I simply LOVED them... But I'm happy with the stock stuff in the RX8 until such time as they need replacing (at under 1000mi on the new car, they hardly "need" to be replaced yet!).
I don't think I'll *ahem* "spring" for new shocks just now, but it's definitely something I'll look into when it does come time to replace the OEM units. I had Tokicos on my Taurus SHO and I simply LOVED them... But I'm happy with the stock stuff in the RX8 until such time as they need replacing (at under 1000mi on the new car, they hardly "need" to be replaced yet!).
03-23-2006 | 06:28 PM
#16
I can understand that. It just depends on what you want. I always felt the stock dampers were too weak, even when brand-spanking-new. I whish I would have done this earlier.
Besides, as someone else said, there's nothing better than putting cool new stuff on a brand new car.
Besides, as someone else said, there's nothing better than putting cool new stuff on a brand new car.
03-24-2006 | 09:51 AM
#18
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Dr Diaboloco,
Sorry bud, but I've got to give you a push and provide a little more incentive to drop the dough! I never felt the stock shocks had enough dampenning and by 25,000mi they certainly did not. The D-specs have all the right stuff. I was trying to justify keeping my stock stuff too, but I'm so happy I took the plunge. Now I have amazing suspension on a new car. I've still got the stock stuff and plan to put it back on the car when this stuff wears out. That way I can sell the car in excellent 'stock' condition 3 years later.
I'd bet the springs you have would work well with the D-specs. Stock springs may be a tad soft and my H&R's may be a tad firm, but anywhere in between may be a near perfect match for road use.
You have no idea how much better the car will feel... not to mention the ability to play with the ride quality.
Good Luck and happy shopping...
Sorry bud, but I've got to give you a push and provide a little more incentive to drop the dough! I never felt the stock shocks had enough dampenning and by 25,000mi they certainly did not. The D-specs have all the right stuff. I was trying to justify keeping my stock stuff too, but I'm so happy I took the plunge. Now I have amazing suspension on a new car. I've still got the stock stuff and plan to put it back on the car when this stuff wears out. That way I can sell the car in excellent 'stock' condition 3 years later.
I'd bet the springs you have would work well with the D-specs. Stock springs may be a tad soft and my H&R's may be a tad firm, but anywhere in between may be a near perfect match for road use.
You have no idea how much better the car will feel... not to mention the ability to play with the ride quality.
Good Luck and happy shopping...
03-24-2006 | 11:47 AM
#20
Registered
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,473
Likes: 0
From: Diamond Bar, Ca
I have had Eibachs on my car for probably around 40,000 miles now. Do you guys feel that this spring would be a good match for this product, or should I consider purchasing another one? Possibly even just getting the spring that comes with the shock from Tokico?
03-25-2006 | 11:28 AM
#21
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
The Eibach's would work out very well. The spings I have are near the firmest on the market and another poster here is using the stock springs. We are both happy, and I'm sure the Eibach's and many other springs will be just in the middle. You will be very pleased with the ride, and the adjustability of the the D-specs can help you find a nice balance point with your spring rates.
I read some posters were having issues with Eibach's and Koni's when matched together. That thread went around 1-2 months ago. Don't have any clue what the real result is, but I think it had something to do with uneven ride height from front to back. (You may want to do a search as my memory may be failing me.)
Long story short is that my H&R's have an even drop at all 4 coreners. If the Eibach's also claim an even drop, your car should sit level, just like mine. (or close enough to level)
The Teins have an uneven drop and I wonder how the car sits after those are installed. (1.4" in front and 0.7" in rear) If anyone had any input on the Tein's, I'd be curious to know the results...
I read some posters were having issues with Eibach's and Koni's when matched together. That thread went around 1-2 months ago. Don't have any clue what the real result is, but I think it had something to do with uneven ride height from front to back. (You may want to do a search as my memory may be failing me.)
Long story short is that my H&R's have an even drop at all 4 coreners. If the Eibach's also claim an even drop, your car should sit level, just like mine. (or close enough to level)
The Teins have an uneven drop and I wonder how the car sits after those are installed. (1.4" in front and 0.7" in rear) If anyone had any input on the Tein's, I'd be curious to know the results...
03-25-2006 | 01:43 PM
#22
Original Turbo 'd Auto !!
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
Likes: 4
From: Surprise, Arizona
The front has the lower drop. 1.25- 1.3 in. the rears only drop the car .7 of an in. One posible reason the H&R's looked lower on the stock shocks is that the front was preloaded when the two top bolts on the top a arm were snugged down. It may now look more even all the way around because this time the front had no preload when the top bolts were snugged down.
Just a guess, since I don't know how the spring/shocks were installed.
The ride on Tien's is way better than the stock shocks because the better damping control over the springs. This really shows when riding over train tracks and crack in the road that have been filled with tar sealer.
Since the springs have a diffrent rate of drop front vs. rear, it give the stance a little agressive rake to it.
Now if the front bumper didn't look so happy.
I'm always smiling driving my 8.
Just a guess, since I don't know how the spring/shocks were installed.
The ride on Tien's is way better than the stock shocks because the better damping control over the springs. This really shows when riding over train tracks and crack in the road that have been filled with tar sealer.
Since the springs have a diffrent rate of drop front vs. rear, it give the stance a little agressive rake to it.
Now if the front bumper didn't look so happy.
I'm always smiling driving my 8.
Originally Posted by iridearocket
Hey 09Factor...
I heard the Teins have a lower drop in the front (or rear... can't remember which?). Does your car sit level? The reason I ask, is becuase I have the H&R's which claim an even drop at all corners. When I had the H&R springs put on with the stock shocks, the wheel gap at the front appeared slightly lower. (top of wheel relative to fender, viewed from the side of the car) Now that the H&R's are matched up with the D-specs, the car appears more level, when looking at the side of the car, but acually measures about 1/4 higher in the front. If springs offer a different drop on the front vs rear, it makes me wonder how the car will sit when all is said and done? If you have any input, I'm curious....
At first, I was reluctant to go too soft with the D-spec settings becuase I like a very firm ride, but I have to say, at 5 turns out the car drives like a dream on the road and handles very well. Much better than my stock setup, although that may be becuase the H&R springs I have are too firm for the stock dampening. In fact, the D-specs even at 7 turns out are still much better and hold a firmer and more predictable ride than my stock shocks with 25,000mi on them. I would fare a guess to say that the stock shocks, when they were brand new, might be close to the damping of the D-specs at 7 turns out. (full soft)
Having the adjustability on all 4 wheels allows you to turn the car from a comforable sport position to a really planted and abrasive ride. At full hard, the body practically moves up and down with the tires... Having adjustability on the fronts only, will only let you compensate for under/oversteer, but does not give you that ability to change the animal behind the wheel.
Regardless, you must be lovin' the setup. I have a smile on my face evertime I go anywhere...
I heard the Teins have a lower drop in the front (or rear... can't remember which?). Does your car sit level? The reason I ask, is becuase I have the H&R's which claim an even drop at all corners. When I had the H&R springs put on with the stock shocks, the wheel gap at the front appeared slightly lower. (top of wheel relative to fender, viewed from the side of the car) Now that the H&R's are matched up with the D-specs, the car appears more level, when looking at the side of the car, but acually measures about 1/4 higher in the front. If springs offer a different drop on the front vs rear, it makes me wonder how the car will sit when all is said and done? If you have any input, I'm curious....
At first, I was reluctant to go too soft with the D-spec settings becuase I like a very firm ride, but I have to say, at 5 turns out the car drives like a dream on the road and handles very well. Much better than my stock setup, although that may be becuase the H&R springs I have are too firm for the stock dampening. In fact, the D-specs even at 7 turns out are still much better and hold a firmer and more predictable ride than my stock shocks with 25,000mi on them. I would fare a guess to say that the stock shocks, when they were brand new, might be close to the damping of the D-specs at 7 turns out. (full soft)
Having the adjustability on all 4 wheels allows you to turn the car from a comforable sport position to a really planted and abrasive ride. At full hard, the body practically moves up and down with the tires... Having adjustability on the fronts only, will only let you compensate for under/oversteer, but does not give you that ability to change the animal behind the wheel.
Regardless, you must be lovin' the setup. I have a smile on my face evertime I go anywhere...
Last edited by 09Factor; 03-25-2006 at 01:49 PM.
03-30-2006 | 12:52 PM
#23
How are you guys handling the adjustment of the rear shocks?
I don't see any way to fiddle with the adjuster without taking the whole assembly back out of the car.
Is there a secret way to get to the adjuster while it is installed?
I don't see any way to fiddle with the adjuster without taking the whole assembly back out of the car.
Is there a secret way to get to the adjuster while it is installed?
03-30-2006 | 12:56 PM
#24
Yes, you have to buy the adjustment cables. Racing Beat sells them for $30. See my post in the DIY section (the lowering springs install thread) for some advice on how to intall them, as they are a bit of a pain.
03-30-2006 | 01:08 PM
#25
Ugh. I guess I'll just set my rears to 4 and see how it goes for now.
You know, I've had those assemblies out 2 or 3 times now and you would think that I should have realized this before I took them out to put in the Tokicos.
Maybe I'll enlarge one of the holes near the shock box...
You know, I've had those assemblies out 2 or 3 times now and you would think that I should have realized this before I took them out to put in the Tokicos.
Maybe I'll enlarge one of the holes near the shock box...